Why cant I tell Xoti/Teheku that the gods are fake?

[CelticMutt]

2.) Even then I don't really feel like it makes sense that it happened the way it did & became as big of a deal as it was. I'll bring it up again, the gods seem to be perfectly able to have caused Iovara to spontaneously combust at any moment. If they were that worried about her message, why didn't they? I also kinda bring up my original point that IDK why the masses would believe her when they can see the direct influence of the gods in the world, or pray to them & apparently get a response in some cases.

 

 

 

No they couldn't - Iovara's crusade occurred before the gods existed.  Iovara and the Watcher were both non-Engwithian converts from the time that the Engwithians were still alive, and were part of the effort to force convert the world to the religion the Engwithians created.  Iovara created her crusade after she learned about the Engwithian plans to create the gods.  The ritual to create the gods didn't occur until after Thaos had stamped out all of the non-believers and "stabilized" the world.

[Seroster01]

Well, a point could be made that moons are Ondra's domain and she holds power upon them; the other gods don't necessarily hold sway over rocks, for example.

 

Galawain commands beasts, and in fact he sends a kraken against you if you tick him off.

 

Based on my understanding, the gods exist in the beyond (or are they in the in-between?) and manifesting in the physical realm is something they aren't keen on doing for a variety of reasons. Berath explicitly says that mortal vessels are usually inadequate for carrying the amount of essence that constitutes a god, and things tend to go awry when they try to possess one as Waidwen exemplified.

 

It seems to me like direct intervention by the Engwithan gods is therefore an edge-case last resort—something that cost them a lot and is not guaranteed to grant them the result they want. Indirect intervention via their domain, on the other hand, is something they can do. Ondra can pull moons and see the sea at storm; Galawain can send feral beasts after you; Magran can make volcanoes erupt; Hylea can command pigeons to ****e all over the statue you've just sculpted; and so on, and so forth.

 

 

As for the Leaden Key, IIRC the first game explicitly traces its origins to the last few Engwithans left behind after the creation of gods, with the purpose of acting like missionaries who bring word of the gods to other people. After all, what use are the newly created gods if nobody knows of them? Granted, from our perspective, the logical thing to do would have been to disband once word of the gods had reached all kith and all eretics had been vanquished—BUT people don't always do the most logical thing, or even see it for what it is. Besides, if the gods have such a hard time manifesting in the physical realm, they might as well leave the Leaden Key to handle their monkey business.

 

On the other hand, a case could be made for the fact that the gods exist and don't owe their power to kith's belief (contrary to, say, the D&D gods.) Even if kith stopped worshiping them, so what? They wouldn't lose their power and they wouldn't cease to exist. Whether or not kith know their secret is largely inconsequential to them, which I reckon is why they have no qualms helping you defeat Thaos the moment he acts against their own interest (no matter how hard he's kept their secret throughout the years.)

 

Yeah I'm aware of the reason the Leaden Key was founded, and ostensibly exists to the current day.  My general point was "They didn't really accomplish anything we're aware of that Thaos didn't do essentially by himself" (a case could be made for the folks sacrificing themselves to power the machines, but you don't need a world-spanning millennia-old secret society to find disposable pawns).

 

The last point is one certainly worth considering, and I'm inclined to believe the general gist of "We don't care too much whether you worship us or not".  My only real counter-argument to Kith knowing their secret is the line of reasoning that if Kith discovered the methods & mechanisms that were used to produce the gods they could damage or destroy the existing gods, or create new ones, etc.  POE2 ending gets into that business a bit from what I understand.

[Yria]

No they couldn't - Iovara's crusade occurred before the gods existed.  Iovara and the Watcher were both non-Engwithian converts from the time that the Engwithians were still alive, and were part of the effort to force convert the world to the religion the Engwithians created.  Iovara created her crusade after she learned about the Engwithian plans to create the gods.  The ritual to create the gods didn't occur until after Thaos had stamped out all of the non-believers and "stabilized" the world.

