Patch 1.2 Paladins

[arkane83]

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

Active buffs overwrite/suppress like buffs

 

Example:

 

If you use that fighter buff with mirror images on a battlemage, the game will take the higher of the two deflection bonuses and use that. Passives, on the other hand, can be freely combined with no bonus suppression.

 

Everything on the right hand side of your skill tree when you level is a passive. Those abilities do not suppress each other or actives. Everything on the left is active. Those things do not stack with each other, but stack with the passives.

 

Deep Faith is a passive and way more versatile than Vigorous Defensive because Deep Faith can be combined with any deflection bonus (including VD). Vigorous Defense, on the other hand, gets suppressed by any other active ability that provides the same bonus.

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

Deep Faith + Mirror Images does work. Both deflection bonuses stack!

Edited July 5, 2018 by arkane83

[no1fanboy]

mirror image is crap anyway it goes after one or two hits

 

does arcane veil stack with vigourous defense for the fighter?

[Veolfen]

 

 

The word Paladins and great damage dealers dont belong in the same sentence

 

Neither do a ranger and a pet if we're going by classic CRPG/D&D standards (eh, there was the beastmaster subclass, but pet+ranged was hardly class-defining). Paladins have been able to alternate between off-tanking and solid DPS since PoE1.

 

I would have thought that currently in terms of DPS in Deadfire:

 

1. Rogue.

2. Monk

3. Wizard

4.Druid

5. Barbarian

6. Cipher

7. Ranger

fighter

8. Priest

9 . Paladin

 

I putting priest above paladin becasue they get holy fire, shining beacon

 

 

Fighter has less dps than Paladin and actual no potential once every member of the party reach level 10 and +

 

Paladin on the other hand can be insane with fire focus dps. And they are also overall tankier than fighter at level 10 and + too.

 

In any case, you shouldn't compare to fighter in the end : they are both not the best dps at all. 

 

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

 

Lay on hands is better than unbending

 

 

Anyway, both classes, and many other classes need a good look at their mid to endgame abilities anyway.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Veolfen

[arkane83]

mirror image is crap anyway it goes after one or two hits

 

does arcane veil stack with vigourous defense for the fighter?

No. Vigorous Defense and Arcane Veil are both actives so the deflection bonus gets suppressed (takes highest of the two). A little more complex because arcane veil is weak vs firearms, in which case VD lower deflection gets used.

 

AV fully stacks with paladins deep faith.

[arkane83]

This build is from two major patches ago; however, it should give you some ideas of how to stack defenses for insanely good effect:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/100521-class-build-solo-arcane-knight-what-happens-when-you-have-210-deflection/

[Veolfen]

Also the Paladins had 100% zeal recovery on kills and now it's 25% on kills.

25% on kills is still nice.

Meanwhile Fighter is at 10% chance to recover 1 when he take a crit lol. At best it happens once in 3 to 5 fights.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Veolfen

[Anaeme]

This build is from two major patches ago; however, it should give you some ideas of how to stack defenses for insanely good effect:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/100521-class-build-solo-arcane-knight-what-happens-when-you-have-210-deflection/

 

Less than half of the character deflection score is attributable to Paladin defenses.

[arkane83]

 

This build is from two major patches ago; however, it should give you some ideas of how to stack defenses for insanely good effect:

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/100521-class-build-solo-arcane-knight-what-happens-when-you-have-210-deflection/

 

Less than half of the character deflection score is attributable to Paladin defenses.

 

 

 

See, the thing is with defenses, each new point is more valuable than the last point. I actually have a thread about attack versus defense in the character builds forum.  Even though it looks like only 10% of his defense is from being a paladin, the fact that there isn't any other passive that does the exact same thing so that it can stack with wizard double is why there is so much value to those 21 points.

