Sorry, guys... the ship was too boring for me to continue

[Isometric Chicken]

First of all, I want to say I really want to love most of the game. 90% of it feels like a major step up from the first game. The characters, the story, the places we get to explore... most of it is fantastic. The combat is more fast paced, and I love that. Exploring a dungeon or two feels great, and I love stuff like shooting an explosive barrel, have a pirate come to investigate why the barrel is on fire, and have the barrel blow up in his face. Literally.   So as I said, most of it is fantastic. Most of it. And yet... there's the ship. Ugh, the ship... Not even sure what the point in this post is, but to be honest, the ship was a game-breaker for me. I get the idea why we have one, and I like that. The ship should have been awesome. It's just... not.

 

First of all, what's the point with the ship in the first place? I get to explore a huge map with tons of islands to explore, but why should I care about any of them? Most islands I've been to have places I can click to pick stuff up (click to get fruit, click to get supplies, click to get ammo etc), and some have places where I get to fight monsters in a very tiny "arena map", if that makes sense. One mad person on a hill, a few monsters in a tiny forest, a few monsters in a slightly different forest... There are even islands with nothing on them at all, or just a tiny vendor who sells me stuff I can find in a random shop in a random town anyway. What's the point? 

 

The endless need for supplies is getting tedious too, especially as they don't really "need" anything. Supplies seems to be cheap enough, so I have yet to get anywhere close to running out of anything. Especially as there isn't really anything I feel the need to spend money on. It makes me wonder why this is even a mechanic. It's probably a big deal at higher levels, but I want to play for fun, not to struggle to survive on the world map.

 

And speaking of survival, a lot of my time at sea consist of me trying and failing to run away from attacking ships. These are far too powerful for me to even consider fighting (and waiting literally right outside port when I first got the ship....), and they are too fast for me to outrun directly. Which means I spend a lot of time looking at that shiplog and clicking "Full speed ahead" to try to get away. Even then, they get to shoot at me from time to time, and some of them hits.

 

All in all, I love most of this game, but the ship was just... ugh, no. It takes up far too much of my time in the game, and most of it is just boring. Never thought I'd miss the world map from the first game, but as it is, I've only played about 10 hours, yet I'm very reluctant to get back into the game. I just don't want to go exploring dungeons like in the first game, and never go sailing again. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Isometric Chicken

[Yonjuro]

....

And speaking of survival, a lot of my time at sea consist of me trying and failing to run away from attacking ships. These are far too powerful for me to even consider fighting (and waiting literally right outside port when I first got the ship....), and they are too fast for me to outrun directly. Which means I spend a lot of time looking at that shiplog and clicking "Full speed ahead" to try to get away. Even then, they get to shoot at me from time to time, and some of them hits.

 

.....

 

 The game might just not be your cup of tea, but you can win the ship battles fairly early on, especially if you buy a few upgrades.

 

 There are a few good threads about how to win the ship battles if you ever want to give them another go and you always have the option to board and fight on deck in the usual way.

[wih]

There should be an option to autoresolve the ship battle automatically. Maybe even several options, like:

  1. (Autoresolve) Try to board them directly and proceed to the fight on deck.

  2. (Autoresolve) Try to outmaneuver and weaken them, then proceed to the fight on deck.

  3. (Autoresolve) Try to flee.

 

 

[InsaneCommander]

Check the achievements, some of them are pretty easy to get. If you start a new game with Berath's Blessings, choose the option for +50.000 money and use it to upgrade your ship and/or cannons. I imagine this is a good way to avoid worrying about ship battles in the early game. There is also an option for starting as an experienced captain.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

If the ship hugs you that much just click "sail forwards" until you get a boarding battle.

[mazeltov]

There is a surrender option. The enemy captain demands X amount of your supplies.

[Big-Ben]

There's also a mod on the Nexus that allows you to not take damage when you ram the other ship upon immediately seeing it. You just go straight to physical combat. You no longer really need to fight ship to ship anymore.

