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Veolfen

Make single classes stronger : Fix power level

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Problem is :

 

You have a panel = 100 % of possibilities.

With Obsidian, 75 % of abilities are trash. There is also a lot of duplicate.

 

So with a multiclass, you can take the best of each panel.

 

Not the case for single class. So it is not 50 % - 50 %. And yes you have PL 8 and 9, but in fact, all of this is at the end of the game.

 

The most difficult part of the game is the start. At the start, multiclass is always better.

 

Result of the analysis :

 

1) Obsidian must improve trash abilities.

2) Obsidian must increase the number of choice of good abilities.

 

Poop - poop - poop - poop - poop - Gold

 

Gold - poop - poop / Gold - poop - poop

 

Single = Gold x1

Multi = Gold x2

 

And PL have not a real impact finally... Most of abilities arent concerned. Disciplined strike ? 25 % hit to crit in all cases...

 

You make a strong point: there's a bloat of useless skills in most classes, and this issue favors multiclass.. Swashbuckler is the extreme case here.

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single class need to be much stronger

especially early

when the multi have the most advantage

And MC will be even more stronger. You need to accept the asymetric progression. A single class unlock more powerfull abilities faster. A part of the problem is the usefulness of these abilities. Some times what you unlock isn't very interesting and early abilities stay the most interesting.

 

You can't just compare dps of martial classes. Because a MC will combine passives. So a fighter/rogue with sneak attack and deathblow will always do more dmg than a pure fighter. By combining passives you'll get bigger numbers.

 

But Veolfen, you should have tested a pure Paladin and compare. Because perhaps your problem isn't MC superior to single class, but more Paladin can do more dmg than a fighter? A fighter don't have the dmg bonus like a rogue or barbarian. Not all classes have to be equal in dps, not all martial abilities are about dps. People never take into account support, utility and team role.

 

Classes need more balances and some skills be buffed/reworked to be more interesting choices, specialy late abilities for some classes. Classes need to offer more interesting choices.

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single class need to be much stronger

especially early

when the multi have the most advantage

And MC will be even more stronger. You need to accept the asymetric progression. A single class unlock more powerfull abilities faster. A part of the problem is the usefulness of these abilities. Some times what you unlock isn't very interesting and early abilities stay the most interesting.

 

You can't just compare dps of martial classes. Because a MC will combine passives. So a fighter/rogue with sneak attack and deathblow will always do more dmg than a pure fighter. By combining passives you'll get bigger numbers.

 

But Veolfen, you should have tested a pure Paladin and compare. Because perhaps your problem isn't MC superior to single class, but more Paladin can do more dmg than a fighter? A fighter don't have the dmg bonus like a rogue or barbarian. Not all classes have to be equal in dps, not all martial abilities are about dps. People never take into account support, utility and team role.

 

Classes need more balances and some skills be buffed/reworked to be more interesting choices, specialy late abilities for some classes. Classes need to offer more interesting choices.

 

I think comparing fighter to swashbuckler is an excellent comparison. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to choose pure fighter over swashbuckler. A pure fighter is far far weaker than a swashbuckler. And what does swashbuckler lose when comparing to fighter? 1HP per level and some level 8/9 abilties that nobody uses. It gets all the benefits of fighter and all the damage from rogue. It's just dumb.
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Multi classing is the most enjoyable spice in the game.

 

It was designed with the idea in mind that there will probably be things that are objectively better than others (multi > single as it turns out).

 

I dont think one of the most enjoyable mechanics in the game should be discouraged.

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Yeah, it's not a question to nerf multiclassing than make single class more attractive. I think they need to take the time to rebalance the PL 6-9 of lot of classes. Even pl 6-7, because a single class character can spend more points at these PL, but some classes have a really weak PL6-7 tier, that make the single class less attractive. you have only the low level abilities, a passage of meh abilities and if you single class 1 or more 'good' pl 8-9 abilities. That make multiclassing far more optimal because you can avoid the dead zone of both classes.

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Multi classing is the most enjoyable spice in the game.

 

It was designed with the idea in mind that there will probably be things that are objectively better than others (multi > single as it turns out).

 

I dont think one of the most enjoyable mechanics in the game should be discouraged.

It's not about nerfing multi classing or making it less enjoyable. It's about single classes being considerably weaker and less enjoyable. And that should definitely change.
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I think comparing fighter to swashbuckler is an excellent comparison. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to choose pure fighter over swashbuckler. A pure fighter is far far weaker than a swashbuckler. And what does swashbuckler lose when comparing to fighter? 1HP per level and some level 8/9 abilties that nobody uses. It gets all the benefits of fighter and all the damage from rogue. It's just dumb.

