Monk patch 1.1

[Soulmojo]

Hello,

 

I compiled a small list of changes to the monk in 1.1.

I'm sure I missed something, if I did, make a comment about it and I include that into the list.

The second part is my...list of complaints I think the monk still needs, handle that with precaution. I didn't wrote that to make a divine statement, I just believe those are necessary.

 

• Swift strikes - was granting 20% attack speed bonus, now granting 15%  
• Lightning strikes upgrade - This ability was nerfed from 30% lightning bonus to 15% lightning damage

A nerft was surely coming for lightning strikes, I think they went a little too much. The damage should have been adjusted to 20% instead of 15%.

The swift strikes nerf I didn't see coming, though I guess they wanted to tone down dual wield speed and casting speeds.

 

• Dual wield passive - this was nerfed from 20% to 15% possibly for attack speed purposes.

I don't like this specifically, but ok, whatever...

 

• Turning wheel upgrade - this was granting 5% per wound stacking up to 50% damage, it was changed to 2% per wound for a total of 20% damage bonus

This nerf was something like a sure thing, you might agree, you might not, I think this is within a margin of acceptance. A 3% per wound would be better.

 

• Inner death - this tier 9 ability was granting 500% critical damage on crit it. Now it is providing 300% damage on crit.

I think this ok, though if you empower this ability, it is still potentially one shot most stuff. 

 

 

• Shattered pillar - you still gain wound from damage dealt, but there is a line there which states "not including abilities"

I don't know what this means precisely as I didn't tested this but most likely means you can only gain wound from auto attack. 

 

 

What should be changed in my opinion:

 

Duality of mortal presence

 

There are two key point I would like to discuss here, which I can guarantee you will not like or more likely hate, but it is necessary. To discuss and change.

 

•  Intellect bonus - This intellect bonus you can stack up to 10, granting +50% duration on everything and 100% area effect bonus.

This is damaging to character, and multiclass balance. It makes any caster mulitclass super powerful, resulting very large area effect spells and very long spell durations. Other than that it makes any monk and multiclass stun, caused affliction last very very long. Not only that, but the stacked intellect overlaps with clarity of agony upgrade, making it semi useless, plus the constitution bonus + iron wheel armor bonus also becomes sub optimal compared to this. I'm sorry but this is a fact.

 

Now I thought about this a lot  since I made a comment about this issue, and the conclusion is the change the intellect to perception.

Monk does not have a perception bonus, but many of monks ability focuses on making a hit, and doing crits. This would help shattered pillars for instance to dish out the necessary damage, and would help all the others subclasses too making it more likely to activate abilities through crit. Plus it removes the clear imbalance this high intellect bonus provides.

 

The only issue here after the change is swift strikes, specifically its duration. I commented - complained - about the ability duration numerous times now. I was shot down then, because with high enough intellect - duality int bonus hello - it clearly have long enough duration. And I don't like this. I firmly believe that an ability should be able to last long enough if you semi focus on intellect or not at all.  So theoretically if youi change intellect bonus to perception with duality, then a 15 sec duration this ability needs, which balances the +50% duration of intellect bonus from duality.

 

• Upgrades - duality of mortal presence has two upgrades from which you can select one.

My issue with this is that you cannot choose both. Normally I wouldn't raise an issue about upgrades, because an ability has one effect and you upgrade that one effect one way or another if you could choose both then it becomes overpowered. With duality, you have TWO effect, and you can upgrade one of those two effect, making either one or the other bonus even more sub par. Duality of mortal presence should be about a choice. Body and mind depending on the situation, but due to able to choose one upgrade, it is not a choice at all. You choose an upgrade for which bonus you are more likely use, and stick with that stance till the rest of the game. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Climhazzard]

I hadn't noticed that change of description on shattered pillar, before 1.1 they could get wounds off all their abilities.

[Soulmojo]

I hadn't noticed that change of description on shattered pillar, before 1.1 they could get wounds off all their abilities.

 

If you start a new character with shattered pillar sub, one of the passives it receives from the start includes this info. (They hid it well )

Not sure I wrote down the exact line accurately, but it is there.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Climhazzard]

Also I just checked to make sure but you can get both upgrades for duality of mortal presence.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Climhazzard

[Soulmojo]

Also I just checked to make sure but you can get both upgrades for turning wheel.

