Josh Sawyer on IGN Unfiltered

[Infinitron]

Full episode tomorrow.

 

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/25/pillars-of-eternity-director-gives-details-on-canceled-aliens-rpg-a-ign-unfiltered

 

PILLARS OF ETERNITY DIRECTOR GIVES DETAILS ON CANCELED ALIENS RPG – IGN UNFILTERED

“I think a lot of people couldn’t even comprehend it, which seems crazy to me,” says project director Josh Sawyer.

 

In early 2009, Sega announced that it was pulling the plug on a role-playing game based on Ridley Scott’s Aliens franchise. The game was being helmed by Fallout: New Vegas and Pillars of Eternity developer Obsidian Entertainment, which laid off more than 20 employees shortly after the cancellation. In an exclusive interview for IGN Unfiltered, Obsidian mainstay Josh Sawyer (director on Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire and Fallout: New Vegas) has shared new details regarding the game and the reasons for its demise.

 

Pre-alpha footage of the game leaked back in early 2013, featuring a four-man squad searching through a dilapidated facility before being swarmed by the titular aliens. There’s also a bit of footage of the character creation menu. A 2010 report by Joystiq quotes Obsidian studio head Feargus Urquhart as saying “Oh, if you had come in and played any of the last builds we were working on, you would have said it was a finished game.”

 

“It did not play like a finished game,” says Sawyer, who came on as a lead designer for the game before eventually moving to project director. “There were a lot of problems with area development. We had some animation problems we were working through. There was a lot of cool stuff in it, but ultimately we weren’t building our areas at a fast enough pace and there were just some lingering problems.”

 

According to Sawyer, the footage that leaked back in 2013 was from a build of the game that was “one or two” milestones prior to the build Obsidian had when the game was canceled, something that Sawyer says saddened him.

 

“It was too little, too late honestly,” Sawyer says. “Even though I was really disappointed it got canceled, I get why it was canceled. I wasn’t like, ‘Whoa, where did this come from?’”

 

Part of the struggle in getting an Aliens role-playing game off the ground also included marketing the idea to players or executives who might not have thought the franchise would lend itself well to a more open-ended experience of an RPG rather than another genre.

 

“When it was announced that we were working on an Aliens role-playing game, I think a lot of people couldn’t even comprehend it, which seems crazy to me,” Sawyer says. “I can’t remember when we started working on it relative to Mass Effect, but sci-fi games as RPGs were not necessarily a super big thing outside of Mass Effect.”

 

For Sawyer, part of the Aliens franchise’s draw was its focus on the humans struggling to survive an encounter with the deadly xenomorph creatures, such as the original Nostromo crew of Alien or the ragtag space marines of the Aliens film.

 

“It’s about more than just Ripley. It’s about Ripley in the midst of a group of people and her emerging as this de facto leader, this person who has to help pull them through,” Sawyer says. “It’s about how people either fall apart or they rise up. Those are beautiful character arcs. For me, in a role-playing game, those are the great key relationships you can build. That’s what I wanted to emphasize in the Aliens game we were making.”

 

According to Sawyer, Obsidian’s hierarchy didn’t include project directors at the time, instead vying for discipline leads and one executive producer. Sawyer moved into a director role at the tail end of the project after it was clear that the team needed a person in charge of enforcing more difficult decisions. This would hopefully halt the indecision between sections of the team plaguing development.

 

“Obviously no one likes being overruled, but if our goal is to have a vision and direction to go in, [directors are] something we need,” Sawyer says.

 

For more details on the canceled Alien role-playing game, as well as a look behind the development of Fallout: New Vegas and future plans for Pillars of Eternity, make sure to check out the full episode of IGN Unfiltered tomorrow.

Edited June 25, 2018 by Infinitron

[TT1]

Josh is still part of Obsidian?

[Ogi79]

Josh is still part of Obsidian?

What makes you think that he is not??    

