Failure to create a sequel. An improved version.

[Abel]

@Abel

What I meant by me getting off topic is that it wouldn't be too hard to justify strength being useful in spellcasting in some way. It would be more difficult (but not impossible) to justify having the strength of one's soul linked to one's physical strength. Though as a vaguely related aside Pillars does have too many things connected to 'having a strong soul'.

 

Yep, that is why i said it was far fetched earlier. Because if there was not this confusing problem about attributes, you would not need this, and because, too, if you can explain how a strong soul can give great strenght, the same kind of thing could then be easily made with the other attributes, and having it applied only to strenght is arbitrary, and thus, induce this far fetched feeling even more.

 

I really wanted to experiment the companion relationships and the muticlassing i waited so much for.

[Slotharingia]

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

[Boeroer]

 

While I wish 1.0 would be much more polished, I disagree strongly that the Deadfire, "reinvents" the wheel, or changes what didn't need to be changed. As Boeroer mentioned, the changes made were response to common criticism of the first game.

 

 

Unless I completely misread his post I don't think his point was that it was a good thing, it sounded clearly sardonic to me.

 

Yes, I was being sardonic.

 

But just because I think something's not meeting my taste or expectations doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It's just not what I would have done - but I don't have to earn my living with the development of video games (thank you, merciful fate). I mean if so many people don't get how endurance/health works there's only one thing Obsidian can do: make it simpler. They have to sell games after all.

 

And the government has to invest in better education obviously so we can have endurance/health back without confusing people too much... 

[Fluffle]

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

Well not quite. You see the problem is, that "might" starts with an "m", just like "muscle". Hence it's only logical to assume that "might" can only mean physical strength.

 

Of course you could try to see "might" as some kind of abstract attribute of power (be that power physical or non-physical in nature) but for very sensible and obvious reasons you shouldn't do that.

 

The reasons are so obvious in fact, that I need not name them and yet everyone will know them anyway.

[Stephen Unsworth-Mitchell]

 

 

While I wish 1.0 would be much more polished, I disagree strongly that the Deadfire, "reinvents" the wheel, or changes what didn't need to be changed. As Boeroer mentioned, the changes made were response to common criticism of the first game.

 

 

Unless I completely misread his post I don't think his point was that it was a good thing, it sounded clearly sardonic to me.

 

Yes, I was being sardonic.

 

But just because I think something's not meeting my taste or expectations doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It's just not what I would have done - but I don't have to earn my living with the development of video games (thank you, merciful fate). I mean if so many people don't get how endurance/health works there's only one thing Obsidian can do: make it simpler. They have to sell games after all.

 

And the government has to invest in better education obviously so we can have endurance/health back without confusing people too much... 

 

 

Haven't lived in Lugoj since 2006 so not sure how things are there.

 

Here in UK they are complaining lot that education standards dropped. Blame for it is Tories and there cuts. Imagine it will get lot worse before somethings done about it.

[AeonsLegend]

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

Perhaps it is described as physical OR spiritual strength, but it is implemented as physical AND spiritual strength.

Edited June 4, 2018 by AeonsLegend

[Abel]

 

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

Well not quite. You see the problem is, that "might" starts with an "m", just like "muscle". Hence it's only logical to assume that "might" can only mean physical strength.

 

Of course you could try to see "might" as some kind of abstract attribute of power (be that power physical or non-physical in nature) but for very sensible and obvious reasons you shouldn't do that.

 

The reasons are so obvious in fact, that I need not name them and yet everyone will know them anyway.

 

 

 

That is why i dislike trolls, who, obviously, would try their best to not understand the point of other people so that they can, you know, troll others in the most lowly way possible.

[Slotharingia]

 

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

Perhaps it is described as physical OR spiritual strength, but it is implemented as physical AND spiritual strength.

 

You mean like in scripted convos?  I'm totally not an expert in this field lol, I just have no difficult seeing Might as meaning mental power. In DAO they had magic, but if you were an arcane warrior it just translated it into physical strength. In Pillars any mage can be something like an arcane warrior afaik, so it seems to me that having 2 different stats would both restrict player freedom and present lots of characters with an extra stat they can more or less ditch to pump another.

[AeonsLegend]

 

 

What's the problem with Might? It's not "strength" and the game even describes it as physical OR spiritual strength.

Perhaps it is described as physical OR spiritual strength, but it is implemented as physical AND spiritual strength.

