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gristlethick

Failure to create a sequel. An improved version.

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I disagree with obsidian's approach in what a sequel should be. Maybe I'm full of myself here. But I'm a lowlife who has spent most of his time playing video games. The people who create these games tend to have a stable life because of the intellectual and artistic demands required in creating a functional video game. Especially one that a lot of people have high hopes for.

 

You've made the classic mistake I see developers make all the time. Instead of simply improving upon the framework you had in the previous game and just taking all the mistakes you made, and fixing them. And ideas you had in hind sight, and applied them. You would have created a sequel. An improved version. Deadfire isn't pillars 2.0. It's almost different game. It doesn't really bear it's previous title.

 

You've made too many new things. You don't know exactly what you're doing with your new things. You had the old things figured out for you. Why didn't you just improve upon that?  I can tell you ran out of time because you approached so many new avenues. This game needed another year at least.

 

I hate what you've done. Because it's half assed. If you want to create a new experience, really create something new. COMPLETELY different. If you want a new version, then focus on improving it from the previous game. You got caught in a situation where you know you weren't able to fulfill EITHER desire you had in creating something new that breaks the mold. Or an improvement from the previous game.

 

Don't end up in this limbo between new and improved ever again. It's lame. It's selfish.

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Instead of simply improving upon the framework you had in the previous game and just taking all the mistakes you made, and fixing them. And ideas you had in hind sight, and applied them. You would have created a sequel. An improved version. Deadfire isn't pillars 2.0. It's almost different game.

Ha! You're basically repeating the criticism not a few beta testers (including me) came up with after playing the beta for some time.

 

What was so wrong with PoE1 that you had to reinvent the wheel (pun intended) instead of improving its mechanics for PoE2?

 

But Obsidian chose to comply with the criticism they received: DR/bypass too mushy, combat too confusing, endurance/health system too complicated to be grasped, talents feel bland, per-rest is no-no and a lot of other nonsense. So here we are. Enjoy! ;)

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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But Obsidian chose to comply with the criticism they received: DR/bypass too mushy, combat too confusing, endurance/health system too complicated to be grasped, talents feel bland, per-rest is no-no and a lot of other nonsense. So here we are. Enjoy! ;)

 

 

And 6 people are too many to manage!

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Vancian =/= per rest.

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Hehe, yes. But there's also no point in repeating all that criticism over and over again when it's obvious that Obsidian didn't take it into account and the game is not like you imagined it should be.

 

Now it's either "play it because it's still fun" or "ditch it because it sucks too hard". For me it's the first but I can understand if it's number two for others.

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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To be honest I think they should have been more adventurous from the beginning.  I can't help but feel per rest and certain other mechanics were there for no other reason than "that's how the IE games did it."

 

I do lament the loss of health vs stamina, it is a much more interesting system than health that fully regens after combat.  With the removal of per rest abilities it would have helped add another layer of reasons to rest to the game.

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I think Pillars of Eternity II is to Pillars of Eternity I what Baldurs Gate II is to Baldurs Gate I. Sure the mechanics are slightly different and the orginal HP/Endurance system together with stat stacking of food and such is either gone or reduced. I feel it is improved vastly. This way it allows for actually improving failed classes like rogues. Actual multiclassing, forcing you to choose instead of simply buffing an original class.

 

I actually do feel that POEII went more towards D&D style than it had before. And I do like it, even though it "steals" certain aspects from the class system. ;)

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This post reads a bit like a drunken "note to self".

I think Deadfire is a massive improvement on POE1 in almost all areas. Granted some of the more experimental aspects could have been done better or would have worked better had they not been done at all, but all in all it's better and certainly qualifies as both sequel and improved version. Additionally, they quite reasonably want to appeal to a larger audience. Whether that goal was reached successfully is another matter, but you can't blame them for trying.

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Maybe I'm full of myself here. But I'm a lowlife who has spent most of his time playing video games. The people who create these games tend to have a stable life because of the intellectual and artistic demands required in creating a functional video game. Especially one that a lot of people have high hopes for.

 

Please, please don't take it the wrong way:

 

I'm really the last person to make fun of such things, and I don't want to be mean or dismiss your points, but think you need to seek help. This part is genuinely worrying.

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Maybe I'm full of myself here. But I'm a lowlife who has spent most of his time playing video games. The people who create these games tend to have a stable life because of the intellectual and artistic demands required in creating a functional video game. Especially one that a lot of people have high hopes for.

