Why does every class have to have magic?

[Yakmann]

I believe Divinity.OS 2 does this much worse. Deadfire is fine, since there's still a great disparity in presentation between martial skills and spells.
In BG2 I always thought of it this way: I wasn't really playing one character, but a single group. So it didn't bother me that fighters were weaker than spellcasters, since they were still valuable to the group. Deadfire seems to go for an approach where every character is more or less equally powerful.

[Darkprince048]

 

You all took everything way out of context. I never said I wanted less magic, I said I wanted the wizard to have a role in lore. This is one of the issues with this new generarion of gamers. Nobody has an imagination, they just care about min maxing their toon to be uber OP. They put zero thought into the actual lore behind a character they are making.

 

If any Joe shmoe can use magic, then what role does the wizard have? What makes the wizard different? Absolutly nothing lore wise. "Ranged vs melee" is a ridiculous argument. And if a fighter is just an up close spell caster, cuz dats cool dude, then we have really lost sight of things.

 

The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game?

 

And no, its not just my understanding of a fighter and barbarian. The definition of a fighter or barbarian is pretty universal, and it doesn't generally involve the use of sorcery... How many UFC champions do you know that are scientists? How many front line fighters are scientists? Its rare. Why? Because the qualities that are involved with each of those professions don't usually match. Hence the concept of mage vs warrior. It really is not that hard to understand

Who are you even responding to?

 

Also lol, blaming "this new generation of gamers."

I was responding to several people at once. And if you notice, a lot of people missing the point, in that I was focused on lore, as they went on about gameplay mechanics and how to make their characters cool and powerful, irrespective of any deep thought process. Which is my point exactly. This generation lacks imagination. Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Darkprince048]

I believe Divinity.OS 2 does this much worse. Deadfire is fine, since there's still a great disparity in presentation between martial skills and spells.

In BG2 I always thought of it this way: I wasn't really playing one character, but a single group. So it didn't bother me that fighters were weaker than spellcasters, since they were still valuable to the group. Deadfire seems to go for an approach where every character is more or less equally powerful.

You are right and for that reason, I refunded that game in 5 mins. Trash as far as I am concerned. But people today won't think twice about it, because they put zero thought into a character beyond "how can i make this toon the most powerful I can"

 

Because you know RP is for homos, even though the first two letters in RPG are.....

 

Give dem big splosions, and cool effects, and they will love it... What happened to this industry?

Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Darkprince048]

 

Not sure why you thought I insulted CM - it was an example of a system that makes martial classes use martial rules and abilities, instead of ninja magic soul abilities; but since it's more complicated (power pool in real time wouldn't work), we don't see this kind of design often. I am all up for martial classes having things to do in combat, but if they are, as OP stated, are just another form of magic, there's little roleplaying (and, frankly, systemic - hobbled is what hobbled does for both rogues and druids for example) difference.

 

I'm not gonna do the quote-by-quote because it's a pain and I don't care that much

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol.

Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

Sure, I can explain. So you want to role play a wizard. Great. How wizardly do you feel when that brute barbarian over there lights up his weapon in magical fire and tosses it at his enemy, exploding in a ball of flame as if he is Ares, God of war himself? And then that back alley cutthroat over there waves his hand and dissapears in a cloud of purple smoke, and teleports across the room to stab you in the back. All those years studying magic with your pretty book, and spells that take ages to cast, and any Tom **** or Harry can throw around spells like its nothing. Bet you are loving that "wizard".

 

Heck, what good is going to medical school when some 18 year old is practicing medicine out of his garrage with a high school degree. Why go to school for nuclear physics if the tech is so easy to understand that my 12 year old niece could build nukes in the back yard. Are you getting it??

Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048

[Not Hypebringer]

Pretty wizardry. I don't see your point. They are able to do supernatural things. They aren't casting spells.

It looks like you don't like the setting, but who cares really? Find the other ones. That's like I didn't like space operas and wrote to Bioware "Hey, make Mass Effect a fantasy game please". This setting has it's own principles and aesthetics, they aren't going to change and most people enjoy them.

