Jump to content

Recommended Posts

On this weeks episode of "spot the authoritarian":

hats: infuriating mechanisms of imposing liberalism on individuals who pretend not to be snowflakes while they try to control everyone else's choices?

or just hats.

YOU DECIDE!

(hint:  they're just hats)

;)


 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I don't care how other people play their games, I care how the game are designed (to suit, so to speak), and that can be influenced by how other people play their games.

 

And it is influenced! Which is why we can hide hats ;)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It behooves the seller to not care—so long as they get the subscription fee every month.

 

 

Aside: Would you consider that MMO to have a relatively toxic environment / player attitude, or the opposite?

No more so than any other MMO.  People forget how reality works, the more people you cram into a small space the more likely conflict becomes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Case in point:

 

 

Yeah, this. I'm happy about the feature to be able to hide one's hat, and will probably use it. I tend to do so sometimes.

 

But i still understand completely Gizmo's point. I noticed the same kind of things regarding complete different features of Pillars. There are many like this (Infinite Stash is the first coming to mind since everything Gizmo said could apply to it as well). These are what i call the "quality of life improvements", which are really just "let's cater to people's laziness". I probably would not be able to explain it myself, especially since i'm not fluent with english. But i would say this. We did not went from Fallout 1 to Fallout 4 without a slow evolution regarding what is considered as a "good" feature. To me, all the "good" features of Fallout 4 are pretty nasty. Things are evolving on a slippery slope in game design. I personally would have hoped niche games like Iso RPGs to be spared from these tendencies.

 

But still, again, i like the option to be able to hide a hat :D Really hope i won't need it with Pillars 2, though.

 

While i can't really relate to explanations of the likes "It's game man, it's fantasy". It's lazy. It's comparable to "It makes me lose time and it's pointless", "it makes me click 3 times while it could be automatic", or "it forced me to backtrack since i couldn't allow myself to lower the difficulty level". Kind of. That's pretty much the reason we have a nice, convenient, auto heal feature in Pillars 2.

Edited by Abel
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Case in point:

 

 

Yeah, this. I'm happy about the feature to be able to hide one's hat, and will probably use it. I tend to do so sometimes.

 

But i still understand completely Gizmo's point. I noticed the same kind of things regarding complete different features of Pillars. There are many like this (Infinite Stash is the first coming to mind since everything Gizmo said could apply to it as well). These are what i call the "quality of life improvements", which are really just "let's cater to people's laziness". I probably would not be able to explain it myself, especially since i'm not fluent with english. But i would say this. We did not went from Fallout 1 to Fallout 4 without a slow evolution regarding what is considered as a "good" feature. To me, all the "good" features of Fallout 4 are pretty nasty. Things are evolving on a slippery slope in game design. I personally would have hoped niche games like Iso RPGs to be spared from these tendencies.

 

But still, again, i like the option to be able to hide a hat :D Really hope i won't need it with Pillars 2, though.

 

While i can't really relate to explanations of the likes "It's game man, it's fantasy". It's lazy. It's comparable to "It makes me lose time and it's pointless", "it makes me click 3 times while it could be automatic", or "it forced me to backtrack since i couldn't allow myself to lower the difficulty level". Kind of. That's pretty much the reason we have a nice, convenient, auto heal feature in Pillars 2.

 

You're welcome to assign some kind of greater value to yourself just because you want to do pointless busywork and call it "difficulty." But I'm also welcome to think it's really weird to assign some kind of moral value to pointless busywork and other things that just don't matter.

 

It's not even difficult! Without an infinite stash, the only difficulty is how many times you are willing to walk from one place to another while carrying stuff for a gain of money/stuff that does not exist because it is in a video game. That is busywork, not difficulty. Same with being able to change your party in more places than just the boat. The only "difficulty" there is walking to the boat when you've forgotten someone you needed for a sidequest.

 

You are getting a worksheet from your teacher that doesn't teach you anything but does keep your hands busy for long enough for her to catch a breath. And for some reason, you're really proud of the A you got on it.