 

You mean like in scripted convos?  I'm totally not an expert in this field lol, I just have no difficult seeing Might as meaning mental power. In DAO they had magic, but if you were an arcane warrior it just translated it into physical strength. In Pillars any mage can be something like an arcane warrior afaik, so it seems to me that having 2 different stats would both restrict player freedom and present lots of characters with an extra stat they can more or less ditch to pump another.

 

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

[Slotharingia]

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

So what would you use instead?

[AeonsLegend]

 

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

So what would you use instead?

 

Well if you look at D&D for example there is only 1 stat that is really important for a mage and that is intelligence (or charisma for sorcerer and bard) and it doesn't increase damage, just chance to hit with its effects. Other stats are also important for a mage, because they have so few hitpoints, like dexterity to avoid damage and strength has a limiter as well in weight limit. There are no real penalties for a mage in POE if might wasn't an important stat. If you want to change this in POE you'd have to change much more than putting intelligence as its main focus. Because then it'd be too easy to build a mage type character and min max him that way. In POE mages and such aren't squishy enough to force them to build different stats.

 

A min maxed wizard in D&D starts with 4 HP, while a fighter or barbarian can start as high as 10-18 depending on stats. That's a major difference in survivability. Wizards get strong defensive spells especially later in the game, but they NEED them to stay alive vs any type of offense. This is never an issue in POE. Especially because stat growth except for HP is the same for all characters. That is actually a major design flaw if you ask me because at higher levels all these base stats don't mean much anymore. In D&D the only growth you have in stats is HP and chance to hit. Anything else comes from class feats, equipment and buffs. Also a wizard can wear full plate and only be slowed down a bit in POE, in D&D you can't do that.

 

I'm not saying D&D is better, I'm saying POE has some polishing to do in terms of how it deals with stats to make the classes more unique. As it stands, with the limited attributes available and the way stats work any character at level 20 is basically a super brawler.

[Abel]

 

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

So what would you use instead?

 

 

I'm not a game designer. Many people here (i'm repeating myself) can't seem to afford to look at the problem from a Roleplay perspective, like if RPGs were all about bashing and looting, like a Diablo would. Like i said, the attributes in Pillars are well designed  (probably, though i don't really care about this) from a mechanical point of view (character building, templates, numbers, stats,...), but they are inept when it comes to telling anything about the character they are built upon. What i need, from a Roleplay perspective, is a way to play a caster that is not a brawler. Having my flimsy caster displaying a high score of Might on its character sheet is an unbelievable bother to me, because, the sheet of my character tells me it has not only great spiritual power, but huge physical strenght, too. Which is a complete **** in the face of the background i wrote for the character.

 

I think the idea of rebalancing the attributes while using Resolve as a representation of spiritual power and making Might into physical Strenght, like it was in the beta, would be an acceptable way to go. This would allow me to have my character sheet be respectful of the work i did while writing the background and history of my character. It would have low physical strenght, but high spiritual power, like it was meant to be.

 

In the state of things, i can't look at my character sheet without thinking each time that my character is ****ed up. That it is not at all what it is meant to be. It's more than just a bother for me. I can't Roleplay it, because it feels utterly disatisfying. The only way for me to play with the Might attribute would be to create a character background that adapts itself to the attributes of Pillars (meaning forbidding the creation of all sorts of character backgrounds), while, in any pen and paper, attributes are meant to allow the player to Roleplay its character the way it was intended (in short, it's the other way around). Sawyer, imo, made the exact opposite with attributes that he was meant to do, when it comes to a RPG. He created a system of numbers to take care of combat mechanics and numbers in character building, while disregarding everything tied to actual RPG character creation.

 

Just think about this. This is the way i create a character for a RPG. First, i will write a background. Who the character his, his beliefs, his goals, his values, his fears, the things he hates, the way he thinks, hope, and despair. Then, i will tie it to some background origins. Country, social status, family, personal problems, cultures, talents, weaknesses. The kind of personality he has: courageous, coward, strong willed, overprotected, and so on... I would probably, too, work on langage habits, special traits, how the character origins could render it inept to understand things in a very different country. And i will try to think about its potential. Where it is it can evolve, where it is that lies its potential. And how a regular nobody could become more than the some of its parts when confronted to very special circumstances he was never prepared to face. And Pillars 1, with the madness lurking, was full of potential. And that is why i wanted since the start to have an Eothasian Priestess. I managed to create a character i really wanted to play, full of contradictions, flaws, and room to grow, because the story became so much personal to her. It should have been incredible fun...