 

Where is this stated? I could see things happening this way, but it there any information in the game supporting this version of events? Iovara certainly doesn't say that she learned about "the plans", and it seems the gods were already there at the time of her death as her soul got stuck at the Court of the Penitents. 

[Seroster01]

 

2.) Even then I don't really feel like it makes sense that it happened the way it did & became as big of a deal as it was. I'll bring it up again, the gods seem to be perfectly able to have caused Iovara to spontaneously combust at any moment. If they were that worried about her message, why didn't they? I also kinda bring up my original point that IDK why the masses would believe her when they can see the direct influence of the gods in the world, or pray to them & apparently get a response in some cases.

 

 

 

No they couldn't - Iovara's crusade occurred before the gods existed.  Iovara and the Watcher were both non-Engwithian converts from the time that the Engwithians were still alive, and were part of the effort to force convert the world to the religion the Engwithians created.  Iovara created her crusade after she learned about the Engwithian plans to create the gods.  The ritual to create the gods didn't occur until after Thaos had stamped out all of the non-believers and "stabilized" the world.

 

 

Ah, then I significantly misunderstood the timeline then.  I thought the missionaries were a part of the small fraction of the "leftover" Engwithians "Spreading the news" after the gods were created.  We know there was some left over cause they were the reason Ondra tried to drop a moon on Dyrwood & Abadon kinda-sorta stopped her.

 

In any event, that goes back to my general point of "They factually & demonstrably exist now, so who's going to believe you when you say that the ancient ghost of an elf that only you have ever seen told you the gods were made up?"

Edited June 6, 2018 by Seroster01

[Verde]

Where do these Gods exist?

Edited June 6, 2018 by Verde

[Yria]

 Ah, then I significantly misunderstood the timeline then.  I thought the missionaries were a part of the small fraction of the "leftover" Engwithians "Spreading the news" after the gods were created.  

 

That's how I understood it too, so I'm very curious about where this information comes from. 

[CelticMutt]

 

No they couldn't - Iovara's crusade occurred before the gods existed.  Iovara and the Watcher were both non-Engwithian converts from the time that the Engwithians were still alive, and were part of the effort to force convert the world to the religion the Engwithians created.  Iovara created her crusade after she learned about the Engwithian plans to create the gods.  The ritual to create the gods didn't occur until after Thaos had stamped out all of the non-believers and "stabilized" the world.

 

Where is this stated? I could see things happening this way, but it there any information in the game supporting this version of events? Iovara certainly doesn't say that she learned about "the plans", and it seems the gods were already there at the time of her death as her soul got stuck at the Court of the Penitents. 

 

Everything from the flashbacks indicated that the Engwithians were still a functional, thriving civilization during the Iovara parts.  And as far as I know, Thaos was the only survivor of the Engwithians.

[wRAR]

From the wiki, Iovara quote: "with their mastery they crafted their own gods to fill the void, and sent missionaries to the corners of the world to spread their faith".

From the wiki too, without quoted sources: "utilizing a massive adra-powered machine at Sun in Shadow to harness the souls of thousands of Engwithans assembled in the chamber - men and women, children and the elderly, all they could find - spawning the known pantheon. Each of them was crafted from an ideal, to give the kith not one, but many meanings to choose from in life. The surviving Engwithans then sent missionaries to the corners of the world to spread their faith."

[Seroster01]

Where do these Gods exist?

 

Not sure I understand the question?  If you mean "Where do they physically exist" then we get into those existential "Everywhere & nowhere".  As far as I understand it, they seem to primarily exist in the "in-between", which seems to be something like the "spiritual space" between the physical world of Eora & a place/dimension that I can't remember the name of that is the original source of essence/souls.  Souls pass from Eora->In-Between->Source->reincarnated into Eora in my understanding of the cosmology, and while passing through the in-between the gods siphon a portion of every soul to "recharge their batteries" basically.

