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I really hope the main story line could be extended.

Although the game is quite good with vocal performance.

But not only BG2, but NWN2 could also full fill the role play atmosphere when PoE2 couldn't.

 

Please don't make the side quests taking place of main quest, it's just weird if you really enjoy the Role Play.

Edited by Julymio

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Conversly Pillars npcs are written as people. You can't sum them up in one sentence

"They are dumb". Hope it helped.

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Anything in PnP form with a decent GM. No video game can hold a candle to your imagination, good companions, and snacks.

 

 

But the group never does what you want i.e. stupid companion AI

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Conversly Pillars npcs are written as people. You can't sum them up in one sentence

"They are dumb". Hope it helped.

 

 

How so? I don't think that's a very good argument. But then, you were probably joking.

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Going back to the character depth argument, I think a big part of it is that the BG2 npcs are written as characters. They all have obvious, exaggerated personality quirks that slots nicely into existing fantasy molds, while bucking specific aspects of those molds. Keldorn is mostly a straight laced paladin, but has home troubles because of his dedication to his church over his family. Mazzy is the perfect ideal of a paladin who properly balances good vs. law and is pragmatic enough to work well with different alingments, but is not allowed to actually be a paladin because of racism. Minsc is your standard superhero archetype, always following good actions and protecting other people, but has a disability and requires guidance from someone more level headed.

 

Conversly Pillars npcs are written as people. You can't sum them up in one sentence and they don't have any exaggerated quirks or flaws. THey are just people. And in gengeral, real people just aren't all that interesting. You interact with people every day, so less of an impression is left. Eder and Sagani are the only really interesting characters from PoE1 for me.

 

I agree with the contrast you're sketching, but not with the conclusion. As a rule, I find real people to be considerably more interesting than larger than life fictional ones (they have much better graphics too, most people are very realistically rendered!). Fiction of course has an inherent advantage of being able to show you aspects of people that in real life you often wouldn't have (direct) access to at all and/or would learn about much more slowly. And additionally that you don't actually interact directly with them, which handily gets around the fact that some people can be both interesting and deeply unpleasant to be around at the same time. But fundamentally, I would say that the aspects that make people interesting in real life and in fiction are fundamentally the same. To me, anyway.

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I would like to see that too but unfortunately the current system in PoE2 makes it all too easy to please NPCs in the party and unless you're going out of your way to make them angry they will like you no matter what. All you have to do is pick some humorous lines and chances are most will approve.

 

Not saying BG2 did it better since without being so elaborate it was roughly the same thing (some NPCs would leave if you made some choices but there were ways to cope with that). 

 

All in all I do find it particularly odd that Deadfire doesn't take into account a character's allegiance as much as we would be let to expect it to. For instance raiding ships belonging to a faction to which an NPC has dedicated his or her life should entail some sort of consequence or at the very least some form of acknowledgement and that's simply not the case here. 

 

This being the no spoiler forum I won't elaborate but I do believe that in order to have some deeper interaction with NPCs there needs to be some extra verisimilitude when it comes to an NPC's allegiance and life choices. 

 

 

Yeah, definitely a greater degree of consistency would be good. Not just have a single score, with the good cancelling out the bad. Not that it necessarily has to devolve into an overly simplistic ultimatum of some sort where they decide to leave of course, that tends to be annoying as well. In some cases that's clearly warranted, if you do something that clearly goes against their fiber, but for it to really be immersive I'd say it needs more range. They may set aside their dislike of the main character (maybe they're quite religious and you keep mocking their faith or something) and stick around for a greater good, but still express that dislike in various other ways (preferably ones that do actually affect gameplay as well). 

 

Though conversely I'd argue that the disposition system could maybe do with more of a "two extremes of a single axis" kind of thing, because as it stands the ability to be known as both the spirit of benevolence and viciously cruel at the same time is a bit... odd. Would be even better if that's actually worked in in a more complex way, but I'd say opposite dispositions at least to some extent cancelling each other out would be better than what it is now.

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Hands down to the OP of this thread, he is a Grand-Master troll.

 

With the bare minimum effort of 2 posts, he turned this thread into 15 pages of void, meaningless and pointless "discussion".

Edited by OrpheusM
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Hands down to the OP of this thread, he is a Grand-Master troll.

 

With the bare minimum effort of 2 posts, he turned this thread into 15 pages of void, meaningless and pointless "discussion".

 

Yet you read it all and commented. Kooky. Anyway, please stay on topic and refrain from name calling. :yes:

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image,Gfted1,black,red.png

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Superb comeback from @Gfted1, props for that! Loved it.