 

Only AFTER creating all that, will i create the character and distribute the attributes. I will distribute them accordingly to the background i wrote exclusively, with great care. If the attributes prevent me from actually creating my character the way it was written, then there is a problem. A HUGE one. One i just can't forgive. I can do with crappy mechanics and character attributes, as long as they allow me to translate who my character is on his character sheet. In short, most of the things most people here consider most important for the game regarding attributes, are things i could not care less about. Although i try to consider your point of view too, and find some reasonable way to do things. I would then appreciate if the people who tend to troll (not you) would be willing to do the same from where they come from.

 

Regards.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Abel

[Slotharingia]

 

 

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

So what would you use instead?

 

 

I'm not a game designer. Many people here (i'm repeating myself) can't seem to afford to look at the problem from a Roleplay perspective, like if RPGs were all about bashing and looting, like a Diablo would. Like i said, the attributes in Pillars are well designed  (probably, though i don't really care about this) from a mechanical point of view (character building, templates, numbers, stats,...), but they are inept when it comes to telling anything about the character they are built upon. What i need, from a Roleplay perspective, is a way to play a caster that is not a brawler. Having my flimsy caster displaying a high score of Might on its character sheet is an unbelievable bother to me, because, the sheet of my character tells me it has not only great spiritual power, but huge physical strenght, too. Which is a complete **** in the face of the background i wrote for the character.

 

I think the idea of rebalancing the attributes while using Resolve as a representation of spiritual power and making Might into physical Strenght, like it was in the beta, would be an acceptable way to go. This would allow me to have my character sheet be respectful of the work i did while writing the background and history of my character. It would have low physical strenght, but high spiritual power, like it was meant to be.

 

In the state of things, i can't look at my character sheet without thinking each time that my character is ****ed up. That it is not at all what it is meant to be. It's more than just a bother for me. I can't Roleplay it, because it feels utterly disatisfying. The only way for me to play with the Might attribute would be to create a character background that adapts itself to the attributes of Pillars (meaning forbidding the creation of all sorts of character backgrounds), while, in any pen and paper, attributes are meant to allow the player to Roleplay its character the way it was intended (in short, it's the other way around). Sawyer, imo, made the exact opposite with attributes that he was meant to do, when it comes to a RPG. He created a system of numbers to take care of combat mechanics and numbers in character building, while disregarding everything tied to actual RPG character creation.

 

Just think about this. This is the way i create a character for a RPG. First, i will write a background. Who the character his, his beliefs, his goals, his values, his fears, the things he hates, the way he thinks, hope, and despair. Then, i will tie it to some background origins. Country, social status, family, personal problems, cultures, talents, weaknesses. The kind of personality he has: courageous, coward, strong willed, overprotected, and so on... I would probably, too, work on langage habits, special traits, how the character origins could render it inept to understand things in a very different country. And i will try to think about its potential. Where it is it can evolve, where it is that lies its potential. And how a regular nobody could become more than the some of its parts when confronted to very special circumstances he was never prepared to face. And Pillars 1, with the madness lurking, was full of potential. And that is why i wanted since the start to have an Eothasian Priestess. I managed to create a character i really wanted to play, full of contradictions, flaws, and room to grow, because the story became so much personal to her. It should have been incredible fun...

 

Only AFTER creating all that, will i create the character and distribute the attributes. I will distribute them accordingly to the background i wrote exclusively, with great care. If the attributes prevent me from actually creating my character the way it was written, then there is a problem. A HUGE one. One i just can't forgive. I can do with crappy mechanics and character attributes, as long as they allow me to translate who my character is on his character sheet. In short, most of the things most people here consider most important for the game regarding attributes, are things i could not care less about. Although i try to consider your point of view too, and find some reasonable way to do things. I would then appreciate if the people who tend to troll (not you) would be willing to do the same from where they come from.

 

Regards.

 

Would it not work to just see might as only spiritual power in a caster and vice versa in a fighter type? Like idk, if they do something requiring physical strength, just think of them having used a spell to do it or to enhance their stats so they could do it? I do see the point that a seperate stat would make more sense, but I doubt they will change it. While the stats don't bother me, the approval system really annoys me and ruins my characters for me, so I get it.

[Abel]

There are derived statistics and mechanics in game considering Might as Strenght when needed. Even if i managed to ''forget'' about the fact that Might is not only spiritual power, there are reminders everywhere.