[wih]

 

 

Not sure why you thought I insulted CM - it was an example of a system that makes martial classes use martial rules and abilities, instead of ninja magic soul abilities; but since it's more complicated (power pool in real time wouldn't work), we don't see this kind of design often. I am all up for martial classes having things to do in combat, but if they are, as OP stated, are just another form of magic, there's little roleplaying (and, frankly, systemic - hobbled is what hobbled does for both rogues and druids for example) difference.

I'm not gonna do the quote-by-quote because it's a pain and I don't care that much

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol.

Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

Sure, I can explain. So you want to role play a wizard. Great. How wizardly do you feel when that brute barbarian over there lights up his weapon in magical fire and tosses it at his enemy, exploding in a ball of flame as if he is Ares, God of war himself? And then that back alley cutthroat over there waves his hand and dissapears in a cloud of purple smoke, and teleports across the room to stab you in the back. All those years studying magic with your pretty book, and spells that take ages to cast, and any Tom **** or Harry can throw around spells like its nothing. Bet you are loving that "wizard".

 

Heck, what good is going to medical school when some 18 year old is practicing medicine out of his garrage with a high school degree. Why go to school for nuclear physics if the tech is so easy to understand that my 12 year old niece could build nukes in the back yard. Are you getting it??

 

 

I always assumed that those barbarian and fighter abilities were not magical in nature but  developers wanted to make them cool and added all kinds of visual effects so now they look like magic. The other day in PoE 1 (White March) I watched some large ogre throw a snowball at me and that snowball was bright and shining as if it wasn't a physical object but was created by magic.

Those visual effects are overdone in my opinion and make the combat scene harder to read which is a known problem.

 

But you are not required to think about them as magical even if other players do. Those games involve player's imagination anyway so who's to tell you how to interpret the setting.

Edited June 10, 2018 by wih

[gloomseeker]

You all took everything way out of context. I never said I wanted less magic, I said I wanted the wizard to have a role in lore. This is one of the issues with this new generarion of gamers. Nobody has an imagination, they just care about min maxing their toon to be uber OP. They put zero thought into the actual lore behind a character they are making.

 

If any Joe shmoe can use magic, then what role does the wizard have? What makes the wizard different? Absolutly nothing lore wise. "Ranged vs melee" is a ridiculous argument. And if a fighter is just an up close spell caster, cuz dats cool dude, then we have really lost sight of things.

 

The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game?

 

And no, its not just my understanding of a fighter and barbarian. The definition of a fighter or barbarian is pretty universal, and it doesn't generally involve the use of sorcery... How many UFC champions do you know that are scientists? How many front line fighters are scientists? Its rare. Why? Because the qualities that are involved with each of those professions don't usually match. Hence the concept of mage vs warrior. It really is not that hard to understand

 

If you can't see the difference between a Mage and a Fighter in Deadfire then I'm afraid it's not the game that is at fault. 

 

You take a very narrow view of what magic is supposed to be and for that reason alone you can't expect everyone to agree with you. 

 

There is no reason why there can't be different types of magic or that the nerdy latin magic that you love can't exist in the same universe with shamanic powers, runic warriors or any other type of magic. 

 

When it comes to roleplaying games the only limiting factor is imagination. That's true of pen and paper games and to a lesser extent that's also true of computer games. 

 

Also you must be new to these games if you really believe that powergaming is something that the "new generation" came up with. 

 

Last but not least, as a guy in his 40s I can tell you that it's not a question of age but a question of open mindedness. If you don't like what the game has to offer it's fine, but bad mouthing people who do or the game developers is way out of line. Just because people don't abide by your own restrictions and self imposed limitations doesn't mean that they're not roleplaying or using the powers of their imagination (it's quite the opposite actually). 

