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You can tell a badly written story by the fact that no one knows wtf is going on because everything is vague, incomplete, incoherent, things contradict one another and so on. Just look at the forum - endless debates on "what the writer had in mind". A good writer writes what he has in mind, and then if you have a deep mind you get even more out of it. A bad writer writes a lot of mumbo jambo and throws a bunch of "deep" words in in order to create an appearance of depth and meaning. Positive example here is Tolkien - his works are the result of clear and powerful mind. You know who is fighting whom, why, and what are their goals. If you have a sophisticated mind, you can get out of it a lot more than someone who only sees battles and adventure. His works produce awe and clarity. PoE story has the opposite effect on mind.

 

 

So, that being said, can someone explain to me who is who in PoE because wiki is useless.

 

 

1. I supposedly promised something to Berath in PoE1. What exactly would that be and why is she still mentioning that? I played PoE1 a bit but I don't think I finished the storyline. I don't even know what Berath is about in any relevant way and as I said a wiki description of "oh that's a god of death / reincarnation / whatever" is by no means helpful in gameplay terms. These attributes are added to gods in some randomized pointless fashion, and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is).

 

2. What is Eothas doing? He wants to destroy the Wheel? Ok cool, and what does he want to achieve with that? I've seen countless pages written on this forum about that because no one understands anything (bad writing). So I'm supposed to make choices in an RPG game not knowing what it's all about? How can I side with or against Eothas if there is no story whatsoever? Gods don't explain anything because 'I'm only a Watcher so I don't need to know anything' (great writing), and Eothas also says "oh yea, you just let me do this thing and it's all gonna be great". Amazing approach, every justice system in the world should implement this. Forget witnesses and evidence, just go with the feeling and pick one side and rule in their favor.

 

3. What is Xoti about? Collecting souls in her lantern and trapping them there? Oh wait no, she's in fact freeing them! Spectacular writing, every totalitarian measure is introduced the same way - 'no no, we're not limiting your speech or freedom of movement, this is for freedom and protection!' Ok so what happens later? There are apparently some choices I can make with Xoti in the end, but what are those choices? Or do I need to let her trap souls whole game to find out in the end that she'll use them for some nefarious purpose? Why wouldn't I kill her right away and not risk it? And then I even read that, no matter what I tell her in the end, she might not listen to me. What?

 

4. What do I do with Eder? Oh that's right, I don't know, because I don't know who Eothas is and what he's doing. This guy fought against Eothas if I'm not wrong, and then if I'm not wrong it turned out that Eothas was doing something.. that's good? Whatever that is. And Xoti as a Priestess of Eothas is drooling all over this guy. Err, didn't he fight against her god, what am I missing here? Shouldn't she put Eder into the lantern?

 

 

 

Right now I'm leaning towards endgame choice "Eothas, destroy everything", but I have a feeling the writer would be back in PoE3 or PoE2 DLC's.

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You can tell a badly written story by the fact that no one knows wtf is going on because everything is vague, incomplete, incoherent, things contradict one another and so on. Just look at the forum - endless debates on "what the writer had in mind". A good writer writes what he has in mind, and then if you have a deep mind you get even more out of it. A bad writer writes a lot of mumbo jambo and throws a bunch of "deep" words in in order to create an appearance of depth and meaning. Positive example here is Tolkien - his works are the result of clear and powerful mind. You know who is fighting whom, why, and what are their goals. If you have a sophisticated mind, you can get out of it a lot more than someone who only sees battles and adventure. His works produce awe and clarity. PoE story has the opposite effect on mind.

 

 

So, that being said, can someone explain to me who is who in PoE because wiki is useless.

 

 

1. I supposedly promised something to Berath in PoE1. What exactly would that be and why is she still mentioning that? I played PoE1 a bit but I don't think I finished the storyline. I don't even know what Berath is about in any relevant way and as I said a wiki description of "oh that's a god of death / reincarnation / whatever" is by no means helpful in gameplay terms. These attributes are added to gods in some randomized pointless fashion, and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is).