 

Those 21 points of deflection are arguably worth more than any other deflection he gets.  if you lose those 21 points he becomes quite able to be hit (grazed) which quickly loses the points from wizard's double. Everyone gets deflection from their class and level. Before you can even begin to analyze the relative value of that buff, you MUST take the base class and level deflection points out of your consideration. Accuracy and deflection are subtracted in the attack roll. That means that the baseline stuff is just a character level gateway. Essentially, the first 77 points of deflection make you a max level character. At lower levels both you and your enemies get less of those points making it a zero sum! He has a deflection of 212 with that build. 77 of those points have little to do with how you actually build your character (most classes have a base deflection of 20). That leaves 135 points from attributes, gear, consumables, and abilities. 

 

Abilities comprise about half of those 135 points. 40 from wizard's double, 21 from deep faith, and 6 from weapon and shield style. That is 67 points from his ability selections. The other 68 are from his gear selection, attributes and consumables. Wizard's double is very unreliable if you don't hit that 70 point deflection advantage cap. Putting that build aside for a second, go and browse deflection buffs on the various character classes. 21 is a tremendous amount for a passive. Its even more than some of the active abilities without actually having to use an ability. Oh... and it stacks with those active abilities (thus his build )

[araj123]

 

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

Active buffs overwrite/suppress like buffs

 

Example:

 

If you use that fighter buff with mirror images on a battlemage, the game will take the higher of the two deflection bonuses and use that. Passives, on the other hand, can be freely combined with no bonus suppression.

 

Everything on the right hand side of your skill tree when you level is a passive. Those abilities do not suppress each other or actives. Everything on the left is active. Those things do not stack with each other, but stack with the passives.

 

Deep Faith is a passive and way more versatile than Vigorous Defensive because Deep Faith can be combined with any deflection bonus (including VD). Vigorous Defense, on the other hand, gets suppressed by any other active ability that provides the same bonus.

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

Deep Faith + Mirror Images does work. Both deflection bonuses stack!

 

 

Is that really how it works? Cause i am pretty sure Llengraths Safeguard or Circle of Protection does stack with other actives such as Arcane Veil etc.

 

Although Llengraths and Circle of Prot dont stack with each other. Perhaps because they both add to all defenses?

Edited July 5, 2018 by araj123

[Anaeme]

 

 

See, the thing is with defenses, each new point is more valuable than the last point. I actually have a thread about attack versus defense in the character builds forum.  Even though it looks like only 10% of his defense is from being a paladin, the fact that there isn't any other passive that does the exact same thing so that it can stack with wizard double is why there is so much value to those 21 points.

 

Those 21 points of deflection are arguably worth more than any other deflection he gets.  if you lose those 21 points he becomes quite able to be hit (grazed) which quickly loses the points from wizard's double. Everyone gets deflection from their class and level. Before you can even begin to analyze the relative value of that buff, you MUST take the base class and level deflection points out of your consideration. Accuracy and deflection are subtracted in the attack roll. That means that the baseline stuff is just a character level gateway. Essentially, the first 77 points of deflection make you a max level character. At lower levels both you and your enemies get less of those points making it a zero sum! He has a deflection of 212 with that build. 77 of those points have little to do with how you actually build your character (most classes have a base deflection of 20). That leaves 135 points from attributes, gear, consumables, and abilities. 

 

Abilities comprise about half of those 135 points. 40 from wizard's double, 21 from deep faith, and 6 from weapon and shield style. That is 67 points from his ability selections. The other 68 are from his gear selection, attributes and consumables. Wizard's double is very unreliable if you don't hit that 70 point deflection advantage cap. Putting that build aside for a second, go and browse deflection buffs on the various character classes. 21 is a tremendous amount for a passive. Its even more than some of the active abilities without actually having to use an ability. Oh... and it stacks with those active abilities (thus his build )

 

 

 

This multi classed Arcane Knight should be compared with the myriad of other multi class builds that one can build focused on defense. I am focused here  on addressing the issues with the single classed Paladin 

Edited July 5, 2018 by Anaeme

[Dorftek]

 

 

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

Active buffs overwrite/suppress like buffs

 

Example:

 

If you use that fighter buff with mirror images on a battlemage, the game will take the higher of the two deflection bonuses and use that. Passives, on the other hand, can be freely combined with no bonus suppression.