 

Please, please don't take it the wrong way:

 

I'm really the last person to make fun of such things, and I don't want to be mean or dismiss your points, but think you need to seek help. This part is genuinely worrying.

 

Internet assumptions and advice. Classic.

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yeah i cant beilive people actually responed to this post and gave the guy the attention he was clearly seaking

Who knows. At least he wrote a somewhat reasonable, non-provocative post about his criticism. I don't have to agree with everything to appreciate the form (except the last part - but the rest was ok so we can cut him a break ;)).

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Internet assumptions and advice. Classic.

I didn’t mean anything ill by it! Like Boeroer said, OP has made a civilized and reasonable point. It’s just the fact the chose his post to open with what amounts to “I’m a worthless piece of trash” that disturbs me.

 

I apologize if I jumped the gun with assumptions, but I’ve been there. It’s not a nice place to be in.

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Internet assumptions and advice. Classic.

I didn’t mean anything ill by it! Like Boeroer said, OP has made a civilized and reasonable point. It’s just the fact the chose his post to open with what amounts to “I’m a worthless piece of trash” that disturbs me.

 

I apologize if I jumped the gun with assumptions, but I’ve been there. It’s not a nice place to be in.

 

Oh I never said you meant this in a bad way. I'm pretty sure you didn't. All I'm saying is you should be mindful in dispensing advice with 0 knowledge on who you're talking to.

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Did not play Pillars 2 yet. Read a lot about it though. But, i'm worried about this sequel the same way i was with Tyranny, although, for different reasons. Tyranny (which i never bought, even with the -50% coupon i had), it was because of the absence of friendly fire and some other things like that, which spoke very clearly about the kind of game the developers wanted to make (which wasn't the kind i was interested in, especially as a RPG fan)... Pillars 2... Well, i can't just grab the intention behind things like 'auto-heal' after combat. It is even worse than Pillars 1's system. It reminds me of these old action games 20 years ago which were meant to allow the player to take a action, brainless approach of video games after a tiring day (which is not a bad thing in itself, admitedly). But, nowadays, there are plenty of craps like that, including in RPGs, which were meant to allow a whole different kind of experience, and which you played for whole different reasons. I don't need any more of this, seriously. Especially in my RPGs. I can't Roleplay a poor sod who would heal of fatal injuries after a nap. Even more so if he heals just like that after having a arm cut away. I need to take proper measures to solve the problem, like i would on a pen and paper RPG.

 

Josh stated that there was interesting aspects in nowadays Bethesda works (god...). I don't know which aspects he was talking about. But I guess it was about the disappearance of fixed numbers, like Skyrim tried. He said RPGs could go way further, but veteran RPG players were too used to old systems. Well, maybe. But by looking at the poos Bethesda and Bioware are selling these days, and all these ''quality of life improvements'' Obsidian tends to make lately, i can't tell i'm reassured about this. Actually, when i read ''quality of life improvements'' from Obsidian, i take it as a bad omen. Infinite Stash, .... For no reason whatsoever. Just because... you know, it's convenient.

 

There was a problem with people who would abuse of rest spam in BG and Pillars 1. In the end, they handled this problem by making resting almost useless. For someone like me, who won't spam rest (sleeping once a day, like it should be), the limited resources management was a very important aspect of adventuring. Potions, ammunitions, healing spells, combat spells, food, torches, encumbrance.... whatever...

 

I had some huge problems with Pillars 1 (the game had good redeeming qualities, but too many ''quality of life'' downgrades, inappropriate for a RPG, imho). I still backed Pillars 2. But, nowadays, i tend to be more interested in Wasteland 2, and wait eagerly Wasteland 3, way more than a finalized version of Pillars 2. InXile may be the last studio to craft RPGs the way i feel RPGs are meant to be, more or less.

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Did not play Pillars 2 yet. Read a lot about it though. But, i'm worried about this sequel the same way i was with Tyranny, although, for different reasons. Tyranny (which i never bought, even with the -50% coupon i had), it was because of the absence of friendly fire and some other things like that, which spoke very clearly about the kind of game the developers wanted to make (which wasn't the kind i was interested in, especially as a RPG fan)... Pillars 2... Well, i can't just grab the intention behind things like 'auto-heal' after combat. It is even worse than Pillars 1's system. It reminds me of these old action games 20 years ago which were meant to allow the player to take a action, brainless approach of video games after a tiring day (which is not a bad thing in itself, admitedly). But, nowadays, there are plenty of craps like that, including in RPGs, which were meant to allow a whole different kind of experience, and which you played for whole different reasons. I don't need any more of this, seriously. Especially in my RPGs. I can't Roleplay a poor sod who would heal of fatal injuries after a nap. Even more so if he heals just like that after having a arm cut away. I need to take proper measures to solve the problem, like i would on a pen and paper RPG.