 

You do of course have to win the physical confrontation. You can still get your ass beat there.

[Crucis]

First of all, I want to say I really want to love most of the game. 90% of it feels like a major step up from the first game. The characters, the story, the places we get to explore... most of it is fantastic. The combat is more fast paced, and I love that. Exploring a dungeon or two feels great, and I love stuff like shooting an explosive barrel, have a pirate come to investigate why the barrel is on fire, and have the barrel blow up in his face. Literally.   So as I said, most of it is fantastic. Most of it. And yet... there's the ship. Ugh, the ship... Not even sure what the point in this post is, but to be honest, the ship was a game-breaker for me. I get the idea why we have one, and I like that. The ship should have been awesome. It's just... not.

 

First of all, what's the point with the ship in the first place? I get to explore a huge map with tons of islands to explore, but why should I care about any of them? Most islands I've been to have places I can click to pick stuff up (click to get fruit, click to get supplies, click to get ammo etc), and some have places where I get to fight monsters in a very tiny "arena map", if that makes sense. One mad person on a hill, a few monsters in a tiny forest, a few monsters in a slightly different forest... There are even islands with nothing on them at all, or just a tiny vendor who sells me stuff I can find in a random shop in a random town anyway. What's the point? 

 

The endless need for supplies is getting tedious too, especially as they don't really "need" anything. Supplies seems to be cheap enough, so I have yet to get anywhere close to running out of anything. Especially as there isn't really anything I feel the need to spend money on. It makes me wonder why this is even a mechanic. It's probably a big deal at higher levels, but I want to play for fun, not to struggle to survive on the world map.

 

And speaking of survival, a lot of my time at sea consist of me trying and failing to run away from attacking ships. These are far too powerful for me to even consider fighting (and waiting literally right outside port when I first got the ship....), and they are too fast for me to outrun directly. Which means I spend a lot of time looking at that shiplog and clicking "Full speed ahead" to try to get away. Even then, they get to shoot at me from time to time, and some of them hits.

 

All in all, I love most of this game, but the ship was just... ugh, no. It takes up far too much of my time in the game, and most of it is just boring. Never thought I'd miss the world map from the first game, but as it is, I've only played about 10 hours, yet I'm very reluctant to get back into the game. I just don't want to go exploring dungeons like in the first game, and never go sailing again. 

 

Some people who played POE1 wanted a more involved stronghold.  Well, they got it, because in PoE2, your ship *IS* your stronghold.  That's pretty much why you have to manage all the details of your ship, like food and drink, and a crew, and ship vs ship combat.

 

As for survival in your ship early in the game, yes, your ship early on is pretty weak.  Which is why you have to use the map function to evade other ships for a while.  But after a while, your ship becomes a good deal stronger, without even buying a larger, more powerful ship.  Making the Defiant stronger involves recruiting a crew to fill all the necessary slots.  It also helps to have some reserve crew so that if you take injuries in a battle, you can shift people around and still keep the ship operational.  Also, your ship's ability to fight boarding actions becomes stronger with both a full crew as well as building up a reserve of companions/sidekicks, because those reserve companions/sidekicks who aren't in your active party still help defend your ship during boarding actions.  So, even if you have a full party of 5, but a reserve of 4-5 extra companion/sidekicks, that's 4-5 more strong combatants helping out, which makes a huge difference.

 

I'm only maybe (just guessing) halfway through the game (my party is at level 12, IIRC).  And there are very few ships now that I run from in my upgraded Defiant.  Mostly only the ones that the encounter rating system tells me are probably too difficult for me.  But other than those few ships, I'm more than willing to take on pretty much anything at sea with my trusty little Defiant.

 

And only 10 hours?  My god, you have no patience.

[SonicMage117]

You don't have to apologize.