 

Had you finished the first game, you would know that you had to make a promise to a god to reach the boss. And "and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is)." Is not bad writing- all the gods are massive hypocrites and are portrayed that way. It's even stated outright in the first game that despite being the goddess of justice, Woedica is the goddess who is most willing to break her own rules (just as Rymrgand wants to annihilate all souls- except the souls of his followers that sustain him- those he preserved forever, thus denying them the Nirvana they seek). 

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Near the end of Pillars of Eternity, you are in need of the assistance of the gods in order to reach the main antagonist in a sanctum called "Sun-in-Shadow." Each god had a quest for you to gain their favor and had a desired course of action for you to take with all of the souls that were being confiscated by the main antagonist for use in empowering Woedica (one of the other gods).

 

If you chose the "Fair and Balanced" premade story, then the game operates under the assumption that your character made a deal with Berath to release all of the souls back into The Wheel (so they can be recycled and given to new children). This results in the children born without souls so far (the Hollowborn) eventually all dying off and the world returning to normal.

 

The Wheel is the name given to the process by which souls are reused in Eora. When an individual dies, their soul goes to the In-Between, there it lingers until it is rotated to a new body (a new infant birth). The reused soul remembers nothing about its previous lives but carries on as if it were a brand new soul in a brand new body for the first time. (Unless that soul is a Watcher, in which case it recalls memories of its past lives, something you experience in the first game). This process is called the rotation of "The Wheel."

 

The dilemma is that each time The Wheel rotates, a bit of each soul is lost in the transition, resulting in souls gradually splitting apart and weakening, like the slow march of entropic death on the people of Eora. Eothas seeks to destroy The Wheel thus ending this endless cycle of entropy and allowing souls to resume their natural course of existence.

 

Xoti is "harvesting" souls in her lantern so she can eventually release them to be guided into the afterlife naturally. As stated above, a soul is supposed to enter the In-Between upon death but sometimes this does not happen, a soul gets "lost" for whatever reason. Xoti's purpose is to guide these lost souls to the In-Between (usually done through luminous adra) so they can be returned to The Wheel rather than lingering lost for eternity.

 

Eder is a farmer and a believer in Eothas (in the first game, whether or not he maintains his faith in the second game depends on your choices as the Watcher or the pregame state you selected). He joined the battle in Dyrwood against St. Waidwen who was a mortal embodiment of Eothas because he wasn't convinced that Waidwen was Eothas and, even if he was, he seemed to be acting contrary to what Eder expected Eothas to act like. (The god of life, rebirth and light waging a war?) This resulted in the death of Waidwen and the subsequent silence (presumed death) of Eothas.

 

Through the course of the first game, you eventually discover that it was, in fact, Eothas and that there was a lot more going on behind the curtain. (In short, Eothas was trying to end the false tyranny of the gods). He is apparently continuing this campaign but in a different way in game 2.

 

I'm sort of baffled that you seem so vehemently against the writing in this game when it's never really been that confusing to me. I hope this helps.

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(Unless that soul is a Watcher, in which case it recalls memories of its past lives, something you experience in the first game).

Great post, but this part isn't true - it's Awakened folks who recall their past lives, not Watchers. It's possible to be Awakened and not a Watcher (Aloth, Maneha, Freyol), a Watcher but not Awakened (Adaryc of the Iron Flail), or an Awakened Watcher (Maerwald, the PC).

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(Unless that soul is a Watcher, in which case it recalls memories of its past lives, something you experience in the first game).

Great post, but this part isn't true - it's Awakened folks who recall their past lives, not Watchers. It's possible to be Awakened and not a Watcher (Aloth, Maneha, Freyol), a Watcher but not Awakened (Adaryc of the Iron Flail), or an Awakened Watcher (Maerwald, the PC).