 

That Fighter and Rogue high-level abilities sit comfortably deep into meh territory is the main issue here (along with the aforementioned bloat of meh low- and mid-tier abilities that make multiclassing attractive so you don't have to waste points on stuff that adds little to no value.) If I look at the Fighter tree, there's nothing past PL 7 that makes me say, "I want this."

 

Paladin is kind of in the middle ground. They have a good number of desirable abilities to spend points on in the early and mid game, but lose appeal at higher levels because the high-tier abilities are meh (perhaps not as much as the Fighter's, but they're not attractive enough to make me want to play a single-class Paladin.)

Edited by AndreaColombo
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I think comparing fighter to swashbuckler is an excellent comparison. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to choose pure fighter over swashbuckler. A pure fighter is far far weaker than a swashbuckler. And what does swashbuckler lose when comparing to fighter? 1HP per level and some level 8/9 abilties that nobody uses. It gets all the benefits of fighter and all the damage from rogue. It's just dumb.

 

That Fighter and Rogue high-level abilities sit comfortably deep into meh territory is the main issue here (along with the aforementioned bloat of meh low- and mid-tier abilities that make multiclassing attractive so you don't have to waste points on stuff that adds little to no value.) If I look at the Fighter tree, there's nothing past PL 7 that makes me say, "I want this."

 

Paladin is kind of in the middle ground. They have a good number of desirable abilities to spend points on in the early and mid game, but lose appeal at higher levels because the high-tier abilities are meh (perhaps not as much as the Fighter's, but they're not attractive enough to make me want to play a single-class Paladin.)

 

That's the main problem of a lot of single classes :

 

High level abilities aren't giving the "i want this" feeling. 

 

Combined with the fact Balthazar pointed out, that multiclass gives the opportunity to pick good tools from both classes, feeling the gaps you have when a class gives ****ty stuff.

 

+ The combination of bonuses making a multiclass more powerful even tho it has less power level (and also a multiclass can use more abilities)

 

+ Since power level 9 is quite useless compared to 7 on many single classes since it's effects are poor on many abilites, especially for martial artists.

 

 

While multiclass is supposed to be stronger and funnier, that doesn't mean a single class has to be that low compared to them, even tho they hold their own "decently" since it's a pve game.

 

 

 

 

And MC will be even more stronger. You need to accept the asymetric progression. A single class unlock more powerfull abilities faster. A part of the problem is the usefulness of these abilities. Some times what you unlock isn't very interesting and early abilities stay the most interesting.

 

You can't just compare dps of martial classes. Because a MC will combine passives. So a fighter/rogue with sneak attack and deathblow will always do more dmg than a pure fighter. By combining passives you'll get bigger numbers.

 

But Veolfen, you should have tested a pure Paladin and compare. Because perhaps your problem isn't MC superior to single class, but more Paladin can do more dmg than a fighter? A fighter don't have the dmg bonus like a rogue or barbarian. Not all classes have to be equal in dps, not all martial abilities are about dps. People never take into account support, utility and team role.

 

Classes need more balances and some skills be buffed/reworked to be more interesting choices, specialy late abilities for some classes. Classes need to offer more interesting choices.

 

MC can be balanced by nerfing the base damages on the skills getting this new scaling as i stated in the previous posts. Making them slightly weaker early and still getting the power they actually have in midgame, and getting a slight increase lategame. (like same at 4, and higher once at 5, 6 and 7 powerlevel).

 

A singleclass would get more scaling when reaching 9 (or 10 if you take a powerlevel increase talent)

 

Also the combination gives a lot of damages, not like, a bit more, but a ****ton more, on a skill that you get at level 1 on paladin, compared to a high rank power skill on a fighter. I actually have a swashbucler that does higher damages with powerstrike with the combination of stuff, but it's on par with the pal, while still costing 4 discipline, so no spam possible there.

 

Also, you said it's not supposed to be "all about dps", but a skill that costs 4 shouldn't be outshined, even tho it's by a multiclass, by that much by a level 1 skill that costs 1. 

Paladins kind of outshine fighter on almost everything for exemple, so it's not only a problem of "different role" in the game. Like single class fighter is bad as dps and decent at best as a tank (only more engagement then others and that's it). Same for a single class ranger who's outdps by anything (but dps fighters).

 

Still, i'm not saying "single classes are bad" but more "single classes" are way too far behind mutl classes.