[Neckbitbasket]

 

 

Not sure why you thought I insulted CM - it was an example of a system that makes martial classes use martial rules and abilities, instead of ninja magic soul abilities; but since it's more complicated (power pool in real time wouldn't work), we don't see this kind of design often. I am all up for martial classes having things to do in combat, but if they are, as OP stated, are just another form of magic, there's little roleplaying (and, frankly, systemic - hobbled is what hobbled does for both rogues and druids for example) difference.

I'm not gonna do the quote-by-quote because it's a pain and I don't care that much

I wonder how much you write in comparison when you do care lol.

Care to explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

Sure, I can explain. So you want to role play a wizard. Great. How wizardly do you feel when that brute barbarian over there lights up his weapon in magical fire and tosses it at his enemy, exploding in a ball of flame as if he is Ares, God of war himself? And then that back alley cutthroat over there waves his hand and dissapears in a cloud of purple smoke, and teleports across the room to stab you in the back. All those years studying magic with your pretty book, and spells that take ages to cast, and any Tom **** or Harry can throw around spells like its nothing. Bet you are loving that "wizard".

 

Heck, what good is going to medical school when some 18 year old is practicing medicine out of his garrage with a high school degree. Why go to school for nuclear physics if the tech is so easy to understand that my 12 year old niece could build nukes in the back yard. Are you getting it??

 

 

The idea of wizards is that they "focus" on honing their magic. Rogues can teleport, sure, but they can't do much else. Barbarians can create spirit tornadoes, but once again, not much else. (I don't mean combat-wise btw, just specifically with regards to "magical" abilities). The way I tend to think of these are as supernatural manifestations of their martial abilities. A rogue isn't someone's 12 year old niece; they are a highly skilled, trained killer. As such, they have trained enough to manifest very specific, niche supernatural abilities that supplement their specialization. 

 

Wizards, on the other hand, who focus on the intensive study of Arcana have developed a far more diverse and powerful arsenal of supernatural powers which they wield as spells. Last time I checked, Barbarians can't drop meteors from the sky. Neither can Rogues. Nor can either class fire missiles from their hands. 

 

The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game?

 

This to me shows gross inexperience with the fantasy genre. D&D - the cornerstone of modern fantasy - has CHARISMA CASTERS who intuitively channel magic (i.e. Sorcerers and Warlocks). Tolkien's Wizards are literally divine entities. The magic in Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series is practiced and honed similarly to how one would train their body. Only the Gods and Priests seem to know how magic works in GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire series, and even that is up in the air. The Kingkiller Chronicles actually deconstructs this notion with the dichotomy of Sympathy vs Naming.

 

Sp, where are you getting this idea of magic being exclusive to intellectuals from? Why do you assume it is so universal when it really isn't?

[Wormerine]

As PoE is a heavily abstracted game, I don’t take the moves literally. Rogue “hides in shadows”, fighter charges or pulls enemy toward him. They do it the way they do it, because it makes for clear and snappy gameplay. I never imagined Eder teleporting through the air or magically pulling enemies toward him.

 

I do remember being somewhat surprised when Barbarian’s leap was introduced in PoE in WM1. However, gameplay advantages did overshadow the need for suspension of disbelief. If that’s too much for you to get over it, well... I am sorry to hear that.

[Baltic]

As PoE is a heavily abstracted game, I don’t take the moves literally. Rogue “hides in shadows”, fighter charges or pulls enemy toward him. They do it the way they do it, because it makes for clear and snappy gameplay. I never imagined Eder teleporting through the air or magically pulling enemies toward him.

I do remember being somewhat surprised when Barbarian’s leap was introduced in PoE in WM1. However, gameplay advantages did overshadow the need for suspension of disbelief. If that’s too much for you to get over it, well... I am sorry to hear that.

That’s interesting, because the impression I got was that unlike in Dragon Age, for example where rogues and warriors cannot use magic and thus their moves are just abstractions, in Pillars the idea was those moves were literally happening, being accomplished by the use of magic. I don’t know, I may be wrong.

