2H swords useless in PoTD after patch?

[dunehunter]

PoTD enemies got +2 armors in the newest patch, I wonder if 2h sword is still usable by any classes except Devoted/Berserkers? 

[Ciphys]

Pretty much, but they have been underperforming since release. Two major parts I just do not get is:
 

1. Why does two handed weapons not have higher penetration across the board? Just the sheer weight of a greatsword swing can crack ribs and cause concussions. Don't even need to cut. So why is as effective as slashing at armor with a normal sized sword? 
2. Why are weapons with two damage types penalized with lower penetration in general. Is that not supposed to be their niche? Why are they penalized for their "unique traits" in comparison to other "pure" weapons with bonuses and a higher base pen?

So ya, the 2+ armor to enemies in addition to the nerf to the helmet that reduces 2h weapon recovery just has me making question marks all over it. 

[AeonsLegend]

In terms of weapon types and the way the game works I feel that any weapon that amplifies force should have some sort of sundering stat that allows you to deal more damage to a target. If you want to use armor piercing for this, then go ahead. In POEI, two handed weapons were far weaker than single handed weapons in terms of dps. This makes no sense. I also want to combine this with an earlier post I made about deflection. A single handed or hand and a half sword should be more effective in actual combat due to the fact that you can parry or deflect attacks with it. A two handed weapon is far to big and cumbersome for this, but it should be the only weapon capable of dealing with heavily armored enemies effectively, because they are slow and made to absorb damage rather than deflect and counter. 

 

The lack of this mechanic in this game makes for poor implementation and differentiation between weapons.

 

In POE (and other games) they want all weapons and abilties to be similarly effective in every situation. I think that is a base mistake.

Edited June 3, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Pretty much, but they have been underperforming since release. Two major parts I just do not get is:

 

1. Why does two handed weapons not have higher penetration across the board? Just the sheer weight of a greatsword swing can crack ribs and cause concussions. Don't even need to cut. So why is as effective as slashing at armor with a normal sized sword? 

2. Why are weapons with two damage types penalized with lower penetration in general. Is that not supposed to be their niche? Why are they penalized for their "unique traits" in comparison to other "pure" weapons with bonuses and a higher base pen?

So ya, the 2+ armor to enemies in addition to the nerf to the helmet that reduces 2h weapon recovery just has me making question marks all over it.

 

I've been arguing the first point since beta, along with fast 1h weapons having 1 lower pen. Agree with the second point, versatile damage shouldn't come with a penalty.

[Lokithecat]

1. Why does two handed weapons not have higher penetration across the board? Just the sheer weight of a greatsword swing can crack ribs and cause concussions. Don't even need to cut. So why is as effective as slashing at armor with a normal sized sword? 

2. Why are weapons with two damage types penalized with lower penetration in general. Is that not supposed to be their niche? Why are they penalized for their "unique traits" in comparison to other "pure" weapons with bonuses and a higher base pen?

 

1.  2h Should deal substantially more damage than a 1h to represent this, not ignore more armor.  Otherwise, on a creature without armor, there would be no benefit to a 2h.  At least on paper a 2h that hits for 20 to 25, 5 Pen compared to a 1h that hits for 10 to 15, 5 Pen...   or something.  Balancing where those numbers fall seems like a giant mess, especially when trying to add in 'full attack' or not on abilities.  Although I could see an argument for making the damage equal, and massively jacking up the 2h Penetration, making overpenetration (+50%? damage) almost a certainty....

 

2.  The 'theory' is supposed to be that you really do well when you come across an armor that has a significant weakness vs. one of the types of damage... if x armor had a 40% weakness to x, you do 40% more damage, which should result in more damage going through after their armor is dealt with, even if the base is a couple points lower. 

 

In general though, it really feels like a lot of the damage numbers, are set up to be balanced under 'best case' scenarios... like the 2h version of the Whispers sword, does less base damage than the 1h version... which is just silly, no matter how you try to explain it.  Although if you get 5 creatures all piled around the 2h version, and you hit them all every swing, you'll do a lot more damage overall...

 

There is also Raw Damage, which ignores all the armor... but can't benefit from overpenetrating for bonus damage... or under for penaltys... so balanced?

 

The system seems logical... just a matter of getting values worked out... and then tuning them for difficultys.

[QuiteGoneJin]

Full attacks should do a bonus 25% dmg with two handers, or maybe 15% if that is too much. 

[Climhazzard]

Weapons basically fall into penetration and speed categories with a bonus for each weapon category.  High penetration/dual damage type like scepter or warhammer have a lower base damage.  Low penetration/dual damage type have good base damage.  Low penetration/single damage type have the best base damage.