[Wormerine]

 

Josh is still part of Obsidian?

 

What makes you think that he is not??

His honesty? :-D

[Enoch]

Full interview is up.

 

http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06/26/what-we-can-learn-from-rpg-design-guru-josh-sawyer-a-ign-unfiltered-32

[eimatshya]

Hmm... Josh is done with party-based, medieval fantasy for the short term. Hopefully that means his next project will be something else?

[Labadal]

My bet is that he will leave the company and try something else. It's my gut feeling.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I think he'll take a long hiatus, stay at Obsidian, and then try his hand at some spectacular new game.

[kanisatha]

I agree. I believe somewhere in that interview (or some other one) he specifically says he wants to take a year or so to focus on his job as design director for Obsidian while not working on any specific game. That doesn't sound like someone who wants to bail on the company.

[the_dog_days]

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

[E.RedMark]

well..I be happy if they make a sequel of ALIEN ISOLATION .

[GhostofAnakin]

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

 

It's been six years already since PoE1 was first concocted?

[the_dog_days]

 

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

 

It's been six years already since PoE1 was first concocted?

 

 

Kickstarted for POE1 went up on September 14, 2012.

[GhostofAnakin]

Damn ... time flies.  Seems like just yesterday I made my pledge.

[DiabolicallyRandom]

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

Not just PoE either, Tyranny as well, which was a similar styled game, albeit with a different take. So 6 years, 3 games, all "party based fantasy RPG.".

 

I would gather JS wants to work on something very different from that. Perhaps he is aching to work on something like First Person Fallout, Action-RPG, something singular character focused? Who knows but him. I would want a break too.

Edited July 23, 2018 by DiabolicallyRandom

[hermamora]

 

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

Not just PoE either, Tyranny as well, which was a similar styled game, albeit with a different take. So 6 years, 3 games, all "party based fantasy RPG.".

 

I would gather JS wants to work on something very different from that. Perhaps he is aching to work on something like First Person Fallout, Action-RPG, something singular character focused? Who knows but him. I would want a break too.

 

Marcel Proust wrote his tasteless (sorry, I hate it wholeheartedly) In Search of Lost Time from 1913 till 1927. So it's not unusual for a writer to spend years on particular project. 

[algroth]

 

 

Anyone who's been working on Pillars for six years straight has earned a sabbatical.

Not just PoE either, Tyranny as well, which was a similar styled game, albeit with a different take. So 6 years, 3 games, all "party based fantasy RPG.".

 

I would gather JS wants to work on something very different from that. Perhaps he is aching to work on something like First Person Fallout, Action-RPG, something singular character focused? Who knows but him. I would want a break too.

 

Marcel Proust wrote his tasteless (sorry, I hate it wholeheartedly) In Search of Lost Time from 1913 till 1927. So it's not unusual for a writer to spend years on particular project. 

 

Marcel Proust is a bit of a statistical outlier considering the volume, intention and achievements of that particular work, but you are not wrong. Most filmmakers I've spoken to (as well as my personal experience thus far, I'll add) have stated that films tend to be a five-year endeavour from their conception and first draft to the actual end of production because of all the time spent working on the script, pitching the film to potential producers and investors, looking at credits and subsidies and so on, and of course the usual time it takes for a film from pre-production to its completion. If it's a franchise or, in TV's case, a series, you can imagine that work is even multiplied through the several films or seasons the same can take. Still it is well within reason to want a brief, however brief, break after any such endeavour.

Edited July 29, 2018 by algroth

[Amentep]

Proust also didn't have to deal with the fans pestering him about when the next part would come out like poor George R. R. Martin does.

[Gromnir]

Proust also didn't have to deal with the fans pestering him about when the next part would come out like poor George R. R. Martin does.

if is true fans did not pester, then we assume is in part 'cause proust were a machine, cranking out volumes every couple o' years.  there were one long gap 'tween volume 1 and volume 2 publishing, but weren't proust fault as book were ready for release, but pesky world conflict interrupted schedule.  george r.r. martin is, converse, doing his darndest to achieve harper lee status insofar as length 'tween volumes. 