 

PS: There were decades between Fallout 2 and the other Fallouts. That is not a "slippery slope" or a "slow evolution." They were also made by an entirely different group of people from the ones who made the first games. The first games were not first person shooters while the newer games basically are. Nothing about that change has anything to do with anything.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Case in point:

 

 

Yeah, this. I'm happy about the feature to be able to hide one's hat, and will probably use it. I tend to do so sometimes.

 

But i still understand completely Gizmo's point. I noticed the same kind of things regarding complete different features of Pillars. There are many like this (Infinite Stash is the first coming to mind since everything Gizmo said could apply to it as well). These are what i call the "quality of life improvements", which are really just "let's cater to people's laziness". I probably would not be able to explain it myself, especially since i'm not fluent with english. But i would say this. We did not went from Fallout 1 to Fallout 4 without a slow evolution regarding what is considered as a "good" feature. To me, all the "good" features of Fallout 4 are pretty nasty. Things are evolving on a slippery slope in game design. I personally would have hoped niche games like Iso RPGs to be spared from these tendencies.

 

But still, again, i like the option to be able to hide a hat :D Really hope i won't need it with Pillars 2, though.

 

While i can't really relate to explanations of the likes "It's game man, it's fantasy". It's lazy. It's comparable to "It makes me lose time and it's pointless", "it makes me click 3 times while it could be automatic", or "it forced me to backtrack since i couldn't allow myself to lower the difficulty level". Kind of. That's pretty much the reason we have a nice, convenient, auto heal feature in Pillars 2.

 

You're welcome to assign some kind of greater value to yourself just because you want to do pointless busywork and call it "difficulty." But I'm also welcome to think it's really weird to assign some kind of moral value to pointless busywork and other things that just don't matter.

 

I don't even need to read more than this. I never called anything difficulty. Never spoke of moral value. What you call pointless is just about your own opinion. And finally, you avoid to see our point deliberately, it seems, without even reading. Now, i don't feel obligated to do it either. Have a nice day.

Edited by Abel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is beyond amazing to me that anyone would actually be upset by this.

 

1. There are players who care about how their main character and party members look, both for purposes of immersion and raw aesthetic appeal. They also like to customize their characters with abilities and bonuses they earn through the acquisition of loot.

 

2. Some of the hats and capes in the game look ******* stupid.

 

3. Amulets, rings, boots, and belts are already invisible. Allowing players to apply the same to hats so they don't have to choose between optimization and appearance hurts exactly 0 people.

 

4. Does Eder smoking his pipe while wearing a frog helm make sense to you?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would it be acceptable if 'scroll of the invisible hat' were an item purchasable from a vendor? Seems pretty mundane as far as magic is concerned. What if it were an ability? Given how people can learn to make their entire selves invisible by special training or just chug a potion you'd think it would be a mere parlor trick to apply this to just the hat. I could see it being in high demand in the adventuring world as well, 'blindsided much? now you can enjoy the benefits of peripheral vision while wearing your favorite frog helmet!'

 

Maybe the hide hat button should be moved from the character interface to the abilities, and the character would do some hand gestures and go 'humlamumlabumla' before the hat disappears. Just so everything makes sense and the kids don't get any funny ideas. Wouldn't want them to get self-absorbed and start blowing things out of proportion.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's kind of imaginative, and there is some constructive mindset behind this post.

 

 

 

'blindsided much? now you can enjoy the benefits of peripheral vision while wearing your favorite frog helmet!'

 

This has some kind of Arcanum flavor to it. I love the descriptions in this game so much ;)

 

If it were to appear as a mod sometime, i would gladfully try it, and see for myself if it helps immersion. They should create some kind of lore explanation for the Infinite Stash in the same way, like an item description explaining what it actually is, how you found it, and why despite it looking like a full-sized chest, you will never notice it's there in game. Instead of just throwing it in the game like this, basically saying "yeah, it's there... Just because... well, it's there.", the way crafting was.