 

 

Your last point is right, but a lot of people are pointing it out, myself included : Level 7 to 9 skills are quite unattractive on a lot of classes, making single classes even more pointless. So the point isn't to make fighter a better dps than paladins, but something that has a reason to exist.

 

 

Edited by Veolfen
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Voelfen, have you compared with a single class paladin? What you describe point to a class/ability balance, not a MC problem. We all agree that lot of abilities need to be rebalanced. But this problem have nothing to do with power level. It's really about ability/ability tree design.

Edited by Takkik

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Also, you said it's not supposed to be "all about dps", but a skill that costs 4 shouldn't be outshined, even tho it's by a multiclass, by that much by a level 1 skill that costs 1. 

Paladins kind of outshine fighter on almost everything for exemple, so it's not only a problem of "different role" in the game. Like single class fighter is bad as dps and decent at best as a tank (only more engagement then others and that's it). Same for a single class ranger who's outdps by anything (but dps fighters).

 

Still, i'm not saying "single classes are bad" but more "single classes" are way too far behind mutl classes.

 

 

Your last point is right, but a lot of people are pointing it out, myself included : Level 7 to 9 skills are quite unattractive on a lot of classes, making single classes even more pointless. So the point isn't to make fighter a better dps than paladins, but something that has a reason to exist.

 

 

 

 

So I assume your paladin can interrupt enemy, doing aoe damage and has more engagement than a fighter? 

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I'm not a fighter player, but yeah, not all classes are about single target dps, and as far I understand fighter isn't one, so high level abilities aren't about single target dps. And you know? it's fine, because if you like base fighter and want a more dps one you can multiclass it. And I assume you're talking about power strike (4 disciplines), this ability do aoe dmg and affliction, so it's unfair to compare it with a single target dps ability.

 

Now i'm repeating myself, but I find some of the classes need a rework (more choice, redesign of abilities etc...) of abilities PL 6-9. The advantage of a single class character isn't only abilities 8-9, but he can take more abilities of pl 7 too and some classes have no real valid/interesting choices at this PL (A MC can only have 2/1 abilities at PL7 that why you need more than 2 interesting active/passives in each classe to force choices).

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Voelfen, have you compared with a single class paladin? What you describe point to a class/ability balance, not a MC problem. We all agree that lot of abilities need to be rebalanced. But this problem have nothing to do with power level. It's really about ability/ability tree design.

Paladin will crit less often than Fighter/Paladin. He will still be tankier and pull out more single target damages constantly overall. In any case, it's still weaker then the multiclass : his high level skills kind of suck, so that sums up the main point of the topic you tend to forget there.

You guys are stopping on this, which is an example and are forgetting the point of the topic : Buff single classes and make high level abilities relevant (Paladin included). I don't want them to be more powerful or as strong, but a bit more competitive and to have a reason to exist. Something more "specialised" you know ? And not just a straight downgrade ;)

 

 

So I assume your paladin can interrupt enemy, doing aoe damage and has more engagement than a fighter? 

 

 

A fighter/paladin can. Paladin cannot interrupt, but he has way more usefull tools, like heals, buff for the team, antidebuff, revive, is tankier while hitting harder. And you can achieve all those things too with the fighter/paladin because all the powerfull tools of those 2 comes in their early level skills, proving the problem with single classes i'm pointing out with this topic.

 

Also, interrupt isn't really good, most of the time it just adds a 2 seconds delay for the cast while you put yourself in a 4 seconds cooldown for this. Engagement is not as strong as people tend to think, you'll have better tanks with paladins that can buff people, heal and still keep agro without the need of engagement, or even a martial class mixed with wizard for buff and controls or chanter who will do a much better job at tanking with invocations. People who think engagement is very powerful and fighter is okay just for this are just caster/rogue mains that just want to throw in their tank and forget it so they can spam their abilities freely.

 

Either way, what you quoted was an exemple of an undherwhelming tool, made for "damages", that costs way too much for its effectiveness. And as I stated above, you just point out my exemple not looking at the fact it's about the weaknesses of single classes and how not worth it many high level abilities are, forgetting that it's here to illustrate the fact there's no reason to pick a single class , because of how not worth it their HL abilities are for most of them (and i said most, not all), and that giving more use to powerlevel could fix that easily without destroying the balance.

 

This topic is here to suggest "slight" buffs for single classes by tweaking powerlevel and their HL skills, not just fighter, but most of the single classes, even paladin.