 

Functionally, from what we see in-game & experience for ourselves in POE1, Gods seem to be able to see/hear/know just about anything they want to in the Physical plane of Eora.  They don't seem to be interested in doing much about it, but they always seem to know more than you do about what's going on when you interact with them in the first game.

[CelticMutt]

Yeah, looks like I misunderstood the order of events then.

Edited June 6, 2018 by CelticMutt

[Seroster01]

 

 

No they couldn't - Iovara's crusade occurred before the gods existed.  Iovara and the Watcher were both non-Engwithian converts from the time that the Engwithians were still alive, and were part of the effort to force convert the world to the religion the Engwithians created.  Iovara created her crusade after she learned about the Engwithian plans to create the gods.  The ritual to create the gods didn't occur until after Thaos had stamped out all of the non-believers and "stabilized" the world.

 

Where is this stated? I could see things happening this way, but it there any information in the game supporting this version of events? Iovara certainly doesn't say that she learned about "the plans", and it seems the gods were already there at the time of her death as her soul got stuck at the Court of the Penitents. 

 

Everything from the flashbacks indicated that the Engwithians were still a functional, thriving civilization during the Iovara parts.  And as far as I know, Thaos was the only survivor of the Engwithians.

 

 

We know from the WM expansions that there were enough Engwithians left over after the gods were created for Ondra to feel like it was worth dropping a moon on ancient Dyrwood to prevent the secret from being revealed later.  They eventually let themselves die off on purpose according to the wiki, but there was definitely a significant population left over after the initial creation.

[wRAR]

Also from the wiki: "The last remaining Engwithans decided to protect the gods' secret by engineering a migration of folk, elves, and orlans from the North to present-day Eir Glanfath around 1350 AI. In return for the right to settle the derelict city around Teir Evron, the Engwithans (or Builders) demanded that Glanfathans protect the remnants of Engwith from foreign trespassers and never enter them themselves - save for the territory around Teir Evron." (so after the Abydon incident and less than 1000 years before present day).

[Fluffle]

The watcher has been told first hand what happens to people that tell other people that their gods are fake.

I don't think the watcher is keen on putting a target on their back and become another Iovara.
I also think that for us it would have been boring to replay Iovaras's story just with the watcher in her footsteps.

And here comes the thing about "proving" that Gods aren't real (independent from what "real" or "fake" means):
Belief trumps evidence. Always. That's the thing about belief. Your own god could appear in front of you and tell you that he is fake.
You think that could stop a religious person?

I would guess they'd see it as some kind of test of their belief. They would think their god is testing them. And probably that would strengthen their belief.

If you try to prove a god is not real you would have to find some kind of proof that is valid from a true believer's point of view, not just your point of view! But the very definition of being religious is, that a true believer would never accept anything that would decry their religion and shatter their belief.

People believe what they want to believe. And people need to believe. And some people would rather kill someone who'd try to make them second guess their belief than to actually start doing just that.
 

[thelee]

My thoughts on some questions raised in this thread:

 

1. Why don't more people care about the gods not being real in Deadfire?

 

Apart from Xoti/Teheru (which I also found a bit incongruous that I could never tell them about the nature of the gods), it just doesn't seem a relevant topic as part of the Deadfire conflict. A gigantic titan is threatening to upend anything, does it really matter if he is a real divine being or something manufactured by an ancient civilization?

 

2. Why does the Leaden Key need to exist if people don't care?

 

I think that people "not caring" is mostly a temporary phenomenon of there being a gigantic titan crashing through their country. Animancy is still around, and its research still threatens the underpinnings of religious belief and the gods and is the largest present-day threat to the Leaden Key's mission. The Leaden Key is also an arm of Woedica's power, and so even aside from animancy it would still exist to expand Woedica's power. (though, see footnote)

 

3. On what gods can or can't do

 

Clearly, in the past gods could do a lot (but maybe not at first when they were first getting started re: iovara), but in-game dialogue in poe1 implies that the gods werent happy with their meddling. so it's not that they can't do stuff, it's that they have a gentleman's agreement not to, even as it concerns woedica and thaos. Eothas is a whole other thing, as both times he was seeking to undermine the very foundation of their power, not to mention he breaks the gentleman's agreement first both times (by embodiying waidwen and then by embodying a titan), so all bets go off so as to stop eothas.