 

I think the discussion has been interesting, and I've learned to look at both BG2 and the PoE franchise from a couple of new perspectives. That's pretty good, I would say.

 

(Obviously, though, it's not as good as mindlessly insulting other people.)

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I would like to see that too but unfortunately the current system in PoE2 makes it all too easy to please NPCs in the party and unless you're going out of your way to make them angry they will like you no matter what. All you have to do is pick some humorous lines and chances are most will approve.

 

Not saying BG2 did it better since without being so elaborate it was roughly the same thing (some NPCs would leave if you made some choices but there were ways to cope with that). 

 

All in all I do find it particularly odd that Deadfire doesn't take into account a character's allegiance as much as we would be let to expect it to. For instance raiding ships belonging to a faction to which an NPC has dedicated his or her life should entail some sort of consequence or at the very least some form of acknowledgement and that's simply not the case here. 

 

This being the no spoiler forum I won't elaborate but I do believe that in order to have some deeper interaction with NPCs there needs to be some extra verisimilitude when it comes to an NPC's allegiance and life choices. 

 

 

Yeah, definitely a greater degree of consistency would be good. Not just have a single score, with the good cancelling out the bad. Not that it necessarily has to devolve into an overly simplistic ultimatum of some sort where they decide to leave of course, that tends to be annoying as well. In some cases that's clearly warranted, if you do something that clearly goes against their fiber, but for it to really be immersive I'd say it needs more range. They may set aside their dislike of the main character (maybe they're quite religious and you keep mocking their faith or something) and stick around for a greater good, but still express that dislike in various other ways (preferably ones that do actually affect gameplay as well). 

 

Though conversely I'd argue that the disposition system could maybe do with more of a "two extremes of a single axis" kind of thing, because as it stands the ability to be known as both the spirit of benevolence and viciously cruel at the same time is a bit... odd. Would be even better if that's actually worked in in a more complex way, but I'd say opposite dispositions at least to some extent cancelling each other out would be better than what it is now.

 

 

That always bugged me about Pillars and I was disappointed to see it largely remained in Deadfire.  Reputation would work best as a weighted average of two opposing factors, with a lot of gray area.  Kick a few puppies, give a few beggars some money... you're neither cruel nor benevolent, you're somewhere in that gray area.  You don't have 2 points of benevolent and 3 points in cruel, you'd be at like 0.5 in one direction or the other.  But if you do enough stuff to tip the scales in either direction, it takes increasingly more effort to tip them back to neutral - as a sort of way of representing your reputation as it's known by the people you interact with.  I would then, also, have it be completely binary - you are either benevolent, or you are not.  You are either cruel, or you are not.  You aren't Benevolent 5x, or Cruel 2x, you are just Benevolent or Cruel.  This would, of course, still be calculated with integer values, and those values could be displayed to the player or not (maybe an expert mode thing, where they're obfuscated in it but you can view it directly without.)

 

Basically, you have a system that has a sort of inertia that must be overcome.  It takes a lot of effort to tip the scales at all, and once they ARE tipped in one direction, it takes even more effort to get them back to even, much less change them entirely.  This certainly makes a lot more intuitive and rational sense than the current system, although it would be a lot more complex to design and explain to the player - so maybe that's why we have the current system.

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That always bugged me about Pillars and I was disappointed to see it largely remained in Deadfire.  Reputation would work best as a weighted average of two opposing factors, with a lot of gray area.  Kick a few puppies, give a few beggars some money... you're neither cruel nor benevolent, you're somewhere in that gray area.  You don't have 2 points of benevolent and 3 points in cruel, you'd be at like 0.5 in one direction or the other.  But if you do enough stuff to tip the scales in either direction, it takes increasingly more effort to tip them back to neutral - as a sort of way of representing your reputation as it's known by the people you interact with.  I would then, also, have it be completely binary - you are either benevolent, or you are not.  You are either cruel, or you are not.  You aren't Benevolent 5x, or Cruel 2x, you are just Benevolent or Cruel.  This would, of course, still be calculated with integer values, and those values could be displayed to the player or not (maybe an expert mode thing, where they're obfuscated in it but you can view it directly without.)

 

Basically, you have a system that has a sort of inertia that must be overcome.  It takes a lot of effort to tip the scales at all, and once they ARE tipped in one direction, it takes even more effort to get them back to even, much less change them entirely.  This certainly makes a lot more intuitive and rational sense than the current system, although it would be a lot more complex to design and explain to the player - so maybe that's why we have the current system.

 

 

I'll try to defend the current system - not because I think it is very good, just providing some counterpoints.