Edited by Abel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm fine with a hide the helmet button being in any game, but ~IMO~ if used, the PC should be vulnerable to headshots, and critical hits, because they are not wearing the helmet.

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

And if he isn't, then... wow :getlost:


Shadow Thief of the Obsidian Order


My Backloggery

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm fine with a hide the helmet button being in any game, but ~IMO~ if used, the PC should be vulnerable to headshots, and critical hits, because they are not wearing the helmet.

Obvious troll is obvious.

 

And if he isn't, then... wow :getlost:

 

 

 

Once again, i dont think hats is really the whole problem for him here. I believe he's more worried about "what comes next". After all, RPGs have changed a lot over time. I think people here (not everyone, certainly) will agree on the idea that games like Fallout 4, or DA II and III have lost many important things over time. I believe that what he is pointing out to is not just this hat thing, which is basically a detail. But it's a detail that seems to show that Obsidian may go the same route as Bethesda and Bioware in the future.

 

This worries me too. Since before the release of Pillars 1. You can still argue that this feature (and others i pointed out) are just details, and don't necessarily mean that Pillars 4 will be like Fallout 4. You would be right. But still, it worries me. Because when a developer starts including several "convenient" features in a game, then more of them in its sequel, past has proved me that it always end in the same way.

 

Just stop for 3 minutes, and think about this. Whether you like the new health system or not, don't you think that the evolution of this system from IE games to Pillars 1, and now Pillars 2 tend to show some tendencies in the mindset behind the game developement? Maybe you love the new system, and that's ok. But it is not the point of whether we like it or not here. The point is more about "Pillars franchise seem to take some route and evolve in some ways. If things are, as a whole, more mainstreamed in some ways from one game to its sequel, then are you sure you will still like Pillars 4?" Or something like this.

 

I really believe it's too late to point things when they already happened. You can't do anything anymore about the Fallout 4 dialogue system. I just hope that you will try to consider what i am writing. Take some time. And afterwards, you're free to disagree, to say that you love Fallout 4, or that you believe Obsidian would never do that. I just want you to consider how different people see things. If you're standing still watching a building from the NE, you'll have no idea what someone doing the same from the SO is seeing. Unless you take some time to find out by moving to the SO.

 

My point is basically just this.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is actually a very fair point now. Look at what happened to Dragon Age. Origins was a fantastic cRPG, next two were just some dumbed-down console garbage. I do hope Obsidian never goes that way with PoE, which at this point is probably the only true successor to old real-time with active pause games..

 

One good thing about Fallout 4 dialogues was that "dumbing down" this system allowed them to use voiceovers, which I immensly enjoyed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I think people here (not everyone, certainly) will agree on the idea that games like Fallout 4, or DA II and III have lost many important things over time.

 

And how is hat hiding representative of this trend? Did it replace some more involved, intricate hat-visibility system? Exactly what is being lost here?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I think people here (not everyone, certainly) will agree on the idea that games like Fallout 4, or DA II and III have lost many important things over time.

 

And how is hat hiding representative of this trend? Did it replace some more involved, intricate hat-visibility system? Exactly what is being lost here?

 

 

I think the true debate actually lies here since the very start :). Thanks for your input. I'm not sure myself about the answer to that. I would say some other mechanics in Pillars games are representative of this trend to me. The hide hats things can probably be considered in one way or another, depending on the person. Even though i'm not sure myself, i can see how some here can see it as representative of the same trend, too.

 

But the reason i'm not sure myself is that even though it looks like ''get all avantages whithout the inconveniences'', at the same time, it is not a game mechanic that replaced some other older systems in order to make things more convenient for the player. Making things more convenient is not a bad thing in itself, but it tends to become one for me when all it does is cutting things considered by some as tedious. "Why keep a health system? It only forces players to heal their characters manually, let's just auto heal". But the problem here is that, they did not only removed the hassle to heal a character manually. They took away health/resource management at the same time, like it was nothing. And i think here lies the problem, and here starts the slippery slope. Especially when people will explain me that this system is fine, because it removes the hassle of manual healing, without even considering what it is we lost along with the said hassle.