 

Thank you for the clarification. I knew there was a distinction but for some reason it didn't register when I was trying to explain it, glad someone was around to set it straight.

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And "and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is)." Is not bad writing- all the gods are massive hypocrites and are portrayed that way. It's even stated outright in the first game that despite being the goddess of justice, Woedica is the goddess who is most willing to break her own rules (just as Rymrgand wants to annihilate all souls- except the souls of his followers that sustain him- those he preserved forever, thus denying them the Nirvana they seek). 

 

 

All gods being massive hypocrites and their attributes having nothing to do with how their act is.. *drum roll* .. is bad writing. :)

 

The attributes of the gods are not fancy letters on their robes. They reflect their personalities. You don't read Greek mythology and then about how Athena was a pupil with "special needs" in school. Either gods really do have some attribute, or others believe they do, and thus they are considered a "god of x", but here neither is the case.

 

 

 

The dilemma is that each time The Wheel rotates, a bit of each soul is lost in the transition, resulting in souls gradually splitting apart and weakening, like the slow march of entropic death on the people of Eora. Eothas seeks to destroy The Wheel thus ending this endless cycle of entropy and allowing souls to resume their natural course of existence.

 

Alright, thanks. So tl;dr version is that Eothas is a sort of a good guy who is trying to destroy the Wheel, or at least he's better than the others. If I remember correctly, in the end you can convince him to destroy Eora as well, although he doesn't like that idea (which makes me like him less. Still, that means there's at least one "good" / semi-good god.

 

As for Eder, I suppose I'm being too harsh on him because he's just a farmboy. What does he knows of the gods. He thinks "god of life and rebirth.. oh that must mean he wants everyone to live.. but then what can be reborn uh.. my head hurts." and "rebirth hmm.. does that include destruction of one world and creation of another.. ah I should lay off metaphysics and go tend my fields" and furthermore "oh god of life, so he must like the necromancers because they make sure things are always alive.. sort of".  Ah Eder.. you are a fine punching bag as pure Fighter, just let the others do the thinking.

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All gods being massive hypocrites and their attributes having nothing to do with how their act is.. *drum roll* .. is bad writing. :)

 

The attributes of the gods are not fancy letters on their robes. They reflect their personalities. You don't read Greek mythology and then about how Athena was a pupil with "special needs" in school. Either gods really do have some attribute, or others believe they do, and thus they are considered a "god of x", but here neither is the case.

 

Um how is it bad writing? If the gods in Pillars of Eternity are different to what you think the gods should be, its not bad writing. The whole point of the first game is learning that the order of being your character lives in is one giant hoax created by power-hungry ancients from a civilization long gone. These gods are not really gods, they are synthetic beings created by that ancient race to rule over mortals, yet they still act like hypocritical children.

The idea may not be extremely original, but calling it bad writing is unfair. Its different writing and different story, which has nothing to do with Greeks or Tolkien or whatever.

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Emissary Tar: At last, someone who looks like they could be of some assistance! The assorted boobs and dimwits around here have been of very little help.
 
Charname: I’m afraid you have mistaken us for someone else. I’m Dimwit, this is my good friend Boob, and behind me you’ll find Brainless and Moron. How do you do? 
 

 

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And "and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is)." Is not bad writing- all the gods are massive hypocrites and are portrayed that way. It's even stated outright in the first game that despite being the goddess of justice, Woedica is the goddess who is most willing to break her own rules (just as Rymrgand wants to annihilate all souls- except the souls of his followers that sustain him- those he preserved forever, thus denying them the Nirvana they seek). 

 

 

All gods being massive hypocrites and their attributes having nothing to do with how their act is.. *drum roll* .. is bad writing. :)

 

The attributes of the gods are not fancy letters on their robes. They reflect their personalities. You don't read Greek mythology and then about how Athena was a pupil with "special needs" in school. Either gods really do have some attribute, or others believe they do, and thus they are considered a "god of x", but here neither is the case.