 

Reputation doesn't say that you are a cruel or a benevolent person. It has nothing to do with what kind of person you are. It represents what people have heard about you.

Person A has heard that you are cruel because you have killed somebody in the past. Person B has heard that you are benevolent because you have helped someone in the past. Your score of 1x Cruel and 1x Benevolent represents that. Both persons can react to you - depending on what they have heard about you (or what is more important to them).

With a single scale you would be zero on that scale (neither benevolent, nor cruel) and as a result reactions based on you being cruel or benevolent won't fire at all. 

Edited by wih

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I'll try to defend the current system - not because I think it is very good, just providing some counterpoints.

 

Reputation doesn't say that you are a cruel or a benevolent person. It has nothing to do with what kind of person you are. It represents what people have heard about you.

Person A has heard that you are cruel because you have killed somebody in the past. Person B has heard that you are benevolent because you have helped someone in the past. Your score of 1x Cruel and 1x Benevolent represents that. Both persons can react to you - depending on what they have heard about you (or what is more important to them).

With a single scale you would be zero on that scale (neither benevolent, nor cruel) and as a result reactions based on you being cruel or benevolent won't fire at all. 

 

 

It is kind of funny, though, that even though we are living in a sort-of medieval world, everybody in it will know everything you have done the moment you do it. Even if you do it deep in a dungeon with nobody alive anywhere near you.

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It is kind of funny, though, that even though we are living in a sort-of medieval world, everybody in it will know everything you have done the moment you do it. Even if you do it deep in a dungeon with nobody alive anywhere near you.

 

 

To be fair, most of the times they don't appear to know it the moment it is done, but the moment you first return to their area. Which can be hours or days later. But word of mouth indeed travels quickly in these RPGs. NPCs can wait for you indefinitely to solve their quest but when you finally do -  someone brings the good news to them faster than you can return to them. Maybe they use horses.

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It is kind of funny, though, that even though we are living in a sort-of medieval world, everybody in it will know everything you have done the moment you do it. Even if you do it deep in a dungeon with nobody alive anywhere near you.

 

 

To be fair, most of the times they don't appear to know it the moment it is done, but the moment you first return to their area. Which can be hours or days later. But word of mouth indeed travels quickly in these RPGs. NPCs can wait for you indefinitely to solve their quest but when you finally do -  someone brings the good news to them faster than you can return to them. Maybe they use horses.

 

 

Good point. I'm not entirely sure how this should be solved, but it definitely is strange. Nothing at all happens independent of you, the whole world will wait for you to do something, and when you do, knowledge of what you did will instantly spread through the game world.

 

I think there was mod for BG2 where they tried to split the reputation system in two: there was reputation, which is pretty much self-explanatory, and then there was virtue (if I remember correctly), which was a more objective measure of how you had actually done. So you could be a complete monster but look saintly, if you pulled the right strings.

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I think there was mod for BG2 where they tried to split the reputation system in two: there was reputation, which is pretty much self-explanatory, and then there was virtue (if I remember correctly), which was a more objective measure of how you had actually done. So you could be a complete monster but look saintly, if you pulled the right strings.

Yeah the mod's called Virtue. It adds a "virtue" scale which represents how "right" you are. Party members will mostly react to this scale instead of the reputation scale. And reputation only mostly affects neutral NPCs' reaction. IIRC evil companions still get annoyed if your reputation's too high, but they only leave if you're too righteous. Vice versa for good ones. Basically you can do evil things and no one will know about it except your party members, so your reputation does not go down, but your virtue does.

 

There was a slight problem with party member's current action being interrupted by a reaction to virtue (pretty big problem during combat, actually), but generally it's a very well thought-out and well implemented mod. I really liked it.

 

One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

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One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

Eh...When comparing mods, it's very unfair to Infinty Engine games to Bethesda games. I mean, I see what you're trying to do but if we're being honest, Bethesda's modding community is worlds ahead and better than any Infinity Engine game's modding community, so much though that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning BG2's mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now...

 

 

 

About Infinity Engine mods, there's another reason why they're not worth mentioning. None of them drastically change gameplay or experience of the games BUT we do have the Enhanced Editions which strangely I don't see people mentioning here.

Edited by SonicMage117

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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Going back to the character depth argument, I think a big part of it is that the BG2 npcs are written as characters. They all have obvious, exaggerated personality quirks that slots nicely into existing fantasy molds, while bucking specific aspects of those molds. Keldorn is mostly a straight laced paladin, but has home troubles because of his dedication to his church over his family. Mazzy is the perfect ideal of a paladin who properly balances good vs. law and is pragmatic enough to work well with different alingments, but is not allowed to actually be a paladin because of racism. Minsc is your standard superhero archetype, always following good actions and protecting other people, but has a disability and requires guidance from someone more level headed.