 

Josh stated that there was interesting aspects in nowadays Bethesda works (god...). I don't know which aspects he was talking about. But I guess it was about the disappearance of fixed numbers, like Skyrim tried. He said RPGs could go way further, but veteran RPG players were too used to old systems. Well, maybe. But by looking at the poos Bethesda and Bioware are selling these days, and all these ''quality of life improvements'' Obsidian tends to make lately, i can't tell i'm reassured about this. Actually, when i read ''quality of life improvements'' from Obsidian, i take it as a bad omen. Infinite Stash, .... For no reason whatsoever. Just because... you know, it's convenient.

 

There was a problem with people who would abuse of rest spam in BG and Pillars 1. In the end, they handled this problem by making resting almost useless. For someone like me, who won't spam rest (sleeping once a day, like it should be), the limited resources management was a very important aspect of adventuring. Potions, ammunitions, healing spells, combat spells, food, torches, encumbrance.... whatever...

 

I had some huge problems with Pillars 1 (the game had good redeeming qualities, but too many ''quality of life'' downgrades, inappropriate for a RPG, imho). I still backed Pillars 2. But, nowadays, i tend to be more interested in Wasteland 2, and wait eagerly Wasteland 3, way more than a finalized version of Pillars 2. InXile may be the last studio to craft RPGs the way i feel RPGs are meant to be, more or less.

This is why I never listen to others, read up on or in any other way accumulate information other than a release date for sequels. I like to form my own opinion.

 

Be aware that most people going online to talk about something do so because they have something to complain about. Constructive or not. This gives you the wrong impression of what YOU would like. If you are to believe the feedback people give on Avengers Infinity on IMDB it must be the worst movie of all time. Which it obviously isn't. It was awesome. To me.

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Could do without the self-effacement, but it's not flamebait. I don't think that returning to per rest and health-endurance would change much. Rationing resources and attrition just aren't possible without maps like PoE had. It seems like Obsidian listened to all the people who whined about meaningless encounters and took that as gospel, and they ignored the years of passion put into the builds forum by people who actually liked to theorycraft against the content. Imo they should've just funneled the first group into story mode.

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The problem is not about add new things,but lost the old thing:a long and epic main story.

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Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, She got the Mercedes Benz

She's got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, that she calls friends

How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.

Some dance to remember, some dance to forget

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Could do without the self-effacement, but it's not flamebait. I don't think that returning to per rest and health-endurance would change much. Rationing resources and attrition just aren't possible without maps like PoE had. It seems like Obsidian listened to all the people who whined about meaningless encounters and took that as gospel, and they ignored the years of passion put into the builds forum by people who actually liked to theorycraft against the content. Imo they should've just funneled the first group into story mode.

While I am of a mind that appreciates the area layout of the first game as it appeases to my BG addiction I disagree with the way you present your statement.

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It's an improvement over PoE1 in almost every way. Just a shame that the balance was so unbelievably far off at launch that none of the gameplay mechanics had a chance to shine. No combat system can feel good if the balance is so far off that you can ignore most of the mechanics entirely, not think about what you or the enemy is doing and still win.

 

The combat plays badly because the enemy doesn't (or didn't) pose a challenge, not because they removed forcing you to sit through load screens in order to access unlimited resting.

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While I wish 1.0 would be much more polished, I disagree strongly that the Deadfire, "reinvents" the wheel, or changes what didn't need to be changed. As Boeroer mentioned, the changes made were response to common criticism of the first game. In addition, if there are issues with the core of the game (such is pacing, exploration, resting, ability use etc.) you can't really fix that without digging deep into underlying systems. 

The way I discribe to my friends is that it is sequel to a game inspired by games adapting the D&D engine. PoE1 tried to recreate Baldur's Gate experience, while trying to clean it up. Deadfire looks at PoE, sees what works and what doesn't and adjusts. It's further from IE games and it is better for it. Whenever the system will end up being worse/as good as/better than PoE3.5 time will tell.