 

james joyce efforts to get dubliners published as he wrote it has taken on almost mythic quality because is the exception rather than rule.  is kinda amazing how many great works by famous authors were actual serialized-- chapters were often released in periodicals with strict deadlines compelling the genius author to write faster if he wanted to be eating well next month. am suspecting dickens would experience a fit o' apoplexy if were explained to him how martin has been able to spread his efforts over many years and 'cross multiple media.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Amentep]

If social media existed at the time, Proust's fans would probably complain through social media that he died before he completed his revision of the last three volumes of IN SEARCH OF LOST TIME and instead his brother had to complete them...

 

Then again, you're right that serialized authors would probably be bemused by the situation with Martin since they had to maintain steady (and in the case of the pulp authors, prodigious) amount of output to maintain their livelihoods. 

[injurai]

Martin had a lot of output early on though right? I thought he wrote a ton for television and had a steady output of stuff early on. Is any bemused over a near retiree slacking when he has royalties on one of the biggest long form premium television series?

[Tagaziel]

I spent an hour taking notes from the interview. It's kind of raw, but it's a bit too much to process. Love it, very informative.

 

Lawrence History major/Theater minor

 

Originally went to Lawrence Conservatory, was a bad student; thought he was to be a prof. actor and singer.

 

He loves history, esp. magic/religion, early modern/Renaissance history.

 

No solid career plan, early plans were fuzzy, focused on tabletop in early days; always liked games.

 

His entry: Self-taught HTML and Flash animation; joined Black Isle as a web designer, writing a four-page cover letter that mostly rambled about RPGs/their direction (for a secret project - PS:T).

 

(JES, don't be so self-deprecating, dilettante/Renaissance man?)

 

JES is colorblind, artwork is a challenge as a result.

 

Parents were always extremely supportive of him; father is a freelance bronze sculptor, very proud of him whatever he did - just wanted him to be happy

 

JES is aware that luck was critical to his career and the support of other people.

 

His progression to game developer was the result of constant harrasment of the devs, making sure that the website was accurately representing the game - from the graphics to the lore. He forged close ties with MCA, Colin McComb etc. at that time.

 

Then he kept badgering Feargus about doing design work. Feargus kept pushing him off, until a position opened for Icewind Dale for a junior designer.

 

Icewind Dale 2 came in the tail end of Interplay and JES accepted the responsibility for the project, moving to a higher position thanks to his ID experience.

 

Differences between tabletop and computer games: Pacing, improvisation, esp. in combat - in game, one minute translates to thirty in pnp. Plus, the fact you're controlling every character simultaneously changes the perception.

 

JES tries to include PNP elements like dialogue options, faction options, double-crossing, killing everyone and finishing the game still, to reflect that improvisational aspect, the spirit of tabletop.

 

Similarities: Fulfilling a diverse set of fantasies for players and allow a degree of freedom in story and decisions, even with codified characters like Geralt, Adam Jensen etc.

 

Van Buren: Just the lead systems designer at first, MCA was lead designer, had a massive bible full of ideas and characters (he writes down), they first thinned it to find the most appealing and interesting elements. Stressful time too, as Interplay was bleeding people in every single way and most veteran designers were looking to jump ship.

 

Designers knew they will likely fail, but passionate developers stayed on to try and make Fallout 3. After MCA and many others left, JES stayed behind to try and finish it with other people.

 

It was a game with lots of promise, but Interplay could never finish it most likely.

 

JES isn't really bothered by it after making FNV.

 

Fans never left isometric games - publishers did, making it impossible to get funding.

 

JES is comfortable making near-milion sellers; publishers mostly want cash cows that sell millions. FNV sold like 12 millions. In essence, high floor, low ceiling is fine.