 

If we're going to be honest and transparent forum members here, we already knee that Deadfire wouldn't be for everyone, an what's more some of the backers aren't even happy with it. This was to be expected since the game was much different than the first.

 

 

p.s I hope this thread doesn't turn into an attack-the-OP-fest because the OP made some good points and his opinion doesn't support the game. Too many threads have been deleted for members here not being able to handle it.

Edited May 21, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Boeroer]

Blabla Sonic, really. :/

 

@OP: I feel you. Ship stuff is also not one of my favorites so far. Nice post by the way. It shows that one can criticize the game without giving the picture of an angry snot nosed brat that got raised by Xaurips.

[whiskiz]

Yeah i'm not sure why they felt the need to turn the classic/traditional RPG into Pirates of the Carribean and why they are still casually implementing the attrition systems, which makes them a pointless and tedious gimmick and nothing more.

 

(You either enforce strict and meaningful attrition systems, or you remove them entirely. You don't have half of one willy-nilly thrown in that is mostly pointless. I'm talking about both supplies and injuries/resting. If you're trying to go too mainstream and appease the casual crowd for biggest profits, then man-up and remove the mechanic entirely, since the casual crowd won't be able to handle nor enjoy a properly/strict implemented attrition system. That's on you guys. Don't leave an archaic system in done half-assed, just because the oldschool predecessors had it and a couple of nostalgia-ridden oldschoolers will be unhappy.)

Edited May 21, 2018 by whiskiz

[vanyel54]

Good post. I could add that boarding fights are a mess for me (tactically). If you dont have some good tanks, you could be overwhelmed in seconds. Too bad for those who like to play CC with glass canon characters. I dont know how it can be managed in solo...

I love the pirate universe but the ship fight is THE big problem of the game for me.

[SonicMage117]

Yeah i'm not sure why they felt the need to turn the classic/traditional RPG into Pirates of the Carribean and why they are still casually implementing the attrition systems, which makes them a pointless and tedious gimmick and nothing more.

While what you say is very true, I can see why Obsidian did such a thing, they wanted the game to appeal to more people. It was either ninjas or pirates and pirates was the easy way to go since ninjas have a far more complex lore to them (and it would be unfair to inject full on ninjas into the pillars world anyway)

 

Unfortunately, it's easy to see by now (for anyone) that they bit off a bit more than they could chew and when you try to put too much into something, it can backfire. I will admit though, that Deadfire cover used in marketing, wss brilliant and beautiful. I think as far as sales go, it will help the game surpass the first just because it has a pirate ship in the cover. Pirate games are a thing now so it was an "easy" option. So there's that at least

[Phyriel]

I don't understand why people dislike naval systems, it has pretty much everything this game consist - it has scripted dialog arcade thingy, it has combat, it has resource management (supplies, crew, ship inventory) and it provides immersive way to travel around. I mean it would be kewl if we had real time ship combat that includes animations for shooting cannons, boarding and all naval maneuvers but lets be real here:) It's pretty much as good as it gets. I mean how would you do it differently before it turns into some Sea of Thieves pirate simulator? 

 

Especially after you compare it to stronghold from poe 1 that was just a money sink and adventures were click and forget kinda thing. I liked one thing with stronghold, and that was a quest vs this baron that wanted it back which resulted in big ass battle. That one thing was kewl, rest was just a waste of time and money (which didn't matter at the end anyway because money was useless and you couldn't spend it all even if you wanted). Stronghold became just a poor justification for some quests later on like "Go and deal with Torn Bannerman because they are surely gonna come here after dealing with Cancelhaut ". 

 

Ship and the inconvenience that come with early naval adventures makes fine use of your money, it costs a lot to outfit a ship to such a degree that it makes you safe on seas so you have to make a choice - enchant your gear and buy some expensive vendor pieces early or outfit ship and have much more freedom to sail here and there. 