 

Footnote/new question: one thing that confuses me is that in poe1 lore, woedica is this absent god (even her in-game book talks about lookin forward to the day when she rules again); in fact in her abscence skaen is her representative at the very end of poe1. Part of Thaos's mission was to restore woedica. Patently, he fails. Unless you also choose to empower woedica in poe1, it is mysterious to me why in deadfire she is suddenly popping up everywhere.

Edited June 6, 2018 by thelee

[Verde]

Maybe this has already been said, but the thought of your diety being created and comprised of imperfect kith would be the dealbreaker for the masses. Not that they are "fake" as they walk like a duck talk like a duck etc, but they are in fact susceptible to the same flaws.

[cjmead5@yahoo.com]

I love this thread. 

We are the main character of this game: we are supposed to be changing the world.

Heck the choice to destroy the wheel or stop Eothas from destroying it IS changing the world very fundamentally.

 

WORSE the fact that the wheel was built to support the function of these amalgam constructs/Engwithians and that society existed for quite some time without them and without hollow born or soul maladies makes for a HUGE point of concern about whether they should be kept or destroyed.

 

Then there is Rekke who I picked up floating in the middle of the ocean NE of shipwreck reef. Once he learns enough Adeyran the plot really thickens: he can read the mysterious tablets you find here and there, claims to have been part of a missionary expedition to head west and make it past the storms (cause no one's ever been there), and spread the word of their God. Big "G" singular god. No multiple gods. Meaning The Engwithian God experiment may not have been planet wide and the "gods" have cut the area of Eora off from the rest of the world. 

This has profound ramifications. Destroying the Wheel could be breaking the cage that all of the areas in PoE 1, 2, & beyond are kept in.

So yes, not being able to discuss all this with your main companions isn't bad writing; it is criminal writing.

 

I sense a lack of Chris Avallone here. It becomes apparent how much he may have actually been bringing to the table in storytelling and holding the other writers/producers accountable.

[Tarlonniel]

As far as I understand it, they seem to primarily exist in the "in-between", which seems to be something like the "spiritual space" between the physical world of Eora & a place/dimension that I can't remember the name of that is the original source of essence/souls.

According to the in-game codex, the gods exist in the Beyond, not the In-Between; in fact, IIRC, they can't see into and have no influence over the In-Between, which is weird. But interesting.

[Celan]

Aloth mentions the gods being Engwithan creations during his quest. I think they know, they either just don't think it matters or don't believe it.

[Tarlonniel]

I would have liked to bring it up just once. Even if their reaction was the same as Governor Clario's when you tell him the statue is Eothas - "Uh, yeah Watcher, sure" - at least the option would exist.

[thelee]

So yes, not being able to discuss all this with your main companions isn't bad writing; it is criminal writing.

 

I sense a lack of Chris Avallone here. It becomes apparent how much he may have actually been bringing to the table in storytelling and holding the other writers/producers accountable.

 

on JE Sawyer's blog, he makes it sounds like they have all sorts of docs written down about Eora and how everything works; likely this is the sort of stuff that Chris would have been a part of.

 

We only get a fraction of it, and JE Sawyer recently apologized on his blog about one specific confusion because the original cut of Deadfire had an explanation, but they had cut it because at the time they didn't think it was necessary, and all of them had been so immersed in the lore that they thought it was self-evident.

 

So I wouldn't blame a lack of Chris Avellone here because I would gather a lot has already been written down and just not revealed to us in game or in novellas. I would blame some hasty editorial choices at most.

