petition to make 2 handed weapons relevant

[the streaker]

You can balance the general weakness of 2 handers with better unique ones, that's true. However I don't think that's the right way. Each weapon type should be equally useful in its "vanilla" state.

 

As I already suggested several times, giving all 2 handers +1 PEN would solve the problem without making those too good. It's also not unreasonable because weapons that get wielded with more kinetic energy should be able to overcome armor more easily.

I don't actually think it's a bad idea to balance based on uniques, because it doesn't take long for your entire party to be outfitted in uniques. Who uses vanilla weapons past the early stages of the game other than maybe guns for that first shot of the fight?

 

And even if I did, +1 pen wouldn't change anything. It's quite rare for 1 pen to be the difference between underpenetration or not, and if it were, I'd get my 1 pen through buffs/debuffs or a different weapon. If I'm in the overpenetration range, I'm probably killing trash mobs anyways so who cares? You'd have to make the pen bonus +3 or so for it to start mattering, which might not be a bad idea.

[dunehunter]

Problem is I’m limited to almost 1/2 weapons due to the bad performance of 2h weapons, questions is do they care? If not we will need a overall mod for it

Edited June 24, 2018 by dunehunter

[Archaven]

 

You can balance the general weakness of 2 handers with better unique ones, that's true. However I don't think that's the right way. Each weapon type should be equally useful in its "vanilla" state.

 

As I already suggested several times, giving all 2 handers +1 PEN would solve the problem without making those too good. It's also not unreasonable because weapons that get wielded with more kinetic energy should be able to overcome armor more easily.

I don't actually think it's a bad idea to balance based on uniques, because it doesn't take long for your entire party to be outfitted in uniques. Who uses vanilla weapons past the early stages of the game other than maybe guns for that first shot of the fight?

 

And even if I did, +1 pen wouldn't change anything. It's quite rare for 1 pen to be the difference between underpenetration or not, and if it were, I'd get my 1 pen through buffs/debuffs or a different weapon. If I'm in the overpenetration range, I'm probably killing trash mobs anyways so who cares? You'd have to make the pen bonus +3 or so for it to start mattering, which might not be a bad idea.

 

 

i played in potd with scaling options. i find many mobs have high armor that i often find myself -1/-2 under penetration. That's huge -25%/-50% damage. So +1 does help alot if you asked me.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Give 2-handed +2 Pen/fast 1-handed -1 Pen, make dual damage weapons have normal pen values instead of a penalty, and don't have 2-handed weapons cost double to enchant. Give the 2-handed style ability +1 pen as well. For Full Attacks, give 2-Handers max or bonus damage(+25%) and single-weapon an accuracy bonus(+10/15) to make them competitive with dual-wield.

[the streaker]

 

 

You can balance the general weakness of 2 handers with better unique ones, that's true. However I don't think that's the right way. Each weapon type should be equally useful in its "vanilla" state.

 

As I already suggested several times, giving all 2 handers +1 PEN would solve the problem without making those too good. It's also not unreasonable because weapons that get wielded with more kinetic energy should be able to overcome armor more easily.

I don't actually think it's a bad idea to balance based on uniques, because it doesn't take long for your entire party to be outfitted in uniques. Who uses vanilla weapons past the early stages of the game other than maybe guns for that first shot of the fight?

 

And even if I did, +1 pen wouldn't change anything. It's quite rare for 1 pen to be the difference between underpenetration or not, and if it were, I'd get my 1 pen through buffs/debuffs or a different weapon. If I'm in the overpenetration range, I'm probably killing trash mobs anyways so who cares? You'd have to make the pen bonus +3 or so for it to start mattering, which might not be a bad idea.

 

 

i played in potd with scaling options. i find many mobs have high armor that i often find myself -1/-2 under penetration. That's huge -25%/-50% damage. So +1 does help alot if you asked me.

 

Only for estocs versus extremely high armor targets, otherwhise you'd be far better off switching to higher pen unique single handed weapons  or guns

[Veolfen]

Give 2-handed +2 Pen/fast 1-handed -1 Pen, make dual damage weapons have normal pen values instead of a penalty, and don't have 2-handed weapons cost double to enchant. Give the 2-handed style ability +1 pen as well. For Full Attacks, give 2-Handers max or bonus damage(+25%) and single-weapon an accuracy bonus(+10/15) to make them competitive with dual-wield.

That would be way too huge there.

-1 pen might be too much for 1 handed weapons considering the armor buff the ennemies get in POTD.