 

About ship combat in boarding phase... when I hear arguments that its too hard when literally half of these boards whine "combat in the game is trivial" i die a little bit inside. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Phyriel

[Slotharingia]

In my first playthrough I got to round 80+ trying to escape from ships attacking me that I had no hope in hell of beating, and ended up reloading, so I hung around in Neketaka until I could afford the dhow (I think - the small fast ship), then used that until I had enough cash and decent cannons for the galleon. This time I tried to board the other ships instead of running away and was outnumbered 5-1, so again reloaded if I got attacked and quicksaved and constantly paused to check the map for other ships while at sea, then got a junk in neketaka with help of the Berath's blessings + cash. Basicallly, you have to either get a better ship asap or be really good at getting your head around the ship combat, which I personally still struggle with. Apparently some people can get away with keeping the crappy ship you start off with, but ekera, not me, I say. I had no idea at all what to do until I read some advice here.

 

Why can't we keep ships we board instead of buying new ones and/or in addition to ships we already have? Seems like one could have expanded that aspect of the game and let the Watcher build their own fleet.

 

That's not to say I don't like the ships, I do, but they are definitely overwhelming for new players.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Slotharingia

[SonicMage117]

I mean how would you do it differently before it turns into some Sea of Thieves pirate simulator?

 

I would have loved if Obsidian took notes from FailBetter Games... (Sunless Sea) instead of trying to be innovative with it. Sunless Sea is still the perfect example of an Rpg first game with real time sailing/ship combat as a secondary feature, and it does it so well that some people (who have never played it before) would think that it's a sailing game first and an Rpg second. Edited May 21, 2018 by SonicMage117

[George_Truman]

The first playthrough I hated the ships, which made siding with Rautai really funny. Now I love it and think its hilarious. With the defiant use the long guns with 6 turns reload, then jibe=>hold=>fire=jibe=>hold=fire. When you get the galleon or junk you can use the double bronzers and (with experienced gunners) just jibe=>fire=>jibe=>fire.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Honestly, Old school pirate games like Sid Meier's Pirates managed to do the whole ship battle thing better and those graphics are definitely dated.

 

It's apparently really hard to create a good pirate game, all the most recent ones have been pretty awful. Even AC:Black Flag and AC:Rogue with it's AAA gaming budget were incredibly shallow. 

 

Though I don't really see how they managed to mess up the whole text adventure that is ship to ship combat in this game. There's no graphics to even worry about yet they failed to even create a balanced and interesting ship combat with just text. Every battle can just be won without ever firing a cannon and the difference in ship size means almost nothing. Maybe it was too punishing at some point and they made it incredibly easy mode so noobs wouldn't get scared off? I don't know. It's just completely unsatisfying. 

[whiskiz]

"I mean how would you do it differently before it turns into some Sea of Thieves pirate simulator? "

 

That's what i meant when i said "Yeah i'm not sure why they felt the need to turn the classic/traditional RPG into Pirates of the Carribean" Because if not done fully, it will be imbalanced, off-putting, simple, not fun etc for the majority.

 

And if done properly, it costs alot more time and resources - and doing so on that one random system/theme, makes it detract even further from the rest of the game.

 

It's a lose-lose situation. You said how else would you do it differently, without it turning into something else entirely and detracting from the base game/genre? That's easy - you don't do it.

 

I get it, apparently people wanted an interactive stronghold and it's a cool idea being able to travel with your stronghold and adventure with it, combat with it, upgrade it, buy crew for it - but once the novelty of those wear off and it's seen for what it is - unless enough time and energy is put in that it becomes it's own thing - it's going to be too shallow, too gimmicky, too different and generally off-putting.

 

This is as an RPG that tried to be something else entirely and unless you have the triple-A budget for it, it's not going to end well.

 

People are saying they love most of the rest of the game (besides balance, bugs and all the other problems) the story, combat, graphics etc - they should have stuck to what they know - what this genre is all about and what makes it great.