 

 

 

The dilemma is that each time The Wheel rotates, a bit of each soul is lost in the transition, resulting in souls gradually splitting apart and weakening, like the slow march of entropic death on the people of Eora. Eothas seeks to destroy The Wheel thus ending this endless cycle of entropy and allowing souls to resume their natural course of existence.

 

Alright, thanks. So tl;dr version is that Eothas is a sort of a good guy who is trying to destroy the Wheel, or at least he's better than the others. If I remember correctly, in the end you can convince him to destroy Eora as well, although he doesn't like that idea (which makes me like him less. Still, that means there's at least one "good" / semi-good god.

 

As for Eder, I suppose I'm being too harsh on him because he's just a farmboy. What does he knows of the gods. He thinks "god of life and rebirth.. oh that must mean he wants everyone to live.. but then what can be reborn uh.. my head hurts." and "rebirth hmm.. does that include destruction of one world and creation of another.. ah I should lay off metaphysics and go tend my fields" and furthermore "oh god of life, so he must like the necromancers because they make sure things are always alive.. sort of".  Ah Eder.. you are a fine punching bag as pure Fighter, just let the others do the thinking.

 

Yes, well Athena is a "real" god, and Eoran gods are just giant soul-robots created by the Engwithans. They have absolutely no bearing on the actual thing they claim to be a god of- i.e. justice existed long before Woedica, and will continue to exist long after she's gone. The only god that seems to be actually connected to something is Berath, because she is in charge of the big reincarnation machine that the Engwithans built. Discovering that the gods are impostors is literally the plot of PoE1, so if you didn't finish it, you missed it. 

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Um how is it bad writing? If the gods in Pillars of Eternity are different to what you think the gods should be, its not bad writing. 

 

This has nothing to do with how I think gods should be or are. I'm not talking about real life theology here which is why I'm not using capital letters. I expect from every story to be internally consistent. Someone being a god of "justice" while no human considers it to be so, nor does the god act like it, probably does not even consider himself/herself/itself (add your favorite politically correct pronoun) to be so, and yet the wiki/game states "god of justice" - that's hogwash. You can call it poetic liberty. I'll quote Xoti and say hogwash. If humans were suddenly able to fly in PoE and there was no half-decent explanation (like in Superman), I would also say hogwash. 

 

You're basically saying that if it looks like a duck, moves like a duck, sounds like a duck, tastes like a duck - it can in fact be a rocket because not all ducks need to be the way I think ducks should be. And to that I say - hogwash.

 

I don't like when people make excuses of bad writing, and in fact there are plenty of real life examples of this. Sometimes a paragraph in a religious text will be complete nonsense, or perhaps an allegory, but there will always be people who will say 'no no, it's not bad writing, this is eternal truth and we must stick to it'. No, it's bad writing that's what it is.

 

 

Yes, well Athena is a "real" god, and Eoran gods are just giant soul-robots created by the Engwithans. They have absolutely no bearing on the actual thing they claim to be a god of- i.e. justice existed long before Woedica, and will continue to exist long after she's gone. 

 

 

When I open PoE wiki I don't see "An entity that claims to be x". I see "Z, god of x". So it's bad writing. Either on wiki, in game, or both.

 

And as for a god being a god of justice or something else, that doesn't mean justice did not exist before that god, it means that an entity embodies some quality to such an extent that you can use the term "god of.. x". 

 

 

 

Anyway, I think this discussion is kind of a dead end. I got answers and that's all. 

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Yes, well Athena is a "real" god, and Eoran gods are just giant soul-robots created by the Engwithans. They have absolutely no bearing on the actual thing they claim to be a god of- i.e. justice existed long before Woedica, and will continue to exist long after she's gone. The only god that seems to be actually connected to something is Berath, because she is in charge of the big reincarnation machine that the Engwithans built. Discovering that the gods are impostors is literally the plot of PoE1, so if you didn't finish it, you missed it. 