 

Can you? My last xp was that you can choose only one. Thank you, good catch.

[baldurs_gate_2]

Why people can not just accept, that there are OP builds or abilities? It's boring and tedious, if every fight needs a own strategy and it takes ages to deal with enemies. I know that from divinity original sin, were until mid - late game every fight took very long.

[Soulmojo]

Why people can not just accept, that there are OP builds or abilities? It's boring and tedious, if every fight needs a own strategy and it takes ages to deal with enemies. I know that from divinity original sin, were until mid - late game every fight took very long.

 

What is your problem exactly and with what?

[Climhazzard]

I personally don't think it's OP at all, I like both upgrade options and I'm cool with the attribute bonuses being intellect and constitution.

[baldurs_gate_2]

 

Why people can not just accept, that there are OP builds or abilities? It's boring and tedious, if every fight needs a own strategy and it takes ages to deal with enemies. I know that from divinity original sin, were until mid - late game every fight took very long.

 

What is your problem exactly and with what?

 

Turning Wheel should stay as it is now. It's really nice that your abilities last longer and you don't have to recast them all the time, like when you play a berserker and lose 5 INT all the time.

[Soulmojo]

Well a 12+ sec stunning blow and a 8+ sec aoe stun from torments reach - which you can repeat - is something I consider OP. 

Whispers of treason (charm) with a free +50% duration is I Consider op.

Chanter invocations with free +50% duration + 100% aoe is a bit op.

etc.

 

Again take it with a grain of salt what I write about what is OP or not, it's just every way I look at it it feels like something which is vastly outperforms every other bonus.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Soulmojo]

 

 

Why people can not just accept, that there are OP builds or abilities? It's boring and tedious, if every fight needs a own strategy and it takes ages to deal with enemies. I know that from divinity original sin, were until mid - late game every fight took very long.

 

What is your problem exactly and with what?

 

Turning Wheel should stay as it is now. It's really nice that your abilities last longer and you don't have to recast them all the time, like when you play a berserker and lose 5 INT all the time.

 

 

I know it sounds nice, but the player should be able to negate the penalty the most, not flip it entirely. There is no other ability in the game that allows you to do that. That is my problem with intellect bonus of duality.

I'm not saying it should be capped at half value, I'm saying this causes balance issues.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Madscientist]

You said shattered pillars do not gain wounds from abilities:

Does this only work for monk abilities or for all abilities, like using crippling strike with a monk/rogue?

So no more spaming torments reach to perma stunn everything in front of you?

[Soulmojo]

You said shattered pillars do not gain wounds from abilities:

Does this only work for monk abilities or for all abilities, like using crippling strike with a monk/rogue?

So no more spaming torments reach to perma stunn everything in front of you?

 

I don't know yet. As I said I wasn't able to test it. I catched the description this morning, but I had to go off to work.

I will be able to tell more once I got home. 

In my opinion though yes, you wont be able to spam stun lock torments reach. 

[L4wlight]

From my limited testing, it seems Shattered Pillars only gain wounds from auto-attacks indeed.

 

Something I'm not so sure about: It feels like the chance for Swift Flurry and Heartbeat Drumming to proc from melee-abilities (not auto-attacks) is either 0% or very low. Not sure though. Just a feeling.

[knownastherat]

@Soulmojo: So do I understand it correctly that you did not, extensively, test it, yet propose "necessary" changes and debate? 

Edited June 4, 2018 by knownastherat

[Phyriel]

 

 

 

Why people can not just accept, that there are OP builds or abilities? It's boring and tedious, if every fight needs a own strategy and it takes ages to deal with enemies. I know that from divinity original sin, were until mid - late game every fight took very long.

 

What is your problem exactly and with what?

 

Turning Wheel should stay as it is now. It's really nice that your abilities last longer and you don't have to recast them all the time, like when you play a berserker and lose 5 INT all the time.

 

 

I know it sounds nice, but the player should be able to negate the penalty the most, not flip it entirely. There is no other ability in the game that allows you to do that. That is my problem with intellect bonus of duality.

I'm not saying it should be capped at half value, I'm saying this causes balance issues.