 

Everything on the right hand side of your skill tree when you level is a passive. Those abilities do not suppress each other or actives. Everything on the left is active. Those things do not stack with each other, but stack with the passives.

 

Deep Faith is a passive and way more versatile than Vigorous Defensive because Deep Faith can be combined with any deflection bonus (including VD). Vigorous Defense, on the other hand, gets suppressed by any other active ability that provides the same bonus.

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

Deep Faith + Mirror Images does work. Both deflection bonuses stack!

Is that really how it works? Cause i am pretty sure Llengraths Safeguard or Circle of Protection does stack with other actives such as Arcane Veil etc.

 

Although Llengraths and Circle of Prot dont stack with each other. Perhaps because they both add to all defenses?

Yeah I also noticed that circle of protection stack with other actives. Not sure why this one is an exception tho

[hilfazer]

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

 

Sounds like a bug since bonuses are different.

[arkane83]

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

Sounds like a bug since bonuses are different.

If the + all stacks with any of the specific + defenses it would be an oversight. They are not supposed to stack. Everything else that's active and has an overlap in part of its effect suppresses that part.

[Marigoldran]

Paladin is awful as a single class and really really good as a multi.  

[djinnxy]

Ok. I stand corrected. I consoled a level 20 paladin and full gear to test. Single class paladin is not all that great. If you're looking for something with solo potential I'd move on to another class after 1.2. In a party it's still viable. One of the other melee classes would be a far far superior choice.

[no1fanboy]

 

 

define overwritten?

 

fighter gets unbending aswel

Active buffs overwrite/suppress like buffs

 

Example:

 

If you use that fighter buff with mirror images on a battlemage, the game will take the higher of the two deflection bonuses and use that. Passives, on the other hand, can be freely combined with no bonus suppression.

 

Everything on the right hand side of your skill tree when you level is a passive. Those abilities do not suppress each other or actives. Everything on the left is active. Those things do not stack with each other, but stack with the passives.

 

Deep Faith is a passive and way more versatile than Vigorous Defensive because Deep Faith can be combined with any deflection bonus (including VD). Vigorous Defense, on the other hand, gets suppressed by any other active ability that provides the same bonus.

 

Vigourus Defense + Mirror Images does not fully work. You only get one of the bonuses to deflection

 

Deep Faith + Mirror Images does work. Both deflection bonuses stack!

 

 

Is that really how it works? Cause i am pretty sure Llengraths Safeguard or Circle of Protection does stack with other actives such as Arcane Veil etc.

 

Although Llengraths and Circle of Prot dont stack with each other. Perhaps because they both add to all defenses?

 

can anyone confirm this? this is pretty big deal 

 

If arcane veil stacks with vigorous defence i hate to say it but IMO fighter/ mages are better tanks then paladin/mage because fighters get unbending untop of that. 

 

There is no way in hell anything in the game will beat arcane veil + vigourous defence + unbending

Edited July 6, 2018 by no1fanboy

[Manveru123]

Unbending is not worth its cost after the nerf.

 

#balanceGO

[no1fanboy]

the upgraded version is 33%

 

there is no druid, cipher, priest, wizard buff in the game that lets you turn 33% of you damage into healing

 

it is far and away the most powerful buff in the game 

Edited July 6, 2018 by no1fanboy

[Manveru123]

33% ain't much, Paladins have Lay on Hands which is a much cheaper, spammable heal ;p Not to mention, with Vigorous Defenses and Unbending you are very limited by resources, while Paladins have passive bonus to defenses.