[Verde]

My major issue, besides how easy the game is, is how nothing seems to have any real consequences in game...and if you complete a quest out of order for whatever reason, the game gets batty and stuff makes no sense - like dialogue options indicating I did something or met someone I didn't.

[Abel]

My major issue, besides how easy the game is, is how nothing seems to have any real consequences in game...and if you complete a quest out of order for whatever reason, the game gets batty and stuff makes no sense - like dialogue options indicating I did something or met someone I didn't.

 

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere this is a known issue. Some quests are buggy at the moment, and dialogue options would state things that makes no sense. I'm confident these problems will be solved one after the other, over time, through patches. Obsidian supported Pillars 1 like they should have. And i'm sure they will do the same will the sequel.

 

Cheers.

[Verde]

Thanks that is my hope too.

[Wormerine]

 

My major issue, besides how easy the game is, is how nothing seems to have any real consequences in game...and if you complete a quest out of order for whatever reason, the game gets batty and stuff makes no sense - like dialogue options indicating I did something or met someone I didn't.

 

I'm pretty sure i read somewhere this is a known issue. Some quests are buggy at the moment, and dialogue options would state things that makes no sense. I'm confident these problems will be solved one after the other, over time, through patches. Obsidian supported Pillars 1 like they should have. And i'm sure they will do the same will the sequel.

 

Cheers.

I don't know. With full VO, resources needed to write/plan/record all lines needed to adjust to every possible quest order seem significant. As I mostly followed the path laid before me I had only once isntance when Queen thanked me for dealing peacufully with a tribe I never met in a place I have never been to. I can easily imagine many such issues showing up, if one was more of an explorer than me. 

[Verde]

Well I knew where to take a certain set of notes based off of a dialogue option that referred to someone I didn't meet...but remembered where he lived. For me that stuff hurts the immersion.

[illathid]

 

 

If you want to look at it more simply then look at it like this: if you want to become stronger physically then you need to spend time working that body. If you want to become stronger mentally then you need to spend time reading and researching. You can of course do both, but you'd have to spend less time on both as well. In the end you can only train a few parts to max. That's the whole idea of stat distribution. To mimic what a person has apptitude for and what he trained for. The game treats it as if reading a book gives you more muscle and lifting weights gives you a better understanding of the arcane.

So what would you use instead?

 

 

I'm not a game designer. Many people here (i'm repeating myself) can't seem to afford to look at the problem from a Roleplay perspective, like if RPGs were all about bashing and looting, like a Diablo would. Like i said, the attributes in Pillars are well designed  (probably, though i don't really care about this) from a mechanical point of view (character building, templates, numbers, stats,...), but they are inept when it comes to telling anything about the character they are built upon. What i need, from a Roleplay perspective, is a way to play a caster that is not a brawler. Having my flimsy caster displaying a high score of Might on its character sheet is an unbelievable bother to me, because, the sheet of my character tells me it has not only great spiritual power, but huge physical strenght, too. Which is a complete **** in the face of the background i wrote for the character.

 

I think the idea of rebalancing the attributes while using Resolve as a representation of spiritual power and making Might into physical Strenght, like it was in the beta, would be an acceptable way to go. This would allow me to have my character sheet be respectful of the work i did while writing the background and history of my character. It would have low physical strenght, but high spiritual power, like it was meant to be.

 

In the state of things, i can't look at my character sheet without thinking each time that my character is ****ed up. That it is not at all what it is meant to be. It's more than just a bother for me. I can't Roleplay it, because it feels utterly disatisfying. The only way for me to play with the Might attribute would be to create a character background that adapts itself to the attributes of Pillars (meaning forbidding the creation of all sorts of character backgrounds), while, in any pen and paper, attributes are meant to allow the player to Roleplay its character the way it was intended (in short, it's the other way around). Sawyer, imo, made the exact opposite with attributes that he was meant to do, when it comes to a RPG. He created a system of numbers to take care of combat mechanics and numbers in character building, while disregarding everything tied to actual RPG character creation.