[Loren Tyr]

You all took everything way out of context. I never said I wanted less magic, I said I wanted the wizard to have a role in lore. This is one of the issues with this new generarion of gamers. Nobody has an imagination, they just care about min maxing their toon to be uber OP. They put zero thought into the actual lore behind a character they are making.

 

If any Joe shmoe can use magic, then what role does the wizard have? What makes the wizard different? Absolutly nothing lore wise. "Ranged vs melee" is a ridiculous argument. And if a fighter is just an up close spell caster, cuz dats cool dude, then we have really lost sight of things.

 

The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game?

 

And no, its not just my understanding of a fighter and barbarian. The definition of a fighter or barbarian is pretty universal, and it doesn't generally involve the use of sorcery... How many UFC champions do you know that are scientists? How many front line fighters are scientists? Its rare. Why? Because the qualities that are involved with each of those professions don't usually match. Hence the concept of mage vs warrior. It really is not that hard to understand

 

You were criticising the fact that many non-caster classes have (seemingly) magical abilities. Reasonably it follows that you would want those classes to not have such abilities, which in effect is arguing that there should be less magic. So what was taken out of context, exactly? I would also note that the fact that you disagree with the end result is hardly evidence that the creators put zero though into it.

 

Your comparison between magic and science also falls flat. Science is the systematic study of our reality, which is distinct of that reality itself (yes I know, philosophical discussions here abound, but I'll stick the essence of it). The rules and regularities by which that reality operates did so long before humans and science came along, and will continue to do so long after humanity has vanished. In an alternate reality that differs from our own, that contains forces we would call 'magic', that magic is part of the reality. It would also be distinct of the practice of, or study of, that magic.

 

Wizardry therefore might be considered akin to science, with magic its object of study and/or the core of its practice. Or a proto-science or craft anyway, in most settings it's not developed and systematic enough to equate to modern science. Regardless of how you define it exactly, the point is the same: systematically studying, and practicing manipulation of, forces of nature and such can be a very fruitful enterprise, but it is hardly a prerequisite for using those forces. Humans have been able to use, say, the force of gravity for as long as we have existed, long before any scientist came along to theorize about it. If there were something like magic, and there were some capacity for biological organisms to tap into that, then the use of magic will inherently have predated any more formalized study of it.

 

Even in a world where the use of magic is predominantly the domain of wizards, there must have been a period before there was any formalized wizardry; people must have somehow discovered this ability, they will have used it to their advantage. There is no particular reason to suppose that once something like wizardry started to arise, all people with any ability to manipulate magic will have ended up being wizards. Realistically this ability will vary in a fairly continuous fashion across individuals, like intellect, physical strength, etc. do in our reality. Even if all the people with high magical aptitude ended up as wizards (which is a big stretch sociologically anyway, and not all cultures would have such institutions anyway nor would those be the same across cultures), there would still be a majority of people in any population that has some lesser level of magical aptitude and would certainly make use of that in their daily lives. Just as clearly not all intelligent people become scientists (and not nearly all scientists are intelligent, moreover), and people who are not scientists will use their intelligence for whatever else they choose to do. 

 

So no, the idea that the use of magic would be inherently restricted to very specific subsets of people, especially specific socially / culturally defined subsets, is deeply implausible. It can certainly be justified in specific settings (though even then it wouldn't be *that* binary, in most scenarios), but that takes quite a bit of extra work; if we think of what a reality with magic in it would look like, you'd have to come up with a lot more restrictions on it for that to be the case. So while that may the kind of fantasy setting you prefer, the notion that this is how magic should or is supposed to be in fantasy settings is ridiculous. Nor does the fact that it is a common trope in fiction, in various forms. It's also rather rich to accuse creators of lacking imagination and putting in zero thought when they elect to not follow common traditions from fantasy settings. Surely, the least effortful and imaginitive would be sticking to those traditions, rather than diverging from them.