[Yria]

By the way, do we ever tell anyone why Eothas wants to destroy the Wheel (to stop the gods from feeding off mortals' souls, among other things)? I might be wrong, but the way I remember it, all we say after the Ashen Maw is "Eothas is going to Ukaizo, he is going to destroy the Wheel". And nobody cares to ask how or why.

 

Also, gods or no gods, the new companions certainly know about Thaos. They bring him up in the party banter a couple of times. But, apparently, they have no idea what Thaos' whole business was about.

[Elerond]

By the way, do we ever tell anyone why Eothas wants to destroy the Wheel (to stop the gods from feeding off mortals' souls, among other things)? I might be wrong, but the way I remember it, all we say after the Ashen Maw is "Eothas is going to Ukaizo, he is going to destroy the Wheel". And nobody cares to ask how or why.

 

Also, gods or no gods, the new companions certainly know about Thaos. They bring him up in the party banter a couple of times. But, apparently, they have no idea what Thaos' whole business was about.

 

Eothas wants to reveal truth of gods and wheel to kith in way that is undeniable and push kith towards peace and new innovations (althought you can persuade him to go against this goal). Eothas has firm belief that kith are capable to solve any problem caused by destruction of the wheel and he also seems to believe that it would unite waring kith nations behind common goal, belief that seem to be bit too optimistic at least based on fact that factions are much more interested to take over the power of Ukaizo, than caring Eothas destroying wheel, what it would mean or why he is doing so and ending slides also will confirm that factions will continue their war in Deadfire even after Eothas destroys the wheel, although in some cases one of the factions at least tries to do something to solve the issues caused by destruction of the wheel.

Edited June 7, 2018 by Elerond

[Katarack21]

Eothas is far to trusting in the good nature of Kith. If he thought about it, he'd realize that the "gods" and the Kith reflect one another.

[FecklessFool]

 

So yes, not being able to discuss all this with your main companions isn't bad writing; it is criminal writing.

 

I sense a lack of Chris Avallone here. It becomes apparent how much he may have actually been bringing to the table in storytelling and holding the other writers/producers accountable.

 

on JE Sawyer's blog, he makes it sounds like they have all sorts of docs written down about Eora and how everything works; likely this is the sort of stuff that Chris would have been a part of.

 

We only get a fraction of it, and JE Sawyer recently apologized on his blog about one specific confusion because the original cut of Deadfire had an explanation, but they had cut it because at the time they didn't think it was necessary, and all of them had been so immersed in the lore that they thought it was self-evident.

 

So I wouldn't blame a lack of Chris Avellone here because I would gather a lot has already been written down and just not revealed to us in game or in novellas. I would blame some hasty editorial choices at most.

 

 

So why not patch said content in?

 

To me this sounds like 'the dog ate my homework'. Why would you cut something from a main quest line that already has very sparse dialog? 

[thelee]

 

 

So yes, not being able to discuss all this with your main companions isn't bad writing; it is criminal writing.

 

I sense a lack of Chris Avallone here. It becomes apparent how much he may have actually been bringing to the table in storytelling and holding the other writers/producers accountable.

 

on JE Sawyer's blog, he makes it sounds like they have all sorts of docs written down about Eora and how everything works; likely this is the sort of stuff that Chris would have been a part of.

 

We only get a fraction of it, and JE Sawyer recently apologized on his blog about one specific confusion because the original cut of Deadfire had an explanation, but they had cut it because at the time they didn't think it was necessary, and all of them had been so immersed in the lore that they thought it was self-evident.

 

So I wouldn't blame a lack of Chris Avellone here because I would gather a lot has already been written down and just not revealed to us in game or in novellas. I would blame some hasty editorial choices at most.

 

 

So why not patch said content in?

 

To me this sounds like 'the dog ate my homework'. Why would you cut something from a main quest line that already has very sparse dialog? 

 

 

JE Sawyer said that they would try to bring it back in through in-game means (possibly DLC?) https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

Edited June 7, 2018 by thelee