 

Imo the problem with two handed weapons isn't their penetration.  It's full attacks, which favor dual wielding, and their recovery time, which make the character far less reactive than characters dual wielding.  I was rather hoping to see many or most 1 resource full attacks nerfed to primary attacks for the sake of 2 handers (I'm sure much crying would ensue), but that hasn't happened.  Perhaps obsidian actually think 2 handers are good right now, maybe they have other ideas and they just didn't implement them.  Incidentally making full attacks into primary attacks would also buff single wielding and dual wielding a single ranged with a single melee.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Climhazzard

[QuiteGoneJin]

The thing that Boeroer pointed out that WotEP can apply afflictions in a large cone makes a Street fighter (or any rogue)/Mage sound really fun. 

[AeonsLegend]

Full attacks should do a bonus 25% dmg with two handers, or maybe 15% if that is too much. 

Two weapons give 100% weapon damage bonus and you want only 25% for two handed? It should be at least 100% damage bonus for these full attack skills to be close to useful damage wise.

[Ensign]

1.1 patch is mostly about nerfing all the really high points, which it has done well (with a bit of head-scratching collateral damage). Two-handed weapons, as mentioned above, mostly suffer due to the power of dual attacks in high recovery world. They basically need a damage buff across the board, as they should out-perform dual wield consistently when you aren't mashing on dual attacks.

 

I would bet on it taking another patch cycle or two for that to happen. For now two handers just aren't very good; they relied on a couple broken ones pre-1.1 and without them there just isn't an upside.

[Effusion]

Imo the problem with two handed weapons isn't their penetration.  It's full attacks, which favor dual wielding, and their recovery time, which make the character far less reactive than characters dual wielding.  I was rather hoping to see many or most 1 resource full attacks nerfed to primary attacks for the sake of 2 handers (I'm sure much crying would ensue), but that hasn't happened.  Perhaps obsidian actually think 2 handers are good right now, maybe they have other ideas and they just didn't implement them.  Incidentally making full attacks into primary attacks would also buff single wielding and dual wielding a single ranged with a single melee.

Would that not just shift the problem from favoring dual wielding to favoring 2h weapons, or reduce the number of 'optimal' attacks for damage builds? I think it would make more sense to have full attacks do reduced damage while dual wielding but still hit twice, or have 2h/single weapons do extra damage on full attacks.

[AeonsLegend]

1.1 patch is mostly about nerfing all the really high points, which it has done well (with a bit of head-scratching collateral damage). Two-handed weapons, as mentioned above, mostly suffer due to the power of dual attacks in high recovery world. They basically need a damage buff across the board, as they should out-perform dual wield consistently when you aren't mashing on dual attacks.

 

I would bet on it taking another patch cycle or two for that to happen. For now two handers just aren't very good; they relied on a couple broken ones pre-1.1 and without them there just isn't an upside.

As painful as it might be to imagine this I would rather suffer a hit from two weapons being dual wielded than a hit by a two handed weapon in real life. It just feels like two handed should deal so much more pain...

[Climhazzard]

 

Imo the problem with two handed weapons isn't their penetration.  It's full attacks, which favor dual wielding, and their recovery time, which make the character far less reactive than characters dual wielding.  I was rather hoping to see many or most 1 resource full attacks nerfed to primary attacks for the sake of 2 handers (I'm sure much crying would ensue), but that hasn't happened.  Perhaps obsidian actually think 2 handers are good right now, maybe they have other ideas and they just didn't implement them.  Incidentally making full attacks into primary attacks would also buff single wielding and dual wielding a single ranged with a single melee.

Would that not just shift the problem from favoring dual wielding to favoring 2h weapons, or reduce the number of 'optimal' attacks for damage builds? I think it would make more sense to have full attacks do reduced damage while dual wielding but still hit twice, or have 2h/single weapons do extra damage on full attacks.

 

 

Perhaps, I'm no balancing expert.  I think dual wielding would still have a big advantage in reactivity from low recovery, plus it'd still have better auto attack damage and be better with on hit effects.

Edited June 3, 2018 by Climhazzard

[Voltron]

That is why I buffed all 2h in my game files and they have now +2 Penetration.

Obsidian balanced PotD but didn't calculate at all consequences for different things, like for example 2h weapons or fighter changes in general.

[dunehunter]

We all know 2h weapons are bad in general, needless to say. I open the thread because due to new +2 armor in PoTD, 2h sword becomes even less appealing to many classes. Only a Devoted or berserker can make it perform normally.