 

I'm not a fighter player, but yeah, not all classes are about single target dps, and as far I understand fighter isn't one, so high level abilities aren't about single target dps. And you know? it's fine, because if you like base fighter and want a more dps one you can multiclass it. And I assume you're talking about power strike (4 disciplines), this ability do aoe dmg and affliction, so it's unfair to compare it with a single target dps ability.

 

Now i'm repeating myself, but I find some of the classes need a rework (more choice, redesign of abilities etc...) of abilities PL 6-9. The advantage of a single class character isn't only abilities 8-9, but he can take more abilities of pl 7 too and some classes have no real valid/interesting choices at this PL (A MC can only have 2/1 abilities at PL7 that why you need more than 2 interesting active/passives in each classe to force choices).

I know it's not all about single target dps, but it's a skill that exists for damages, and a 4 cost damage skill should be a burst skill (not a dps one since it drains a third of your ressources) and if you want to aoe, you'll better of using clear out than this. Powerstrike is a bad skill that you'll never use because it will just drain all of your stamina for slightly above average damages.

And speaking of different roles, at tanking, Paladins will outtank a fighter, and a lot of multiclass and some casters too, and at dps, all the dps classes outdps it, for single target AND multi target. And i don't want fighters to be "OP" i want  ALL CLASSES" to be "decent" or good at 1 specific role you specialised them for.

For EXEMPLE : fighter shouldn't have the highest dps, or aoe, but with his hit to crit conversion and a 4 discipline skill called POWERstrike, he should be able to pull of once or twice in a fight a really high crit roll with this you know ? And as a tank something more than being a meatshield that's because take the hit sucks ass.

 

You stopped on just one exemple, we're not here for the fighter only, but for many single classes who share the same problem, even Paladin which is considered one of the strongest classes, but will 99% be multiclassed with something. Powerlevel affect little skills, and a lot of HL abilities are underwhelming or just suck a lot. A tweak to power level can fix this, combined with some balancing for many skills so already strong skills don't get too strong, and bad skills could get reworked and or just buffed by the powerlevel.

 

So let's stop "correcting others" on exemple and get back on the main focus of the topic  :

-Single classes are pointless for many classes, they can hold their own, but are not rewarding at all and are outshined by every single char that is multiclassed. Mainly because of bad/underwhelming HL abilities and powerlevel ineffectiveness. Doesn't mean they have to be stronger, multiclass SHOULD be stronger, or more "multitask", but single classes should be more specialised and damn effective at it, and not just a straight downgrade to every multiclass.

-Powerlevel is pointless for many classes : An almost useless attribute that is the selling point of the single classes shouldn't be that bad, and should be tweaked, and the tweak could be the best way to give more power and attractiveness to some HL abilities.

Edited by Veolfen
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-Single classes are pointless for many classes, they can hold their own, but are not rewarding at all and are outshined by every single char that is multiclassed. Mainly because of bad/underwhelming HL abilities and powerlevel ineffectiveness. Doesn't mean they have to be stronger, multiclass SHOULD be stronger, or more "multitask", but single classes should be more specialised and damn effective at it, and not just a straight downgrade to every multiclass.

 

I think we all agree on that.

But one think you miss is that a fighter isn't specialised in DPS. A rogue or barbarian will always do better. You want more specialized single classes, but more specialized don't mean more DPS. HL single fighter have more abilities to keep people alive or manage enemies or buff himself. These skills need perhaps some balance pass to be more attractive, but perhaps the problem is that the fighter role don't suit you and you better just multiclass it.

 

 

I know it's not all about single target dps, but it's a skill that exists for damages, and a 4 cost damage skill should be a burst skill (not a dps one since it drains a third of your ressources) and if you want to aoe, you'll better of using clear out than this. Powerstrike is a bad skill that you'll never use because it will just drain all of your stamina for slightly above average damages.

Nope, I don't say the skill is balanced, but a 4 cost skill isn't about dmg. If you look at a full upgraded powerstrike, it do lot of dmg on a single target (+100%dmg, 4pen), debuff it, do dmg to people in AOE (you never counted it in your calculation) and debuf them. On top of that you gain 2 buff for 10 sec. Plenty of things for 4pts.

 

Now the problem of skill cost, I think, is that at the begining (beta) each upgrade unlocked a new skill with often a different cost. Now you pay for the upgrade even if you don't get it. It depend of skills. That lead to 2 big problems :

- Upgrade are not an option anymore, there is no reason to not take them (less choice) and until you unlock the upgrade the skill can feel overpriced.