 

Beth's Fallout 3: 160 hours played, wanted to exhaust everything in the game. BGS mastered the art of exploration gaming, whether it's open world or dungeons. Good at encouraging players to explore.

 

MCA observation: At every point on the map you see at least three more landmarks to guide exploration. Experience in TES definitely helped master this.

 

FNV: Obsidian tried to embrace these principles in their game.

 

JES knew that they were going to do FNV, which helped accumulate 160 hours of experience.

 

Black Isle: JES left two weeks before its death, as he saw no way to move forward as part of BIS.

 

It's a good thing Van Buren didn't ship, as it would have happened under durress and it wouldn't be a healthy project.

 

After: Worked briefly at Gauntlet at Midway San Diego (1.5 years), different experience - didn't feel as a core part of the studio. Money problems at Midway caused pressure and crunch, so JES left, joined Obsidian to work on NWN2.

 

Coming to OEI felt like being part-FNG, since they already did KOTOR2 and he was coming in partway through the project as a senior designer. He wasn't syncing well for a while, moved to a different project with a starter team, then returned as NWN2 lead.

 

NWN2 was in a difficult place, and JES focused on finishing it and making it complete before shipping (so that KOTOR2 isn't part of a pattern).

 

Presidential codenames: Black Isle, Obsidian uses state names in order of their incorporation into the Union. Codenames are meant to maintain OpSec and avoid both leaks and giving people expectations as to the name (which is why Deadfire is Louisiana; other names mentioned are Ohio or Indiana).

 

Goals for FNV: Move perks away from skill bonuses towards unique gameplay benefits. Make choices more impactful. Worked with John Gonzalez to flesh out the conflict over Hoover Dam. Gonzalez developed much of the story, including fleshing out the characters, factions, Mr House; the story is designed to hook the player into the conflict and lead them to meeting all the groups vying for control over the Mojave.

 

Dealing with Benny puts the player in the center of the conflict. Exposure to factions was meant to challenge and alter their perception; NCR went from AMERICA **** YEAH to Yeah, this is pretty corrupt and petty out here - Legion was intended to go from BABY-EATING MONSTERS to a more comprehensible evil, not tolerable, but understandable.

 

The decisions were meant to make players question their morals and values while deciding who is best for the Mojave (and who to screw over).

 

How do you implement choices that matter: Planning is everything. Ground rules that are inviolable are vital, including the Flamethrower Principle: The player has to be able to kill any character (except children) and still complete the game.

 

FNV focused on small-scale reactivity in both short and long term, rather than making major diverging story.

 

Example: The White Wash. Siphoning water from the sharecropper farms for Westside (inspired by Chinatown) can cause the farms to fail and the farmers eventually move back to California after the timer expires.

 

Little Buster: After completing the bounties, he moves on to Vegas, but is found dead in the Freeside.

 

Small payoffs for decisions make the world feel alive without the need for branching paths.

 

Metacritic bonus: JES doesn't really remember anything about in development, it blew up after release.

 

JESawyer.esp: Not an official patch because design is about needs and constraints; audience for FNV was particularly the audience for FO3, which was relatively forgiving and easy-going. It's fine and valid, which is why JES emulated it for FNV; tweaking difficulty and making it more challenging. JSawyer was a personal mod in keeping with his preferences and sensibilities, experimenting with feedback from highly motivated face.

 

Mod rules: Not changing stuff based on player requests; requires every DLC; it wasn't a Director's Cut, but his personal thing.

 

He named it JSawyer based on Obsidian's convention for personal work.

 

JES would like to make another Fallout game - it would be a lot of fun.

 

No comment on Bethesda's plans for the West.

 

Aliens RPG: Hurts like every other project that got cancelled. In general, cancellations hurt less when it's six months in than when it's years into development.

 

JES met unfortunate developers who worked for six years on three games - all of which were cancelled.

 

Shipping a game is different from pure development, and lacking that experience is a problem.