[Shadenuat]

OP basically has trouble with magic not being magical, because there's too much of it. Basically this

 

And it's not like PoE setting has a particularly clever interpretation what magic is or even makes a good job at creating awesome rules for soul magic and how it works. It's basically "souls, so people leap in air and do meteor showers". So I don't see why there's so much thrown at op because PoE setting did not seem believable to him. It's not like it makes enough work to make you believe in it.

[Wormerine]

 

 

That’s interesting, because the impression I got was that unlike in Dragon Age, for example where rogues and warriors cannot use magic and thus their moves are just abstractions, in Pillars the idea was those moves were literally happening, being accomplished by the use of magic. I don’t know, I may be wrong.

I never digged deeper into the lore beyond what is in the game. Reading ability description it could be assumed that characters are literally doing what we see them do. At the same time ability descriptions could just describe what will happen in game. Never bothered me too much, never gave it much thought until now. I find a lot of gameplay elements in PoE to be highly abstract, maybe too abstract in some cases (attributes for example.)

 

Granted all magic in Deadfire comes from soul, and all characters have soul. Melee fighter could channel their soul power to do some physically impossible stuff, but using “souls magic” to do Jedi stuff does seem a bit lame. Moving large, living, physical objects across the battlefield do seem to be near the level of what wizards can do.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Wormerine

[Shadenuat]

Granted all magic in Deadfire comes from soul, and all characters have soul

This means literally nothing, because there is nothing clear cut about what souls are. You can say that all magic comes from waffles, and everyone can have waffles. It's same as description of Magic missile in D&D - what is the spell about? Well, it's magic. missile. Magic alright? So you don't need any more explanation.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Shadenuat

[Loren Tyr]

And it's not like PoE setting has a particularly clever interpretation what magic is or even makes a good job at creating awesome rules for soul magic and how it works. It's basically "souls, so people leap in air and do meteor showers". So I don't see why there's so much thrown at op because PoE setting did not seem believable to him. It's not like it makes enough work to make you believe in it.

 

Except that his argument seems to be just that (heavily paraphrasing): "I don't like it / it's not believable, because everyone has (seemingly) magical abilities to varying degrees". His objection seems to be just the mere fact of ubiquitous magic, and presumably would still be the same had Obsidian written a 500-page tome describing the exact rules of its reality, and the way souls and magic figure into that. The whole "[person] has this ability because souls" certainly isn't deeply compelling, and I'd love to have seen these sorts of things fleshed out more. But that is an entirely different discussion. 

[Lokithecat]

You all took everything way out of context. I never said I wanted less magic, I said I wanted the wizard to have a role in lore. This is one of the issues with this new generarion of gamers. Nobody has an imagination, they just care about min maxing their toon to be uber OP. They put zero thought into the actual lore behind a character they are making.

 

If any Joe shmoe can use magic, then what role does the wizard have? What makes the wizard different? Absolutly nothing lore wise. "Ranged vs melee" is a ridiculous argument. And if a fighter is just an up close spell caster, cuz dats cool dude, then we have really lost sight of things.

 

The concept of magic is very similar to science in the real world. Not just anybody can become an astrophysicist. It takes intelligence, understanding of advanced concepts and years of study. The concept of magic is largly the same in most fantasy settings. I mean, why even have classes in the game?

 

And no, its not just my understanding of a fighter and barbarian. The definition of a fighter or barbarian is pretty universal, and it doesn't generally involve the use of sorcery... How many UFC champions do you know that are scientists? How many front line fighters are scientists? Its rare. Why? Because the qualities that are involved with each of those professions don't usually match. Hence the concept of mage vs warrior. It really is not that hard to understand

 

In this (and many) fantasy settings you can often be any sort of character as any sort of class.  If you want to play a wizard that is a moron, you aren't barred from it, you might just end up terrible at your role.  Games are generally built to be inclusive, more than 'you / your character can't do that'.