- Abilities at PL 6-7 that have an upgrade at PL 8-9 become less interesting for multiclassing, reducing the choice when MC. That participate in the feeling that a MC can just unlock all the good stuff. Even for a single class that can make the mid range tier feel less interesting.

 

A basic power strike worth 3 discipline I think, and 4 for the upgraded one. It's the same with the rogue and whithering strike : 3 guile just for 1 debuff? I think a 2 cost and then 3 cost when upgraded feel better.

When a base ability feel a bit overpriced without the upgrade, they should separate the upgrade as a new ability.

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I get your point and i agree partially with you. But i'm gonna extend what I disagree with :

"Fighter isn't specialised in DPS" is still a poor excuse tho. It's what people want to hear about him because they won't bother. They just see him as a "multiclass passive stack" class or a send-in and forget tank. Still, 2 of his 3 classes are dps oriented, and a lot of his skills are focused on damages : The charge is good for an offensive or defensive char, and you have an interrupt, and his debuff are kind of weak, not the best debuff, not the best aoe and have a short duration.
In the end as a tank he's mainly just a meatshield thanks to his natural deflection + 45 secs health recovery and that's it. 
And as a damage dealer well as stated above, he does decent but his outclassed by everything (single class ranger included, who actually still has a decently good dps even tho everyone say he's ****).

Also i like all kind of fighter archetypes, tanks, dps, etc.. but the thing is, they are all disapointing in POE, not only the DPS one, but the tank too. (1 and 2, but in 1 it became a bit stronger with white march skills and durgan armor buff). And i tested many other classes (i did multiple games and created a huge amount of custom adventurers), and all single classes, even paladins felt they were missing something and most of the time ended up playing cards instead of being in my parties.

That just sums up how "single class" fighter is extremely lackluster. He's the exemple i know the most, but this problem is the same for a lot of single classes (even paladin).
But i don't want him to be the best dps, but he should be "decently good at least" and not "just decent at best ^^

 

 

 

 

 

I know it's not all about single target dps, but it's a skill that exists for damages, and a 4 cost damage skill should be a burst skill (not a dps one since it drains a third of your ressources) and if you want to aoe, you'll better of using clear out than this. Powerstrike is a bad skill that you'll never use because it will just drain all of your stamina for slightly above average damages.

Nope, I don't say the skill is balanced, but a 4 cost skill isn't about dmg. If you look at a full upgraded powerstrike, it do lot of dmg on a single target (+100%dmg, 4pen), debuff it, do dmg to people in AOE (you never counted it in your calculation) and debuf them. On top of that you gain 2 buff for 10 sec. Plenty of things for 4pts.

 

Now the problem of skill cost, I think, is that at the begining (beta) each upgrade unlocked a new skill with often a different cost. Now you pay for the upgrade even if you don't get it. It depend of skills. That lead to 2 big problems :

- Upgrade are not an option anymore, there is no reason to not take them (less choice) and until you unlock the upgrade the skill can feel overpriced.

- Abilities at PL 6-7 that have an upgrade at PL 8-9 become less interesting for multiclassing, reducing the choice when MC. That participate in the feeling that a MC can just unlock all the good stuff. Even for a single class that can make the mid range tier feel less interesting.

 

A basic power strike worth 3 discipline I think, and 4 for the upgraded one. It's the same with the rogue and whithering strike : 3 guile just for 1 debuff? I think a 2 cost and then 3 cost when upgraded feel better.

When a base ability feel a bit overpriced without the upgrade, they should separate the upgrade as a new ability.

 

Yeah i see your point for Powerstrike and i agree on the 3 to 4 point cost when it becomes Inspired Strike could make it more interesting. Even tho, i think Powerstrike AND Inspired Strike are really not worth the cost, and should be BOTH at 3, even tho you get small bonuses,  because the AOE damages aren't really great, and if the character is a single class fighter who has multiple mobs to hit you'll need to save those points, because after 3 powerstrike, you'll be out of points and a lot of mobs would still be standing, and you'll be much more effective and ressource efficient spamming clear out for this.
Also, putting Inspired Strike at 4 and Powerstrike at 3 would convince a lot of people to not pick the Inspired strike upgrade for a buff that only lasts 10 seconds. Making single class even less attractive than it actually is.

And the idea is the same for rogue as you say, some tweak to HL skills are needed. Because the point of the topic isn't to speak of the fighter, but of many single classes, but i find him being a shining example of how lackluster most of the single classes are, and how power level interact poorly with martial art abilities.