 

Just think about this. This is the way i create a character for a RPG. First, i will write a background. Who the character his, his beliefs, his goals, his values, his fears, the things he hates, the way he thinks, hope, and despair. Then, i will tie it to some background origins. Country, social status, family, personal problems, cultures, talents, weaknesses. The kind of personality he has: courageous, coward, strong willed, overprotected, and so on... I would probably, too, work on langage habits, special traits, how the character origins could render it inept to understand things in a very different country. And i will try to think about its potential. Where it is it can evolve, where it is that lies its potential. And how a regular nobody could become more than the some of its parts when confronted to very special circumstances he was never prepared to face. And Pillars 1, with the madness lurking, was full of potential. And that is why i wanted since the start to have an Eothasian Priestess. I managed to create a character i really wanted to play, full of contradictions, flaws, and room to grow, because the story became so much personal to her. It should have been incredible fun...

 

Only AFTER creating all that, will i create the character and distribute the attributes. I will distribute them accordingly to the background i wrote exclusively, with great care. If the attributes prevent me from actually creating my character the way it was written, then there is a problem. A HUGE one. One i just can't forgive. I can do with crappy mechanics and character attributes, as long as they allow me to translate who my character is on his character sheet. In short, most of the things most people here consider most important for the game regarding attributes, are things i could not care less about. Although i try to consider your point of view too, and find some reasonable way to do things. I would then appreciate if the people who tend to troll (not you) would be willing to do the same from where they come from.

 

Regards.

 

 

I guess I don't see the issue. Eora as a setting has physical and spiritual might linked, and that's a part of the background. Yes, it limits your ability to roleplay certain types of characters, but every system does this to some extent. For example, most editions of D&D conflate perception and wisdom, making an extremely wise Mr. Magoo impossible. While this can be disappointing, the remedy is to just roleplay a different character that does fit the system. I've had to do this in practically every tabletop and cRPG game I've ever played.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Verde]

Might affecting all damage and healing has been counterintuitive since PoE. Like you said, Resolve is a good candidate for spiritual power. It's a strange attribute system that I've just accepted but I dont roleplay magic users.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Verde

[Thormind]

 

Instead of simply improving upon the framework you had in the previous game and just taking all the mistakes you made, and fixing them. And ideas you had in hind sight, and applied them. You would have created a sequel. An improved version. Deadfire isn't pillars 2.0. It's almost different game.

Ha! You're basically repeating the criticism not a few beta testers (including me) came up with after playing the beta for some time.

 

What was so wrong with PoE1 that you had to reinvent the wheel (pun intended) instead of improving its mechanics for PoE2?

 

But Obsidian chose to comply with the criticism they received: DR/bypass too mushy, combat too confusing, endurance/health system too complicated to be grasped, talents feel bland, per-rest is no-no and a lot of other nonsense. So here we are. Enjoy!

 

 

Im sorry but what is it that they reinvented instead of improving? Because i really dont see anything changed so much in Deadfire that it wouldnt qualify as an improvement...

[Boeroer]

You want examples? I already gave some in that quote you used. But I can repeat myself, why not:

 

- removed the endurance/health system

- removed DR and use AR/PEN instead

- reinvented all afflictions and introduced inspirations

- removed per-rest abilites and introduced per-rest empower instead

- removed a general talent pool and put most of them back in as abilites

- introduced weapon proficiencies 

 

I could go on for hours... And no offense, but if you can't "see anything changed much" you must be either blind or clueless (on that matter).

 

I don't say that all of those "reinventions" are bad. Also reinventions and improvements are not mutually exclusive.

 

I just would have liked it more if they stayed closer the the mechanics of PoE1 and used their time and money to refine that system and put more work into the actual content of the game rather than mechanics (that will be bugged and unbalanced so that we will be in the same spot as with PoE1 after release - and we are).

 

But that's just my opinion. And I still enjoy Deadfire so far.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Boeroer

[Masticator]

So many complaints about might, but I actually have more issue with intelligence being a useful stat for barbarians. The system is whacked, no amount of explaining will make it right for me.

 

That said, I can put my issues to the side and enjoy my game. But I feel if it wasn't broke (the stats of Baldur's Gate/D&D games), there was no need to fix it. They may think they have fixed the problem with dump stats, but they haven't. I have discovered in my current play through of POE 1 with a min/maxed character I find the game so much easier than past play throughs with a "balanced" character like Josh likes it. I think Josh is a great designer, but he's wrong here. My min/maxed wizard is smashing everything. I used to struggle so much with POE1, now I know why. I made the mistake of listening to Josh.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Masticator

[rheingold]

OP made a perfectly valid point, one that I and some others on this forum thought would be a problem during the development.

I am enjoying the game and there are some positives and improvements on POE, but the fact is they were far to ambitious and spent way to much time on the new mechanics and open world and kinda threw out any consistency on the writing/world building.