+3 pen is too much for 2 hander, meaning they will overpen anything the game throws at you. +2 maximum i'll say.

 

For the full attacks i agree, a +25% damages or the max damages and an accuracy bonus for 1 handed (or maybe a crit damage bonus) could be a good idea yeah.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Veolfen

[Boeroer]

I like the "auto max dmg roll" idea for Full Attacks with two handers a lot. It's something new yet easy to implement and understand and it's more powerful than a measly +25% additive dmg boost - since it would be a multiplicative dmg improvement. Maybe it's even too powerful, especially with Full Attacks that combine dmg bonuses and lashes (like FoD with an Assassin/Paladin for example). But it is the most interesting idea for me I've read about so far.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Boeroer

[Shadenuat]

i played in potd with scaling options. i find many mobs have high armor that i often find myself -1/-2 under penetration. That's huge -25%/-50% damage. So +1 does help alot if you asked me.

On POTD scaling you can meet monsters with 17-18 armor, extra pen would not do anything there. You'll have to switch to something else anyway, and when you do you usually will have option to pen.

 

So it doesn't really matter if 2 handers would have extra pen really.

 

Until dual wielding fists or sabers does only about 25% less damage per weapon and buffed can hit three times as fast while interrupting dude with 2-hander to boot, 2-handers will suck. Compared to now 2-handers need to do like double damage. Cleric's summoned sword with acid lash was reasonable before patch, and dual wielders would still do more damage in my party than cleric with one.

Edited June 24, 2018 by Shadenuat

[dunehunter]

I like the "auto max dmg roll" idea for Full Attacks with two handers a lot. It's something new yet easy to implement and understand and it's more powerful than a measly +25% additive dmg boost - since it would be a multiplicative dmg improvement. Maybe it's even too powerful, especially with Full Attacks that combine dmg bonuses and lashes (like FoD with an Assassin/Paladin for example). But it is the most interesting idea for me I've read about so far.

 

I don't think it will be too powerful, 2h sword has an average base damage of 21, so maximize base damage will make it from 21->24, it's +3 base damage. Comparing with DW with full attack, average base damage of a sword is 16, with full attack it is 16x2 = 32.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Give 2-handed +2 Pen/fast 1-handed -1 Pen, make dual damage weapons have normal pen values instead of a penalty, and don't have 2-handed weapons cost double to enchant. Give the 2-handed style ability +1 pen as well. For Full Attacks, give 2-Handers max or bonus damage(+25%) and single-weapon an accuracy bonus(+10/15) to make them competitive with dual-wield.

 

That would be way too huge there.

-1 pen might be too much for 1 handed weapons considering the armor buff the ennemies get in POTD.

+3 pen is too much for 2 hander, meaning they will overpen anything the game throws at you. +2 maximum i'll say.

Not really, the -1 Pen nerf is only for fast 1-handed weapons while the slow 1-handed should stay the same. +2/+3 (with talent) Pen for 2-handed wouldn't allow consistent overpen against a lot of content on normal/veteran and signifigantly less on PotD.

 

I like the "auto max dmg roll" idea for Full Attacks with two handers a lot. It's something new yet easy to implement and understand and it's more powerful than a measly +25% additive dmg boost - since it would be a multiplicative dmg improvement. Maybe it's even too powerful, especially with Full Attacks that combine dmg bonuses and lashes (like FoD with an Assassin/Paladin for example). But it is the most interesting idea for me I've read about so far.

I meant a multiplicative +25%, similar to how Might worked in beta. Though if +3 to average damage might be too much then a multiplicative 1.25 would certainly be overkill.

[Takkik]

Why not give to 2handed weapons extra effects? A greatsword do a small AOE attack/dmg (like whister of EP), An estoc have extra pen, a hammer have a chance to stun/daze on hit etc... Or just allow all 2handed weapon to do AOE dmg.

 

I always though primary attack was the base effect and full attack a buff to mitigate smaller dmg from 1 handed weapons.

 

1 thing the game miss, it's off hand items that aren't weapons or shields and that allow you to use one handed weapon style and style have some magical effects (abilities, buff...) in your offhand slot. Same for unharmed, why no unharmed weapons, that use your unharmed dmg but allow you to have magical items in your weapon slots?

[Boeroer]

There is an "unarmed" small shield that counts as an offhand weapob, works with two weapon style AND weapon & shield style and also profits from Transcendent Suffering's bonus.