 

As for some sort of specialized 'lore' reasoning for wizards, the game provides many.  However those examples, aren't things that a character who is busy saving the world has time to explore in a meaningful way.  The Wizard that runs that Dark Cupboard, is obviously 'a wizard'.  He's got a magic shop that sells his creations, an apprentice, an army of Imps, and constructs, and spends time wandering around casting illusions on himself for kicks.  He has a scrying pool to chat with his wizard buddies, and is part of some sort of wizard council.  I don't know how you can claim that there isn't any sort of 'lore' about wizards with character like this in.  Other wizards are running an observatory, and trying to figure out the secrets of the universe. 

 

This is all obviously very much different than what the other classes do.

 

You need to remember, at the end of the day, this game isn't an 'in depth exploration of an open developed world' as much as 'a Hero has to deal with an emergency in a small province'.

[Wormerine]

 

Granted all magic in Deadfire comes from soul, and all characters have soul

This means literally nothing, because there is nothing clear cut about what souls are. You can say that all magic comes from waffles, and everyone can have waffles. It's same as description of Magic missile in D&D - what is the spell about? Well, it's magic. missile. Magic alright? So you don't need any more explanation.

Yeah, just like Force in SW, magic in pretty much everything that has magic in it, nanomachines in MGS. 

 

I am not saying that makes it good - as I have mentioned before, I treat those moves as an abstraction. Are they? I honestly don't know, and don't really care. Magic in PoE always felt to me like "because D&D had magic". This whole: how do priests/wizards/chanters channel their magic - I am not really interested in that.

[Shadenuat]

I'd say Force in SW if we just take episodes 4 and 5 is actually a good version of mysterious magic. And it also serves the morality of the setting which is another thing going for it.

 

explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

 

There are a lot of players who want to play the archetype "normal person goes against improbable odds and wins". RP wise these are characters like say Conan the barbarian who distrusts magic and only  uses his muscles and guile to defeat powerful wizards, or Garett the thief who uses some magic like magic arrows, but still uses only his guile and stealth to defeat incredible things like a demon, by stealing it's magic eye a-la "outsmart the god" story. I even had pleasure to play with players who even don't want to use magic items because it doesn't suit their style/definition of what munchkinism is.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Shadenuat

[wih]

 

 

Granted all magic in Deadfire comes from soul, and all characters have soul

This means literally nothing, because there is nothing clear cut about what souls are. You can say that all magic comes from waffles, and everyone can have waffles. It's same as description of Magic missile in D&D - what is the spell about? Well, it's magic. missile. Magic alright? So you don't need any more explanation.

Yeah, just like Force in SW, magic in pretty much everything that has magic in it, nanomachines in MGS. 

 

I am not saying that makes it good - as I have mentioned before, I treat those moves as an abstraction. Are they? I honestly don't know, and don't really care. Magic in PoE always felt to me like "because D&D had magic". This whole: how do priests/wizards/chanters channel their magic - I am not really interested in that.

 

 

 

 

 

Granted all magic in Deadfire comes from soul, and all characters have soul

This means literally nothing, because there is nothing clear cut about what souls are. You can say that all magic comes from waffles, and everyone can have waffles. It's same as description of Magic missile in D&D - what is the spell about? Well, it's magic. missile. Magic alright? So you don't need any more explanation.

Yeah, just like Force in SW, magic in pretty much everything that has magic in it, nanomachines in MGS. 

 

I am not saying that makes it good - as I have mentioned before, I treat those moves as an abstraction. Are they? I honestly don't know, and don't really care. Magic in PoE always felt to me like "because D&D had magic". This whole: how do priests/wizards/chanters channel their magic - I am not really interested in that.

 

 

Agree. A game engine is always going to be much cruder than the reality we live in, so abstractions are inevitable and desirable. The fireball in Infinity games is described to allow reflex saving throws and successful roll meant your character managed to hide behind a stone or jump or something like that. However it is never shown how your character does it. They just stand there, seemingly taking the full force of the fireball but only suffer half damage. 

It is the same with Escape ability in PoE. The rogue seems to teleport but this is an abstraction for them using a moment when the enemy is distracted to "disappear" and then suddenly appear somewhere else. Without this abstraction Escape ability will be ruined by the game's pathfinding.