Edited by Veolfen

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Yeah i see your point for Powerstrike and i agree on the 3 to 4 point cost when it becomes Inspired Strike could make it more interesting. Even tho, i think Powerstrike AND Inspired Strike are really not worth the cost, and should be BOTH at 3, even tho you get small bonuses,  because the AOE damages aren't really great, and if the character is a single class fighter who has multiple mobs to hit you'll need to save those points, because after 3 powerstrike, you'll be out of points and a lot of mobs would still be standing, and you'll be much more effective and ressource efficient spamming clear out for this.

Also, putting Inspired Strike at 4 and Powerstrike at 3 would convince a lot of people to not pick the Inspired strike upgrade for a buff that only lasts 10 seconds. Making single class even less attractive than it actually is.

 

I don't play fighter and powerstrike feel weird, because it does a bit of everything without be focused. I would like to heard more feedback from people using it.

 

One thing you forget : it's a party based game, your fighter isn't alone fighting. And weapon abilities change depending of the weapon. I wonder how this ability work with an AOE weapon, +100%dmg on all target and multiple proc of the raw dmg? Compared to clear out.

 

+1 cost for a t3 (ok, the weakest one) and a t2 buff? not necessary of bad tradeoff.

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The thing is, single classes have for selling point the fact they get more "power level", but on a lot of them, except getting a slightly higher buff/debuff duration for their skills, it doesn't do much more.

 

The selling point is not "power level scaling" (which is what you're referring to) but access to PL8-9 and access to other PLs faster than multi-class (i.e. raw "power level" acquisition). Power level scaling is mostly intended just to help low-level abilities keep up with game progression, not to be super powerful (except in cases of empower). (And even if multiclass gets PL7 by the end, the speed with which they get it is very relevant; at level 9 a single class has PL5 abilities whereas a multiclass only has PL3. that's a pretty stark difference. a multiclass only gets PL7 by level 19, whereas a single-class has had that since level 13.)

 

But I mean, even with this correction this is a salient point because I feel like PL8-9 is kind of lacking for martial classes. I mean, druid/priest/wizard I would argue demonstrate a great trade-off between single-class and multiclass, because some of the PL8 and PL9 spells are just really good. By contrast, I don't see as many "must have" PL8/9 abilities for some of the martial classes, which makes multiclassing less of a trade-off. Similarly, there is a pretty stark power increase with each new PL-worth of spells, whereas it tends to be less dramatic for martial classes.

 

The other thing is that casters have a built-in single-class buff because their higher level PL abilities don't "steal" space from lower-level PL abilities. A PL8-9 spell/invocation/power has its own dedicated per-encounter cast slot compared to a PL1 ability, whereas a PL8-9 martial ability--even if it were really good--has to compete for class resources with PL1/2 abilities, and frankly the way some of them are costed I would rather have 3x or 4x uses of a PL1-3 ability than one use of a pretty-ok PL8-9 ability (e.g. fighter's Mule Kick or Penetrating Strike vs some of their higher-level stuff).

Edited by thelee
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But I mean, even with this correction this is a salient point because I feel like PL8-9 is kind of lacking for martial classes. I mean, druid/priest/wizard I would argue demonstrate a great trade-off between single-class and multiclass, because some of the PL8 and PL9 spells are just really good. By contrast, I don't see as many "must have" PL8/9 abilities for some of the martial classes, which makes multiclassing less of a trade-off. Similarly, there is a pretty stark power increase with each new PL-worth of spells, whereas it tends to be less dramatic for martial classes.

 

The other thing is that casters have a built-in single-class buff because their higher level PL abilities don't "steal" space from lower-level PL abilities. A PL8-9 spell/invocation/power has its own dedicated per-encounter cast slot compared to a PL1 ability, whereas a PL8-9 martial ability--even if it were really good--has to compete for class resources with PL1/2 abilities, and frankly the way some of them are costed I would rather have 3x or 4x uses of a PL1-3 ability than one use of a pretty-ok PL8-9 ability (e.g. fighter's Mule Kick or Penetrating Strike vs some of their higher-level stuff).

 

 

Yup, well said all around.

 

On my Swashbuckler my most-used and most useful abilities were pretty much PL1-2, on casters you end up using a much wider range of abilities.

 

They've improved on this a bit but I think the sheer range of ability costs is probably excessive. This is probably just another of those silly psychological things but a 4-resource ability feels risky and underwhelming most of the time. 1 and 2 resource abilities feel great, 3 is pretty situational, but I look at a 4-cost ability and have a really hard time justifying ever using it.

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