 

I think that +3 base damage is not really too powerful. I didn't memorize the actual base dmg numbers yet so I wasn't sure.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Why not give to 2handed weapons extra effects? A greatsword do a small AOE attack/dmg (like whister of EP), An estoc have extra pen, a hammer have a chance to stun/daze on hit etc... Or just allow all 2handed weapon to do AOE dmg

All weapons technically have special effects, but this sounds like it would be more complicated than having 2-handed weapons deal less dps but be more effective against high AR than dual wield.

 

I think that +3 base damage is not really too powerful. I didn't memorize the actual base dmg numbers yet so I wasn't sure.

It can be if you've got lashes and additive boosts. Maybe 2-handed should get an accuracy bonus instead, in any case they need some sort of tune up to be competitive for full attacks.

[arkane83]

Maybe 2 handed should get more from might. Right now we get 3% bonus damage from might no matter the type of weapon or spell. I would do something like this:

 

1h : 3.0% per 1 might

1h and shield: 3.0% per 1 might

Dual wield. : 3.0% main hand 2.0% offhand

Two handed. : 5.0% per 1 might

 

Two handed should be really powerful per hit. I should want to stack might to wield a big two handed morningstar. Right now martial classes mostly want perception and dexterity thanks to weak additive might bonuses.

 

Seems weird that we see melee builds that dump might because the bonus weapon damage and skill damage bonuses dwarf might bonuses.

 

It almost seems like the damage numbers on weapons were originally based on being multiplicative with might. The slightly larger base damage on 2h weapons makes sense in a multiplicative system since the damage gap between big and small weapons would get wider as you use a multiplicative might...

[dunehunter]

One thing that is very weird is, if you dual wielding Pistol, you can do full attack even if you only reload once. So Imo Full Attack ability should use mainhand+offhand as it's recovery time.

[Camonge]

+3 penetration on full attacks would be great. Two handed full attacks should not underpen on most circumstances.

 

And I do not think rogue full attacks are OK atm. Consistently dealing 100+ damage from lvl 7 onwards by spamming a lvl1 power is not ok.

[dunehunter]

Another thought is make 2h+full attack into cone AOE attack.

[Odd Hermit]

I think dual wielding should be reconsidered and the off hand weapon should matter more. A penalty to accuracy and deflection for wielding 2x large/heavy weapons. Lighter weapons would reduce that but of course do less damage with full attacks. Currently you can do something like double sabre or mace and be hardly impacted by what seems like it should be a rather complicated and unwieldy fighting style.

Edited June 26, 2018 by Odd Hermit

[heldred]

The more I play, I keep wondering why I would ever use a two-handed weapon, other than using LDV for lightning-builds.

 

Choosing a weapon style should be a harder decision for a min-maxer.   Even a casual player will be underwhelmed with two-handed weapons.  The slow recovery time combined with the lackluster damage makes for a confusing experience...

 

 

 

 

[TT1]

I will start to mod some 2H weapons to TT1 Unique Items. Do you have any requests?

[gGeorg]

2h weapon -> threatening property

minimum attack/accuracy roll is 20. e.g. When roll is lower than 20 then is equal  to 20. So 2h weapon you get attack rolls in range of 20-100 instead of 1-100

 

and

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add Bonus +1 PEN agree, except staff. Staff should be rather faster. I mean Shorter recovery. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by gGeorg

[gGeorg]

I think dual wielding should be reconsidered and the off hand weapon should matter more. A penalty to accuracy and deflection for wielding 2x large/heavy weapons. Lighter weapons would reduce that but of course do less damage with full attacks. Currently you can do something like double sabre or mace and be hardly impacted by what seems like it should be a rather complicated and unwieldy fighting style.

Some one handed weapons types shout get flag, "main hand only", like spear, mace, warhammer, scepter, ....

[DozingDragon]

I will start to mod some 2H weapons to TT1 Unique Items. Do you have any requests?

Are you only interested in adding new items, or are you willing to consider modifying some of the existing weapons? If so, would you add a modal to Whispers of the Endless Paths to turn off the AoE cone in exchange for a higher base damage? A modal like that would make Whispers of the Endless Paths useful against individual targets.

[no1fanboy]

they just released the pacth beta THS now has an additional +1 pen

[dunehunter]

The more we discussed here, the more I realize that the problem is not 2h weapons are underwhelming, but Full Attack abilities heavily favors dual wielding. You get higher burst damage and less recovery time, and you can turn on mainhand modal without recovery penalty if you have another light weapon in offhand, like axe/dagger, sabre/dagger.