 

Is Josh Sawyer going to tell us "No, these are not abstractions and these are soul magics"? I don't think so because what's the point? The game has it's rule system and that is what is needed - the computer needs some rules to be able to resolve the combat.

 

I even imagine that Intellect stat is actually some abstract stat that determines the duration and AOE of abilities and I don't try to understand how the barbarian's sword can reach farther if the said barbarian is more intelligent.

[AlphaShard]

I've been using Eder as a Rogue/Fighter and not once have I seen him cast any sort of spell. He has mule kick, knockdown, hobble, wide swing, etc none of those are Wizard level abilities. 

[Neckbitbasket]

I'd say Force in SW if we just take episodes 4 and 5 is actually a good version of mysterious magic. And it also serves the morality of the setting which is another thing going for it.

 

explain how every classes' use of magic restricts variety in roleplaying?

 

There are a lot of players who want to play the archetype "normal person goes against improbable odds and wins". RP wise these are characters like say Conan the barbarian who distrusts magic and only  uses his muscles and guile to defeat powerful wizards, or Garett the thief who uses some magic like magic arrows, but still uses only his guile and stealth to defeat incredible things like a demon, by stealing it's magic eye a-la "outsmart the god" story. I even had pleasure to play with players who even don't want to use magic items because it doesn't suit their style/definition of what munchkinism is.

 

I understand your point, but I disagree with the OP's conceit that any game that doesn't cater to this style is inherently worse than one that does. Just like the Witcher isn't worse than Skyrim for being less of a character sandbox. Part of roleplaying is creating characters that fit into the logic of the setting, and in a setting where magic is basically part of the natural order, distrusting it would be like distrusting gravity (which granted, some people do). 

 

I also fundamentally disagree with the OP's narrow projection of what fantasy and magic should and shouldn't be, but of course, I covered that in my last post. I would be interested to hear your opinion on that.

[Dodo00d]

That something I love about Dragon Age, magic  is special there and only those who are born with it can use it. The problem is that a society where everyone can throw fireballs just isn't believable. Problem is most people just want to cast spells in their fantasy worlds without thinking how such a world could work.

[Elerond]

PoE was from start to aimed to be high magic system, which is why there are lots of magic. We can see that in many things like tangible gods that actively meddle in mortal bussiness and whose powers have immediate and easy to see results. World is full of substance called adra which stores energy from the souls, energy which is relatively easy to manipulate to do things. Everybody knows that souls exist, because souls are also tangible things that people can see and interact with. People know that souls go through recycling which leads people some born with memories of people that live before them. And there is scientific sect called animancy that devotes their time to study and master manipulating soul energy and souls.

 

By game's lore people of Eora are able to manipulate souls and energy of those souls based on strength of their own souls. Way they manipulate said souls and energy depends on lots of things. Game's classes are based on those things and they all have different reason why they can manipulate souls.

 

Wizards for example spent their lives to study soul energy and how to manipulate it in different ways, which is why wizards in PoE have most variety in things that they can do with their abilities and why they have grimoires which they can use to manipulate that energy even more.

 

Priest draw strength from their belief towards their chosen god, even though power comes from their own soul and not from the gods it is still their belief and customs that gives them ability to do things.

 

Paladin's devote their lives to do something and it is that devotion to cause which is their key to manipulate soul energy around them.

 

Ciphers are people who have inherited higher sensitivity towards souls around them which gives them ability to manipulate those souls in ways that other people just can't do.

 

Fighters harnest power from their own souls through discipline and training that lets them strength to do thing that person would not otherwise be able to do.

 

Druids source of power is similar to priest, but they tune with nature and Eora itself instead of gods, but its is still their belief, traditions and customs that give them ability to manipulate soul energy around them.

 

Rangers also tune with nature, but their focus is in hunt and their soul's unique ability to bond with animals that drives how they manipulate soul energy around them.