 

Conversly Pillars npcs are written as people. You can't sum them up in one sentence and they don't have any exaggerated quirks or flaws. THey are just people. And in gengeral, real people just aren't all that interesting. You interact with people every day, so less of an impression is left. Eder and Sagani are the only really interesting characters from PoE1 for me.

 

I agree with the contrast you're sketching, but not with the conclusion. As a rule, I find real people to be considerably more interesting than larger than life fictional ones (they have much better graphics too, most people are very realistically rendered!). Fiction of course has an inherent advantage of being able to show you aspects of people that in real life you often wouldn't have (direct) access to at all and/or would learn about much more slowly. And additionally that you don't actually interact directly with them, which handily gets around the fact that some people can be both interesting and deeply unpleasant to be around at the same time. But fundamentally, I would say that the aspects that make people interesting in real life and in fiction are fundamentally the same. To me, anyway.

 

Its very much a taste thing. I was replying in the context of poeple contesting that PoE npcs are "more complex" than BG2. They are, but that doesn't mean that PoE's characters are objectively better. Just built with a different philosophy.

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Think of the two games like two differing penises. They have different girths, lengths, ridges, veins, bumps, hairs, etc. people are gonna like em for different reasons. Some may want a longer experience and others a more curvy and unique experience.

The fact of the matter is, I don’t know where I was going with this.

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One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

Eh...When comparing mods, it's very unfair to Infinty Engine games to Bethesda games. I mean, I see what you're trying to do but if we're being honest, Bethesda's modding community is worlds ahead and better than any Infinity Engine game's modding community, so much though that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning BG2's mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now...

 

 

 

About Infinity Engine mods, there's another reason why they're not worth mentioning. None of them drastically change gameplay or experience of the games BUT we do have the Enhanced Editions which strangely I don't see people mentioning here.

 

 

... what?

 

Are you joking?  WeiDU mods DRAMATICALLY alter the game.  Entire, detailed NPCs with voice acting (Kelsey and Solaufein are the most popular, I believe) and romances.  Balance changes, AI changes, tactical changes, completely new, custom encounters or entire areas.  There are custom campaigns and total conversions.  There are "ease of use" mods that don't really affect balance but make the game a lot less annoying to play (such as making arrows stack to 999 instead of 20), many of which are incorporated into the enhanced editions by default.  Like... IE mods are huge, they're a big part of why BG2 was so good.

 

I'm hopeful that Deadfire modding will eventually reach that point.

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One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

Eh...When comparing mods, it's very unfair to Infinty Engine games to Bethesda games. I mean, I see what you're trying to do but if we're being honest, Bethesda's modding community is worlds ahead and better than any Infinity Engine game's modding community, so much though that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning BG2's mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now...

 

 

 

About Infinity Engine mods, there's another reason why they're not worth mentioning. None of them drastically change gameplay or experience of the games BUT we do have the Enhanced Editions which strangely I don't see people mentioning here.

I never see the point in using mods to justify saying a game is good. The game should always be judged on it's own, without mods. If a game comes with unfinished features, any model made to fix those features should never override how ****ty those original features were.

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One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

Eh...When comparing mods, it's very unfair to Infinty Engine games to Bethesda games. I mean, I see what you're trying to do but if we're being honest, Bethesda's modding community is worlds ahead and better than any Infinity Engine game's modding community, so much though that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning BG2's mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now...

 

 

 

About Infinity Engine mods, there's another reason why they're not worth mentioning. None of them drastically change gameplay or experience of the games BUT we do have the Enhanced Editions which strangely I don't see people mentioning here.

I never see the point in using mods to justify saying a game is good. The game should always be judged on it's own, without mods. If a game comes with unfinished features, any model made to fix those features should never override how ****ty those original features were.

 

 

Mods show what a game is capable of.  I think it's fair to compare modded BG2 with a game made easily more than 15 years since those mods were created and finalized (most are "dead," although some still get occasional bugfixes) and with far fewer technological limitations than BG2 - and possibly fewer financial limitations, too (I don't know how BG2's budget was, comparatively to Deadfire's.)

 

I just don't think there's any excuse for Deadfire's combat to be so shallow.  I don't think it needed BG2's overly complex 2E magic rules, but I think they could have improved the game quite a lot if they'd just taken a few cues from mods like SCS (which allowed the computer to literally cheat at times in order to compensate for the AI never going to be enough to match a human player) and maybe not thrown out the baby with the bathwater when it came to streamlining and simplifying things.