 

 

I personally don't want BALANCE per se in this game. It's important to have "bad" choices before you to have any learning curve, if everything you pick is good and/or synergize with something else then your choices become meaningless and boil down to picking "flavor of the month" or better animation ;p 

 

Ofc having imbalanced abilities/items in the game introduce a problem in form that once you learn to build char utilizing strongest possible variants of abilities and items you need content keeping that in check otherwise you end up facerolling everything. 

 

That being said I'd rather have Obsidian attention shifted from nerfing/buffing/nerfing and rebuffing abilities over and over but instead designing encounters that provide some kind of challenge no matter what. You build unhittable tank with over 200 deflection? Well you probably have sad damage output so maybe introduce enemies with crazy hp regen that challenge you in attrition fight. I already like how Nalpazcas can get entirely shut down by arcane dampeners and you really have to go out of your way to solve fights that have 3-4 mages casting those. This game need more of that kind of things. 

[dunehunter]

If there are 100 abilities and 10 is OP, should they nerf the 10 or uptune the 90? Same as deflection, shall they nerf the 200 deflection tank or buff all enemy?

[Phyriel]

Its not a matter of answering those exact questions, I like to think about it with Nalpazcas as an example - they can ramp soooo much stats, % damage etc from drugs and pots that once you see it all stacked you have to instantly think "ok this drug needs nerf, this pot needs nerf, this synergy also needs nerf" but instead you can just let them be and spawn more arcane dampeners around the world... bam tactical approach introduced without chasing your own tail with endless balancing patches. 

 

Easier said than done obviously but I dunno if pursuing balance is any good in game like that. With so called balance you'll end up doing same, most efficient **** every fight. With hard counters that completely shut down your regular playstyle you have to think out of the box. Use more tools that you normally skip, be it figurines or kiting but it adds some color to otherwise pretty bland approaches. I mean once the game is "balanced" it just a matter of figuring new set of numbers to get to be OP in that environment again. Don't tell me its not because I played poe 1 yesterday and its exactly that (despite being considered balanced by many). 

 

I'd leave bad abilties around, let people pick them and regret it, if not for anything else than making them respec and be like "holy **** this choice is 5times better". It's still gaming experience. All said and done tho single player game is finite experience, once you learn how to synergize your choices of abilities and items you're supposed to be somewhat OP as a reward no?

Edited June 4, 2018 by Phyriel

[dunehunter]

You think about only one class, I think them in all. Of course they can design the encounter to match the power of one OP class, but a perfect encounter that can make every OP combo still challenging? Doubt it.

[Phyriel]

I gave example of Nalpazcas because that's the only class I know is currently op in general terms but also hard countered at times. Maybe you're right but I still question people who work hard to make themselves invulnerable by stacking over 200 deflection and defenses and then complain that they are invulnerable, they worked hard to get to that state so they got what they wanted. I know its sad argument telling people "don't make yourself op" but at the same time if you balance it all you won't really introduce any tactical depth to game that simply just wasn't designed to have any... 

[Lokithecat]

•  Intellect bonus - This intellect bonus you can stack up to 10, granting +50% duration on everything and 100% area effect bonus.

This is damaging to character, and multiclass balance. It makes any caster mulitclass super powerful, resulting very large area effect spells and very long spell durations. Other than that it makes any monk and multiclass stun, caused affliction last very very long. Not only that, but the stacked intellect overlaps with clarity of agony upgrade, making it semi useless, plus the constitution bonus + iron wheel armor bonus also becomes sub optimal compared to this. I'm sorry but this is a fact.

 

Now I thought about this a lot  since I made a comment about this issue, and the conclusion is the change the intellect to perception.

Monk does not have a perception bonus, but many of monks ability focuses on making a hit, and doing crits. This would help shattered pillars for instance to dish out the necessary damage, and would help all the others subclasses too making it more likely to activate abilities through crit. Plus it removes the clear imbalance this high intellect bonus provides.

 

The only issue here after the change is swift strikes, specifically its duration. I commented - complained - about the ability duration numerous times now. I was shot down then, because with high enough intellect - duality int bonus hello - it clearly have long enough duration. And I don't like this. I firmly believe that an ability should be able to last long enough if you semi focus on intellect or not at all.  So theoretically if youi change intellect bonus to perception with duality, then a 15 sec duration this ability needs, which balances the +50% duration of intellect bonus from duality.