[Veolfen]

33% ain't much, Paladins have Lay on Hands which is a much cheaper, spammable heal ;p Not to mention, with Vigorous Defenses and Unbending you are very limited by resources, while Paladins have passive bonus to defenses.

Exactly : Vigorous defensing + unbending = 4 discipline cost

Paladin passive + lay on hands = 1 cost + better heal

[no1fanboy]

I hate to state the obvious here but lay on hands is a healing ability 

 

why are you even talking about it

[grasida]

I don't want to state my opinion either way because I've only played paladins a little, but it's perfectly fair to compare lay on hands with unbending. The important thing is how many times the enemies have to swing in your direction before you keel over. Both abilities make that number go up by a lot. The fact that lay on hands can be used on other party members is just a point in its favor, not a reason that it can't be compared.

[no1fanboy]

So now we are having an arguement about healers?

 

Not about the best tank in the the game?

 

Are we on the same planet here?

 

I live on planet earth. Are you on earth?

[grasida]

You missed the point. You're making an argument based on flavor and on how you perceive abilities, not on how they function. Let's imagine three characters in a video game. They all have 100 health and deal the same damage. One takes 1/2 damage from everything. The second has a heal over time spell that restores 5 hp per turn. The third takes normal damage. In flavor, one is a "tank" and the second is a "healer" and the third is a support build. But now lets imagine that an enemy comes along and attacks for 10 damage per turn:

 

Character 1 takes 5 damage per hit  and dies in 20 turns.

Character 2 takes ten damage per hit, heals himself for 5 every turn and dies in 20 turns.

Character 3 takes 10 damage per turn and dies in 10 turns.

 

What is the difference between characters 1 and 2? Functionally, they are the same. It doesn't matter that unbending is flavored as defensive buff and lay on hands is flavored as a heal. If we can agree that the overall offensive and defensive capabilities of fighters and paladins are pretty comparable outside of these two powers, which is what people here have been saying, then it's perfectly fair to compare them. They both increase the number of hits until death regardless of how they are flavored.

 

I played a lifegiver that could take significant punishment just because she healed faster than enemies could damage her. She went down the least number of times in my party. The number of times enemies had to attack her until she died was high. Even though the enemies couldn't kill her, was she not a tank just because she also made it hard for the rest of the party to die too?

Edited July 6, 2018 by grasida

[arkane83]

You missed the point. You're making an argument based on flavor and on how you perceive abilities, not on how they function. Let's imagine three characters in a video game. They all have 100 health and deal the same damage. One takes 1/2 damage from everything. The second has a heal over time spell that restores 5 hp per turn. The third takes normal damage. In flavor, one is a "tank" and the second is a "healer" and the third is a support build. But now lets imagine that an enemy comes along and attacks for 10 damage per turn:

 

Character 1 takes 5 damage per hit and dies in 20 turns.

Character 2 takes ten damage per hit, heals himself for 5 every turn and dies in 20 turns.

Character 3 takes 10 damage per turn and dies in 10 turns.

 

What is the difference between characters 1 and 2? Functionally, they are the same. It doesn't matter that unbending is flavored as defensive buff and lay on hands is flavored as a heal. If we can agree that the overall offensive and defensive capabilities of fighters and paladins are pretty comparable outside of these two powers, which is what people here have been saying, then it's perfectly fair to compare them. They both increase the number of hits until death regardless of how they are flavored.

 

I played a lifegiver that could take significant punishment just because she healed faster than enemies could damage her. She went down the least number of times in my party. The number of times enemies had to attack her until she died was high. Even though the enemies couldn't kill her, was she not a tank just because she also made it hard for the rest of the party to die too?

Character 4 is a blend of 1 and 2 (Crusader or Herald) takes 5 damage per hit, heals 5 per turn, and trivializes all of the content in the game.

 

Just wanted to bring the conversation back to:

 

Paladins are overpowered as a multi class and are also slightly underpowered as a single class. I think they need some love on the higher tier abilities