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First of all I do not use any mods at all except fan patches that fix things that are definitely bugs or restore cut content.

I do not care much about graphics ( I would buy deadfire now even if it had the BG2 graphics ) and I consider changing of game mechanics cheating.

This is my personal taste, you can play your game however you want.

 

So in this thread and in any future one I will compare game A vs game B only as the version you can buy it in a shop now.

So I compare BG2 ( the original game, not the EE, I dont have the EE ) with deadfire version 1.2 now or with the ultimate Edition when it is released ( last version of the game plus all expansions ).

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Which is a good point to make - it's not as visible in BG2 but when it comes to BG1 things are starting to get tricky. When you rate BG1 - are you referring to the vanilla game? BGT/BG:EE version? The version with NPCProject and Unfinished Business? Beacuse BGTrilogy (that converts BG1 campaign into BG 2 engine and ruleset), with NPCProject - that improves greatly upon content of sidekick-style companions from BG1 (all 25 of them), giving them all interjections, banters, questlines, expansive dialogue trees and for some even honking romances, Unfinished Business and SCS is a complete reimagination of what is now a rather clunky vanilla BG1. I usually run BGTrilogy with NPCProject, SCS (when it works), Unfinished Business and for BG2 (obligatorily) Ascension + some banter packs for funsies - and coming back to vanilla BG 1 was... rough, to say the least.

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One of the best things about BG2 is how mods can rectify almost all problems with it to an amazing degree, implementing new things, transforming it to a completely different game. Many modding techniques are easy to learn and you can mod your game according to your personal taste. Makes you wonder about the future of PoE2. Let's say mods are coming to it, but to what extent can they change this game? Is it possible to make it a whole different game like what people have done with BG games, or TES games, or Fallout games?

Eh...When comparing mods, it's very unfair to Infinty Engine games to Bethesda games. I mean, I see what you're trying to do but if we're being honest, Bethesda's modding community is worlds ahead and better than any Infinity Engine game's modding community, so much though that it wouldn't even be worth mentioning BG2's mods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now...

 

 

 

About Infinity Engine mods, there's another reason why they're not worth mentioning. None of them drastically change gameplay or experience of the games BUT we do have the Enhanced Editions which strangely I don't see people mentioning here.

I never see the point in using mods to justify saying a game is good. The game should always be judged on it's own, without mods. If a game comes with unfinished features, any model made to fix those features should never override how ****ty those original features were.
What's the worse is when people let their bias say one game is horrible for being unfinished unless it has mods but another umfinished game with mods is the greatest game ever just because they care for it. Bias proves just as bad a blinder as Nostalgia.

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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What's the worse is when people let their bias say one game is horrible for being unfinished unless it has mods but another umfinished game with mods is the greatest game ever just because they care for it. Bias proves just as bad a blinder as Nostalgia.

 

BG2 IS considered one of the greatest RPGs ever - pretty close to the top - and mods are NOT why that is so.

 

Whenever "mods" is mentioned all we have ever said is how they make the game(s) better. They are worth mentioning cause if you really play those games you know that mods are a big thing that is tied to the existence of the games. It's not that mods are the one reason why BG2 might be considered better than PoE2, and we all know this.

 

The questions I was throwing out earlier is: is there going to be the same kind of wonder in PoE2's case? How mod-friendly will it be? Will there be a dedicated modding community that will eventually transform the game into something much more amazing, polishing it to a much, much higher degree of shine?

 

Because, from my point of view, how strong the modding community of a game is demonstrates how much of an impact the vanilla game makes. How much potential the game really has,  which can be recognized by players/modders who are willing to put time and effort into bringing all that potential out. Basically, how much players really love the vanilla game. Look at the TES games or Bethesda's Fallout games, or The Witcher 3. I wasn't doing any comparison, and you don't have to COMPARE their modding activity with the IE games, how advanced or how big it is or whatnot. The common thing about those games AND the BG games, is that they all made a huge impact in gaming in general, and a large number of players love them. It's much, much easier to mod the BG games, compared to the others, that is true, but if people didn't love them, they wouldn't have cared about modding it so much even if it's easy as hell to do so. After 10 years, 15 years, people still work on modding the BG games as well as the modding tools. THAT is the kind of impact the BG games made.

 

So what kind of impact does PoE2 really makes? How easy will it be to mod it, if "modding" will even become a thing? And will we care enough about it to invest time and effort into polishing it? Will we be asking ourselves questions like "So what mods should I use with PoE2" or "What are the essential mods for this game" two, three years from now? I'm not challenging anyone to answer these questions, because time will answer me and I'm eager to find out.

Edited by try2handing
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