 

It was going to be a different game. People couldn't comprehend it at first, until JES explained it in simple terms.

 

Perhaps sci-fi RPGs weren't a big thing outside Mass Effect? Especially with a franchise such as Alien(s). It's a great material for RPG, offering opportunities to explore how people fall or rise up in the face of the incomprehensible. Many amazing story arcs could be had with this material.

 

This is what OEI and JES wanted to emphasize.

 

Travis Stout (?) wrote the pitch, called it Aliens: Almire (?), JES came in as the lead designer (no directors at the time, the position came in at the end of the project).

 

Project directors were a reform to make projects more governable and break ties between the different branches of development.

 

For Aliens RPG, there were lots of ideas and stuff, but it exposed the problems with the structure of OEI at the time; project directors were needed to keep a singular vision.

 

The game had problems on both sides, including area, animation, and other issues on the side of development. Lots of cool stuff too, but the development lagged and the game was eventually cancelled.

 

JES is bummed out by the fact that the footage on YouTube is not the footage from the last build (it's one or two milestones behind), and they made real strides forward.

 

Pillars of Eternity: JES doesn't like being credited with the idea to Kickstart the game. The first person to do so was Nathaniel Chapman (now at Blizzard, working on WoW). Loose idea, inspired a lot of people at the studio, but it didn't gain traction until Double Fine Studios had their big break.

 

Kickstarter was a Hail Mary: After Microsoft's project was cancelled and OEI's experience with publishers, Obsidian was with little money, had to lay off most people, and had a very poor negotiating position - publishers have money and fund you as an investment. If you don't have leverage, you're basically screwed: They can wait and starve you out until you acquiesce.

 

JES invokes Ensemble: He interviewed there and he learned that during Age of Empires' development, their hold on the license was an advantage, allowing them to make publishers bid for them, rather than having to submit pitches and hope of the best.

 

OEI's situation was basically publishers having the studio over a barrel. Owners weren't enthusiastic, but they were eventually convinced. Adam Brennecke was important in pushing forward with ideas etc.

 

The Pillars pitch was not attractive enough (mid-2000s through 2012), as they want to invest tens of millions and get hundreds of millions in revenue.

 

On Kickstarter, he expected a 50/50 chance. Then they got 1.1 mil in 27 hours.

 

Notably, does not believe fans' love can be taken for granted. You must continously work to earn it.

 

[also good relationship advice]

 

Biggest changes at the studio: Trades one set of design constraints for another. Publishers usually want to market the game for a wide audience; when making a game for a narrower, more hardcore slice of the playerbase, the contraints are different and might even be narrower.

 

The feedback process with players is healthier, even if they say it's crap, crap, then give a grudging OK. Better than development in secret, with feedback from publishers.

 

JES prefers the restrictive constraints of designing for players, rather than for publishers.

 

OEI had continuous funding, but wound up exceeding their budget. It was manageable, as Obsidian has multiple sources of revenue - Feargus made sure the whole system worked and they could work on the game.

 

When the game was in a working, shippable state, but needed additional polish, the release date was pushed despite the additional expenses.

 

JES had no sales expectations, but the critical response exceeded what he thought the reception would be. JES is happy that the game sold and still sells well.

 

Pillars was set up from the beginning as a large IP, Obisidian's own to develop and grow, one that can accommodate multiple projects, as intellectual property adds the most value to the company. Hardware can be swapped out, employees can leave, but the IP stays with the company.

 

IPs can also accomodate a great many things: Isometric game, crazy TES-like FPS (it's a joke), an even crazier tabletop game JES is making.

 

JES would love for other developers to work on the game, license it, make other games in the setting - and he really, really wants to make that tactical combat game.

 

JES is kind of burned out after six years on Pillars, so wants to take a step back and focus on his role as design director at OEI. Mentor other designers, for example, do smaller games, and so on and so forth.

[robbie22]

this is gonna be epic !!