 

They should have put all the time and resources used to make rando pirate naval combat into the rest of it to add that much more - that much more variety, that much more depth and that much more length.

Edited May 21, 2018 by whiskiz

[Phyriel]

Sunless Sea falls more into category of management games like Frostpunk (from the recent ones) than a fully fledged rpg. I mean you bring a good point of game where naval theme is in depth and engaging but you bring a game that is entirely built around that, that's not a very valid solution for poe 2 in which use of naval theme is more a mini game and immersive way to travel around the world. 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Phyriel

[SonicMage117]

Maybe it was too punishing at some point and they made it incredibly easy mode so noobs wouldn't get scared off? I don't know. It's just completely unsatisfying.

 

Ehhh... it's a bit more sinister than that, sadly.

 

"Want interesting ship mechanics/combat? Buy the upcoming dlc!!!"

 

Tbh, not sure how balancing and story got so messed up but I'm kinda glad they didn't cater specifically to fans/backers when developing this game. Gotta make new fams somehow I guess, even if that means pushing the more difficult stuff to the dlc expansions.

Sunless Sea falls more into category of management games like Frostpunk (from the recent ones) than a fully fledged rpg. I mean you bring a good point of game where naval theme is in depth and engaging but you bring a game that is entirely built around that, that's not a very valid solution for poe 2 in which use of naval theme is more a mini game and immersive way to travel around the world.

 

Perhaps that's the reason why so many are unsatisfied with Deadfire. Obsidian kinda hyped the crap out of it but the fact that it ended up being treated as a one-way street mini-game rather than a gameplay feature with actual depth and meaning makes it not the experience we hoped for.

 

I mean of course it's tolerable but you know what I mean It's basically just that and nothing more. Considering that the ship was Obsidian's main marketing tool (as seen in the covers and pictures) nobody can argue that it should be much grander feature in the game unless of course we want to give customers the wrong idea and raise sales but maybe they just ran out of time and said "We'll wait for dlc" teehee.

Edited May 21, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Phyriel]

"I mean how would you do it differently before it turns into some Sea of Thieves pirate simulator? "

 

That's what i meant when i said "Yeah i'm not sure why they felt the need to turn the classic/traditional RPG into Pirates of the Carribean" Because if not done fully, it will be imbalanced, off-putting, simple, not fun etc for the majority.

 

And if done properly, it costs alot more time and resources - and doing so on that one random system/theme, makes it detract even further from the rest of the game.

 

It's a lose-lose situation. You said how else would you do it differently, without it turning into something else entirely and detracting from the base game/genre? That's easy - you don't do it.

 

I get it, apparently people wanted an interactive stronghold and it's a cool idea being able to travel with your stronghold and adventure with it, combat with it, upgrade it, buy crew for it - but once the novelty of those wear off and it's seen for what it is - unless enough time and energy is put in that it becomes it's own thing - it's going to be too shallow, too gimmicky, too different and generally off-putting.

 

This is as an RPG that tried to be something else entirely and unless you have the triple-A budget for it, it's not going to end well.

 

It's a matter of expectations I guess. I never expected naval system in poe to be a thing that would rival with depth of char creation and land combat. I treated it as a immersive way to travel around and free up the player from otherwise nightmarish system (imagine if you had to travel to port area of every city/island, then move to NPC that sells trips to various islands and travel that way). In addition as far as a mini game with some soft management cherry on top it does the job nicely I'd say. 

[theBalthazar]

Flag and AC:Rogue with it's AAA gaming budget were incredibly shallow. 

 

Though I don't really see how they managed to mess up the whole text adventure that is ship to ship combat in this game. There's no graphics to even worry about yet they failed to even create a balanced and interesting ship combat with just text. Every battle can just be won without ever firing a cannon and the difference in ship size means almost nothing. Maybe it was too punishing at some point and they made it incredibly easy mode so noobs wouldn't get scared off? I don't know. It's just completely unsatisfying. 