I for one am sick of sequels which repeat mistakes and flaws of previous installments over and over again. Deadfire ambition to fix flaws of the first game, is something I like and respect, even if final product is (and will be) flawed in its own way. 

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While I wish 1.0 would be much more polished, I disagree strongly that the Deadfire, "reinvents" the wheel, or changes what didn't need to be changed. As Boeroer mentioned, the changes made were response to common criticism of the first game.

 

 

Unless I completely misread his post I don't think his point was that it was a good thing, it sounded clearly sardonic to me.

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It does not take any testing for me to know beforehand that the auto-heal thing will rebuke me to the point that i would problably drop the game. I never finished Pillars 1. Not yet. I had many reasons for that, despite the obvious qualities of the game (amongst which, unclear tooltips was one, dumb crafting system was another, ...), but 3 of my main gripes were:

 

1- the Might attribute (forbidding me to Roleplay my flimsy elve priestess, because having high magical power meant she had the physical strenght of an ogre, too. This problem seems to be solved in Pillars 2, which is a genuine, intense relief for me).

 

2- was the Infinite Stash. Not that i'm opposed to a way to help with managing inventory, but throwing in the game this ''thing'', without putting any effort in lore, itemization, or such, to make it blend as a natural thing in the fantasy world of Pillars was a HUGE hindrance to me. I could SEE all the way along that all it was, was a game mechanic, without ANY effort to hide it will lore, natural implementation in stores for it to be bought, or anything of the sort.

 

And 3: the HP system (auto-heal with a nap, no healing spells). Since i wrote the diary of my character in the in-game journal, day by day, i can tell you that i had to do some horrendous metagaming while writing the story of my character's days, in order to explain things that could not be explained in any other way than: ''well, it's the health system mechanic of the game''. It's even worse for me that in Fallout 3, when you would meet again and again respawns of Enclave bases all over the place, even after you wiped them out, just because the stupid Bethesda's level scaling system could only find deathclaws or Enclave troops to present me with my level, wherever i would go. These things may exist in some game genres, not in RPGs.

 

The world, story and such may be awesome, but i know already, without even testing that some things can't have their way with me. I guess everyone have their things. These are mine. I was satisfied with the BG health system, where you needed to use spells or go see a priest in a temple. I was almost satisfied with the one in the first 2 Fallout, or Wasteland 2, where, even though you don't need to sleep (which is a shame), you need to find a doctor, use your medics skills or stimpack-like consumable to solve your injuries troubles. It's nothing really deep, but it's a good compromise for me.

 

 

EDIT: Ok, i just checked about the Might attribute. Looks like, in the end, they changed it again, and it's back to the same frustrating crap as in Pillars 1. If you want a great healer/powerful magic caster, you have no choice but to have him/her have the physical strenght of an ogre, too. Well, that's it for me. The one thing i was happy about Pillars 2 actually never happened. Good thing is: i won't have to finish my Pillars 1 playthrough, or to go through the hassle to redeem my game key.

Edited by Abel

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Maybe I'm full of myself here. But I'm a lowlife who has spent most of his time playing video games. The people who create these games tend to have a stable life because of the intellectual and artistic demands required in creating a functional video game. Especially one that a lot of people have high hopes for.

 

Please, please don't take it the wrong way:

 

I'm really the last person to make fun of such things, and I don't want to be mean or dismiss your points, but think you need to seek help. This part is genuinely worrying.

 

 

I agree. Devs work brutal hours for pay that just isn't satisfactory for the amount of time they put in and it causes all sorts of issues both physical and mental. I've seen at least one developer contemplate suicide before.


Yes! We have no bananas.

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It's an improvement over PoE1 in almost every way. Just a shame that the balance was so unbelievably far off at launch that none of the gameplay mechanics had a chance to shine. No combat system can feel good if the balance is so far off that you can ignore most of the mechanics entirely, not think about what you or the enemy is doing and still win.

 

The combat plays badly because the enemy doesn't (or didn't) pose a challenge, not because they removed forcing you to sit through load screens in order to access unlimited resting.

^This! The only thing really outta whack is the difficulty and the combat system balance (a bit ironic, given how much criticism we reported during the beta).

The other thing is that it's almost story lite - and the story itself is rather generic and not so super-engaging. Also, there's a dearth of real dungeons, as in meaty, extensive and utterly absurd (as in the ye olde D&D PnP tradition - with heaps of such scenarios and adventures over the years). Otherwise, PoE2 is a wonderful CRPG! :)

Edited by IndiraLightfoot
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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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