[Climhazzard]

We all know 2h weapons are bad in general, needless to say. I open the thread because due to new +2 armor in PoTD, 2h sword becomes even less appealing to many classes. Only a Devoted or berserker can make it perform normally.

 

From the armor values I'm seeing I honestly think you want to multi class to something with thunderous blows if you go Devoted.  So brawler or brute to really put a weapon to good use.

[Nemesis7884]

2h were underwhelming before unless you specifically built around it like with certain items usch as WofteP or the chromoprismatic staff etc.... and now they are baiscially just pointless... they are probably afraid that stealth kills deal too much damage but backstabbing was nerfed hard as well.... imo the nerf to wotep makes it uselesss.

 

What you could do is increase base penetration of 2h and increase the damage bonus of the 2h talent to 25%

Edited June 4, 2018 by Nemesis7884

[Lokithecat]

I know, end game, that the swings (just attacking) felt like comparable damage numbers.  In most cases I was just using whatever had the 'best' effects for my build, and not really sweating the numbers.

​Just glancing at some of the actual numbers, for comparison.  A Sword is, 13-19, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  A Great Sword is, 18-24, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  So, before talents, Dual Swords is doing 5 less damage every attack, at the same speed.  With Talents speeding up Dual, and increasing 2h Damage, the 2h Side still outdamages.

 

Adding 2 Armor to everything doesn't change the results, if anything, it hurts Dual more than 2 handed.  Eg.  assuming max damage roll (just base weapon damage / talents) and, Sword is 19 +6 Pen, 2H is 27.6 +6 Pen. 

 

With 20 Armor, Sword is 5 (reduced to 2.5 due to under pen), 2H is 13.6 (reduced to 6..

With 10 Armor, Sword is 15, 2H is 23.6.

With 2 Armor, Sword is 23 (increased to 34.5 for over pen), 2H is 31.6 (increased to 47.4).

 

So, with Under penetration, basic attack, and Over penetration numbers, comparing a Full attack Dual vs. 2h we get...

20 Armor, Dual is 5 Damage; 2h is 13.6

10 Armor, Dual is 30 Damage; 2h is 23.6

2 Armor, Dual is 69 Damage; 2h is 31.6

 

The only scenario that 2 Handed is better damage, is heavily armored enemies... so why would +2 Armor make 2H useless?

 

The other issue, is that every 'Full Attack' Dual wield has 2 rolls to hit, which could be good or bad, depending on skill v armor numbers.

 

2h (in a well balanced world) should have better significantly better enchants / effects, considering that a Dual or Sword & Board build has two items that can be enchanted, and you want some degree of balance.

[dunehunter]

I know, end game, that the swings (just attacking) felt like comparable damage numbers.  In most cases I was just using whatever had the 'best' effects for my build, and not really sweating the numbers.

​Just glancing at some of the actual numbers, for comparison.  A Sword is, 13-19, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  A Great Sword is, 18-24, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  So, before talents, Dual Swords is doing 5 less damage every attack, at the same speed.  With Talents speeding up Dual, and increasing 2h Damage, the 2h Side still outdamages.

 

Adding 2 Armor to everything doesn't change the results, if anything, it hurts Dual more than 2 handed.  Eg.  assuming max damage roll (just base weapon damage / talents) and, Sword is 19 +6 Pen, 2H is 27.6 +6 Pen. 

 

With 20 Armor, Sword is 5 (reduced to 2.5 due to under pen), 2H is 13.6 (reduced to 6. .

With 10 Armor, Sword is 15, 2H is 23.6.

With 2 Armor, Sword is 23 (increased to 34.5 for over pen), 2H is 31.6 (increased to 47.4).

 

So, with Under penetration, basic attack, and Over penetration numbers, comparing a Full attack Dual vs. 2h we get...

20 Armor, Dual is 5 Damage; 2h is 13.6

10 Armor, Dual is 30 Damage; 2h is 23.6

2 Armor, Dual is 69 Damage; 2h is 31.6

 

The only scenario that 2 Handed is better damage, is heavily armored enemies... so why would +2 Armor make 2H useless?

 

The other issue, is that every 'Full Attack' Dual wield has 2 rolls to hit, which could be good or bad, depending on skill v armor numbers.

 

2h (in a well balanced world) should have better significantly better enchants / effects, considering that a Dual or Sword & Board build has two items that can be enchanted, and you want some degree of balance.

 

Sword has modal that gives it 2 penetration. And all Full attacks yeah, favors dual wielding.