 

In short, i tend to believe that there is a thin line between quality of life improvements, and dumbed down mechanics. Line that many RPGs these days have happily crossed long ago.

Edited by Abel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

''get all avantages whithout the inconveniences''

 

I mean, that would depend on hats being balanced around appearance. The inconvenience of an ugly hat would be a very subjective matter, and thus a very silly thing to balance around, and I have no reason to suspect Obsidian attempted that here. I can't say I've noticed this ever being a consideration in RPG design. Maybe the Monk Head Wrappings in Demon Souls, but that blocks half your screen, it's not merely 'ugly'.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, I completely understand the concern with the general, progressive dumbing down of game mechanics—however, I would be wary of classifying every single convenience feature as "dumbing down." The matter at hand is especially alien to the very concept on the grounds that it pertains to aesthetic choices, which per se only impact the personal taste of the individual gamer; other convenience features may or may not qualify. Making something tedious/boring is not a good way to balance it or prevent it. There should be in-game incentives to pursue a specific course of action and/or in-game consequences for indulging in another; designing restrictions around making an activity tedious in real life is just a deliberate waste of the player's time (and may I remind you that time is rather precious.)

 

As far as my personal experience is concerned, to make an example, the camping supply mechanic in Pillars of Eternity was not an incentive to keep dungeon-crawling while injured, out of spells, or otherwise not at the apex of my power. Limiting camping supplies merely made rest-spam tedious in real life as I had to backtrack every time I needed more, but the game still allowed it consequence free if I was willing to be appalled outside of it. All this encouraged for me was cheating so I could get the supplies without backtracking.

Edited by AndreaColombo
  • Like 2

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as my personal experience is concerned, to make an example, the camping supply mechanic in Pillars of Eternity was not an incentive to keep dungeon-crawling while injured, out of spells, or otherwise not at the apex of my power. Limiting camping supplies merely made rest-spam tedious in real life as I had to backtrack every time I needed more, but the game still allowed it consequence free if I was willing to be appalled outside of it. All this encouraged for me was cheating so I could get the supplies without backtracking.

 

Aye, it's just a token restriction. It's not like you are on a timer or the dungeon fills up again if you leave. It don't see how this is a slippery slope either, since from what I can remember of Baldurs Gate, you could spam rest at no cost until fully healed. Seems to be one area where fiddling have been added rather than removed.

 

Besides, you'll always have smashing, slashing and bashing in infinite supply. Choking abilities is just buffing passives.

 

@Abel, if your immersion is irked by invisible hats and unexplained bottomless boxes, how does it handle that a party of 6, already lugging an army's worth of arms and armor around, is only capable of carrying two bundles of firewood, despite this functionally being the most powerful resource in the entire world? Doesn't that seem a bit arbitrary?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As far as my personal experience is concerned, to make an example, the camping supply mechanic in Pillars of Eternity was not an incentive to keep dungeon-crawling while injured, out of spells, or otherwise not at the apex of my power. Limiting camping supplies merely made rest-spam tedious in real life as I had to backtrack every time I needed more, but the game still allowed it consequence free if I was willing to be appalled outside of it. All this encouraged for me was cheating so I could get the supplies without backtracking.

 

@Abel, if your immersion is irked by invisible hats and unexplained bottomless boxes, how does it handle that a party of 6, already lugging an army's worth of arms and armor around, is only capable of carrying two bundles of firewood, despite this functionally being the most powerful resource in the entire world? Doesn't that seem a bit arbitrary?

 

 

You are exactly right. I never said i liked the Pillars 1 system, either. I'd still rather have Pillars 1 system over Pillars 2, though. Like i said, i'm not irked, personally, by invisible hats ;). But i can understand why one would be. But well, the whole point was not really about a matter of personal preferences. Personnal preferences are besides my point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...