 

 

That's why a concept card was the best idea.

 

Battle ship is absolutely boring now. Even people said they "like" this feature, they describe a routine absolutely boring jibe > fire > jibe > fire. Short, it is invasive and not interresting but few people have found a way to pass that fast. It is all.

 

A card game, more conceptual but also far more fun was THE solution.

 

A giant tray with blue square (and sometimes few things mountainous square. Token with effect (all ships). Moving with bonuses or malus, might of wind. Eventually call others ship in the tray (factions etc.) Never arrive turn 1 but perhaps turn 3 or 4. I don't know.

 

For a real battle ship, strategic and interresting. War of position, of passive and active ability. 

 

Passive : +25 % of speed sailing during 1 tour. And a decade different, like that.

Active : Shoot 2 cannonball one turn and reload for 2 turns. Same.

 

Each crew member with an ability (active and passive) more than a simple role. A COLLECTION of crew members more precious than others with unique abilities. (rank gold for example, like unique card in gwent with more powerful effects).

 

And you have a beginning of interrest. But here, this is simply not interresting. Yet the system is quite invasive

Edited May 21, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Phyriel]

 

...I'm kinda glad they didn't cater specifically to fans/backers when developing this game...

 

Haha yeah, if they did we'd probably have to clean cannons ourselves in real time with a mini game that looks something like opening locks in Skyrim or if it was text/dialog based then we'd need excel spreadsheets to have 0.12233454% (exactly) chance of survival ( Leeroy Jenkins ref ). Derp.

[Phyriel]

 

Flag and AC:Rogue with it's AAA gaming budget were incredibly shallow. 

 

Though I don't really see how they managed to mess up the whole text adventure that is ship to ship combat in this game. There's no graphics to even worry about yet they failed to even create a balanced and interesting ship combat with just text. Every battle can just be won without ever firing a cannon and the difference in ship size means almost nothing. Maybe it was too punishing at some point and they made it incredibly easy mode so noobs wouldn't get scared off? I don't know. It's just completely unsatisfying. 

 

 

That's why a concept card was the best idea.

 

Battle ship is absolutely boring. Even people said they "like" this feature, they describe a routine absolutely boring jibe > fire > jibe > fire. Short, it is invasive and not interresting.

 

A card game, more conceptual but also far more fun was THE solution.

 

A tray with square. Token with effect. Moving with bonuses. Eventually call others ship in the tray (factions etc.)

 

For a real battle ship, strategic and interresting. War of position, of passive and active ability. 

 

Passive : +25 % of speed sailing during 1 tour.

Active : Shoot 2 cannonball one turn and reload for 2 turns.

 

Each crew member with an ability (active and passive) more than a role. A COLLECTION of crew member more precious than others with unique abilities. (rank gold for example, like unique card in gwent).

 

And you have a beginning of interrest. But here, this is simply not interresting.

 

 

If it was like that I'd probably use console to teleport around islands because I truly detest mixing RPGs that are mainly about char/party development, dungeon crawls and some story, dialog experiences with some weird strategy, turn based mini games inside them (card game? seriously? maybe also busting some card packs open for legendary sails and cannons Hearthstone style?).

 

I mean maybe stop being ass about naval combat not being entire extra game and rather compare it to poe 1 hmm? It does so much more in terms of what it does to immersion than just bland click to travel -> loading screen -> you're there of poe 1, it actually gives you a choice how you wanna approach it, I for one don't like shooting cannons or engage in that crap, I got different games for that so I have a ship that allows me to just crash into others and cut to the boarding phase asap (but for that I had to spend some gold for a sturdy ship). So by giving you that choice it also becomes a valid gold sink, especially early game when you'd want that gold for enchants / vendor pieces that cost like 13k+. Compare it to what it achieves versus poe 1 stronghold instead of picturing some extra full game inside poe 2 that is complete in-depth simulator to fulfill your dreams of naval theme done right.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Phyriel