 

Rogues are similar to fighters, but instead of focusing on making themselves better they focus on how to distract people, find their weaknesses or anything that gives them edge that lets them to achive their goals.

 

Chanters use their knowledge of legends and other things to harnest strength to make souls around them do their bidding.

 

Monks have found different ways to harnest power of their soul through pain and self harm.

 

Barbarians have found way to harnest power of their soul through driving themself in state of rage

 

All class abilities in PoE focus on combat because of nature of game.

 

So at end the question isn't why everybody can do magic, but why wouldn't everybody could use magic in some way in such setting.

[Loren Tyr]

That something I love about Dragon Age, magic  is special there and only those who are born with it can use it. The problem is that a society where everyone can throw fireballs just isn't believable. Problem is most people just want to cast spells in their fantasy worlds without thinking how such a world could work.

 

Firstly, even though PoE is a high magic setting, it's hardly like everyone's throwing fireballs around. Many of the abilities on non-caster classes can easily be explained as mundane or mundane-adjacent (eg. maybe tapping into something slightly magical, but nothing on the level of proper spellwork), in conjunction with the constraints of having to present it in a practical way. For example the Rogue's Escape ability can simply be seen as a mundane skill, an ability to maneauver quickly through a melee situation without being hit; with the visual effects there simply to make clear to players what is going on, and the 'teleport' aspect merely a convenient game mechanic (clearly what is shown on screen is not meant to be literal anyway).

 

But secondly, why would a reality where everyone has magical abilities to varying degrees be less believable than one where only some people have magical ability, exactly? Certainly one can think of scenarios where only a few people have it (eg. it's bestowed by divine favour from some deity), but there is no particular reason to see that as the norm. And even if it were the norm in fantasy settings, that still would not make the alternative not believable. Looking at our own reality, human abilities and dispositions and such are almost invariably distributed along some continuous scale (and usually well-modeled by a normal distribution as well), in particular if they are inherited (and many of the ones that are not are of the sort you really don't want). So I would argue that if anything is the more believable default scenario, it would be the one where everyone has some level of magical aptitude.

[Darkprince048]

That something I love about Dragon Age, magic is special there and only those who are born with it can use it. The problem is that a society where everyone can throw fireballs just isn't believable. Problem is most people just want to cast spells in their fantasy worlds without thinking how such a world could work.

You hit the nail on the head. I think many of these objectors understand exactly what we are saying, but because they enjoy the game, they will defend it as if they have no idea what we are talking about. Look guys, it is very simple. If you are going to have classes in your game, and you are going to name them by classic archtypes, you have to make them different and fit those classic archtypes. What is it about the wizard that most people find interesting or makes them want to play one? MAGIC. If you give that magic to every class, it makes the wizard a whole lot less fun to play, because he loses what makes his class special. If you relegate the difference to "wizards cast ranged magic and fighters cast spells to augment their bodies" you enter into the realm of making magic utterly mundane and it totally loses its cool factor. This really is not rocket science.

 

To move on to the lore, and how it doesnt make sense that just anybody can use magic: If such a world existed where magic was everywhere and anybody could cast spells, what purpose would there be of a wizard? The name would not exist, because anyone could use magic. Everything we did would be based on magic. Nobody would bother making swords, or weapons. Why would you need weapons if everyone can summon lightning bolts and fireballs? Furthermore, the concept of magic, whether you take it from tolkien, or wherever, is that it is generally rare. Whether the story dictates that only a select few are born with it, or that it requires immense study, or it is occult and guarded knowledge, magic is rarly spoken of as ubiquitous. These are concepts that have been passed down from story to story.

 

While its fine if the creators want to make a different story where magic is everwhere, but then change the class names. Or remove them entirely, as they no longer make any sense. I understand that the average gamer doesnt put much thought into these things, and could care less what they call their character. They just want to play and blow stuff up. But those of us who like to immerse ourselves in a world, need to have things make sense. That is all I am saying.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Darkprince048