[Lokithecat]

There are +Penetration Modals, for 2h as well as 1h, so didn't bother listing any of that.  Full Attack is the only thing that is really disruptive to the 2h v 1h system as it stands, and the armor increase (if its enough to cause Under Penetration) hurts 2H less than Dual.

 

The system is fairly counter intuitive, compared to most games.  Many games, you'd have 2H attacking less often, Dual attacking with both weapons at the same time.... here a 1h + Shield, 1h and 2h, attacks just as often, as a dual wield character.  Until talents, when the Dual will have 5 attacks (3 Primary, 2 Off hand), in the time that the other guy has 4. 

 

The special moves (with pools being refreshed every encounter) throw it all out of whack, with Full Attack skills.  In spamming Full attacks, a Dual character will now have 10 attacks, in the time the others have 4.  Making it even worse, in most cases these Full Attacks specials will be better attacks, like 10 attacks at +50% vs 4 attacks at +50%.  Even in cases where its just applying an effect (Blind or something) where you can't double Blind someone, a Full Attack version will have 2 saves to try to get it to land (I think?).

Edited June 4, 2018 by Lokithecat

[Haplok]

I know, end game, that the swings (just attacking) felt like comparable damage numbers.  In most cases I was just using whatever had the 'best' effects for my build, and not really sweating the numbers.

​Just glancing at some of the actual numbers, for comparison.  A Sword is, 13-19, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  A Great Sword is, 18-24, 6 Pen, 0.7 Attack, 4.0 Recovery.  So, before talents, Dual Swords is doing 5 less damage every attack, at the same speed.  With Talents speeding up Dual, and increasing 2h Damage, the 2h Side still outdamages.

 

It looks like you're comparing single 1H vs 2H. The speed makes sense then (but you do get +12 Accuracy 1H and can also get additional Hit-to-Crit conversion). You seem to ignore reduced Recovery on Duals. Base 30% reduction and another 15% for Dual combat style. So you swing them a lot faster then 2H.

[Seroster01]

Dw has an innate 30% bonus to recovery speed, so after that & factoring in both DW & 2H talents into their respective formulas, auto-attacking comes in basically dead even.

 

The bigger issue is the full attacks. For testing in the 1.1 patch, I compared the legendary Chromo staff (has a unique scaling bonus to attack speed & weapon damage from Metaphysics, making it the best 2h weapon I could find) to DWing different other legendary enchanted 1-handers. Even with its bonus, when I compared it to 2 1h legendaries without similar bonuses the damage was about 35% higher in the character screen for the DW full-attack compared to the staff. That's pretty hefty considering that it makes the DW option much more efficient for using the limited class resource pools & also opens up more enchantment options, as you mentioned.

[Lokithecat]

I though I read something about the 30% reduction or some number, but when I was writing this, I went into the game, and was looking at tool tip #s to see things, so I had a point of reference.  A character with no skills in dual wielding, was still showing the same time when using 1h, or dual wielding, and the tooltip on recovery only showed their Dex, and their Armor.  Oddly, just looked on a game now, and showing the 30% on the tooltip.

 

So, much faster swinging, almost 3 Dual attacks to 2 'other' attacks.  The base numbers of 'high armor enemies' still favors 2 Handing.  Every other scenario Dual wielding is better.

 

The #s on some of the 2h weapons are just really strange though.  Like the 2h and 1h versions of Endless paths, the 1h has higher Base damage.... how...  And many other 2h weapons are substantially lower base damage than a 1h weapon, which obviously have even more DPS, when you take their speed into account.  Like the Wahai Poraga, 2h Poleaxe, does 12 - 17.  Sure, it could hit multiple people at once (so they gimped the damage to balance it?).

[Haplok]

You can't simply compare +15% additive base damage and +15% recovery reduction. That's apples and oranges really.

[AeonsLegend]

How about implementing something like this:

• Higher penetration for two handed weapons
• If a char has 4 points more in might than the enemy then the enemy has a % chance to be dazed with each hit
• If a char has 8 points more in might than the enemy then the enemy has a % chance to be knocked down with each hit. (slashing, crushing)
• If a char has 8 points more in might than the enemy then the enemy has a % chance to be pushed back with each hit. (piercing)

 

Numbers can be changed of course, but I feel like two handed weapons should have a little bit more oomph. I think might should be more impactful on these types of weapons. In D&D we have a 1,5 multiplier when wielding a weapon with two hands. That could also be done as well.

 

I was thinking of a bleeding effect on two handed slashing weapons, but that may be too much.