 

This really makes no sense at all.  The number of classes that can really use the Int bonus for becoming 'Super powerful' is pretty small.  Sure, a charm, or debuff that lasts longer is handy, area spells can usually target everyone anyway, but extra 'space' is always handy...  either way, certainly not 'Super powerful'.  If it was switched to Perception, then everyone and their dog would be using this (and probably helwalker), 10 Perception, 10% better chance to land effects, crit, etc...  that is going to be useful for 95% of the builds out there.  It would be much more of an 'imbalance' to add 10 Perception to x multiclass, than 10 Int is currently.

 

As for the 'stacked intellect overlapping with Clarity of Agony upgrade making it semi useless' I'm not sure what you're talking about at all.  They stack, so if you are building a character interested in duration (which you think is super powerful) then another 5 Int is great.  Its also a Counter to Int Afflictions.  With all this (+15 Int, +150% duration) the idea that you think Swift Strikes needs an upgrade to duration is just confusing.

 

Swift Strikes duration is fine, especially if you're following the trend of low Str high Int build on Monks, while maybe you can't get away with the entire fight on 1 shot of it, you're getting way more duration out of it than, say, a fighter and Barrage, or a poor brain dead Barbarian Frenzying.

[L4wlight]

As for the 'stacked intellect overlapping with Clarity of Agony upgrade making it semi useless' I'm not sure what you're talking about at all.  They stack, so if you are building a character interested in duration (which you think is super powerful) then another 5 Int is great. 

They do not stack at all.

[Soulmojo]

Swift Strikes duration is fine, especially if you're following the trend of low Str high Int build on Monks, while maybe you can't get away with the entire fight on 1 shot of it, you're getting way more duration out of it than, say, a fighter and Barrage, or a poor brain dead Barbarian Frenzying.

 

 

The swift strikes proposition (15sec) I made in connection of dualities INT bonus swap to PER. 

 

@Soulmojo: So do I understand it correctly that you did not, extensively, test it, yet propose "necessary" changes and debate? 

 

 

I did test it. I did the closed beta too. I gave up playing the game  for some time now because of balances issues and the clear necessity of an overhaul patch. The game was so blatantly easy I didn't wanted that to spoil the entire game and story for me. Monk was especially overpowered with turning wheel + lighning strikes, the +10 int bonus and infinite stun + what I've read about the tier 9 abilites. 

 

On dualities INT side I'm 100% firm. That needs a change. 

[knownastherat]

I see, thanks.

 

Since I was not playing Monk past few first levels I cannot comment on what is necessary and whatnot, however, I am building Sage (Nalpazca/Wizard) and I plan to use the duality to its full potential. If it was changed as you suggest from INT bonus to PER I would probably adjust build/playstyle to Crit. Would need to test it tho before seeing which one performs better. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by knownastherat

[Braven]

I actually use duality mostly for the Con bonus. I find fortitude to be the hardest defense to ramp up. Will/reflex are easy to get to high levels.

 

Remember, +10 stat increases are also +20 to a defense. Helwalker can get +40 fortitude that stacks with everything on demand. This makes them a very strong multi class for a tank. None of thier tanking related skills were nerfed at all, unlike paladin, in 1.1.

 

I think Per instead of Int would actually be better for monk/wizard, unless they only ever cast buff spells (granted, a very valid option since wizard has great buff spells). The biggest danger of debuff spells is having them miss so accuracy is more important than duration. Consistancy is better than max potential since your “average” performance should be enough to win, at least if you don’t want to die whenever you have a streak of low dice rolls, so reducing your “bad luck” is paramount. Since you are very limited on the number of casts, you just can’t afford misses. With melee, you will swing several times so some low rolls don’t really matter; you just attack again. Miss both casts of a spell you rely on and you are doomed.

 

INT is really good for AOE buff spells, or anything without an accuracy roll and helps priest and druid a lot; particularly healing over time ones of which druid has several. Those benefit a ton from both might and int making helwalker a perfect multi-class. Perception would nerf that, but the extra might is still nice. I think most of the healing spells were nerfed somewhat with 1.1.

 

No matter what stats you gain from duality, a multiclass combination will benefit a great deal from it. Only way around it is to nerf it to like max +5 max. But I think monk has seen enough nerfs.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Braven