 

I used to believe they were like AI after POE1, but not after Deadfire. Now I believe they were the leaders of the Engwithans god project who powered up themselves with weaker souls for a specific purpose which is tied to "strong souls" and at some point they abandoned that purpose to just enjoy their "godhood". They all had their own idea for that "specific purpose".

Azarhal, Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order of Eternity.


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Um how is it bad writing? If the gods in Pillars of Eternity are different to what you think the gods should be, its not bad writing. 

 

This has nothing to do with how I think gods should be or are. I'm not talking about real life theology here which is why I'm not using capital letters. I expect from every story to be internally consistent. Someone being a god of "justice" while no human considers it to be so, nor does the god act like it, probably does not even consider himself/herself/itself (add your favorite politically correct pronoun) to be so, and yet the wiki/game states "god of justice" - that's hogwash. You can call it poetic liberty. I'll quote Xoti and say hogwash. If humans were suddenly able to fly in PoE and there was no half-decent explanation (like in Superman), I would also say hogwash. 

 

You're basically saying that if it looks like a duck, moves like a duck, sounds like a duck, tastes like a duck - it can in fact be a rocket because not all ducks need to be the way I think ducks should be. And to that I say - hogwash.

 

I don't like when people make excuses of bad writing, and in fact there are plenty of real life examples of this. Sometimes a paragraph in a religious text will be complete nonsense, or perhaps an allegory, but there will always be people who will say 'no no, it's not bad writing, this is eternal truth and we must stick to it'. No, it's bad writing that's what it is.

 

 

Yes, well Athena is a "real" god, and Eoran gods are just giant soul-robots created by the Engwithans. They have absolutely no bearing on the actual thing they claim to be a god of- i.e. justice existed long before Woedica, and will continue to exist long after she's gone. 

 

 

When I open PoE wiki I don't see "An entity that claims to be x". I see "Z, god of x". So it's bad writing. Either on wiki, in game, or both.

 

And as for a god being a god of justice or something else, that doesn't mean justice did not exist before that god, it means that an entity embodies some quality to such an extent that you can use the term "god of.. x". 

 

 

 

Anyway, I think this discussion is kind of a dead end. I got answers and that's all. 

 

1) They are not the "gods" of anything. They were literally just stated to be such and pretend to be such. The Engwithans *made* all the gods, then went around telling everybody "This is the God of Justice, that's the God of Artifice..." etc. They are *actually* just complex soul constructs made to embody different Engwithan concepts and philosophies. Woedica is only the God of Justice because she was proclaimed as such--and the "justice" she embodies is *whatever the Engwithan concept of justice was*. Since she's not actually the god of "Justice" in any sort of objective universe sense, her "justice" is only going to seem as such if you accept the Engiwithan cultural idea of justice. If you are not Engwithan and do not see justice as they did, then Woedica may not seem very just to you. This is not bad writing; this is complex writing.

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Are you... referring to a wiki made by fans as a go-to source material? Seriously? 

The game never told you that a god of justice should be just that. The whole point of the story is telling you otherwise, that its a hoax that races of Eora believe in. And its just that, thats the story.

Edited by Aridea
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Emissary Tar: At last, someone who looks like they could be of some assistance! The assorted boobs and dimwits around here have been of very little help.
 
Charname: I’m afraid you have mistaken us for someone else. I’m Dimwit, this is my good friend Boob, and behind me you’ll find Brainless and Moron. How do you do? 
 

 

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You mean, a wiki that is done by random people on a web forum contains inaccuracies? Who knew? 

 

But honestly, it seems that the problem here is not bad writing, but bad reading comprehension. 

 

Aha, so wiki is wrong, ingame text is wrong, but writing is good, we just don't see it anywhere except in secret writer's notes in his bedroom. That's your story?

 

Also, if you're writing for a computer game, and no one comprehends your writing (as seen on wiki, as seen on this forum) then that's bad writing. In fact, just look at this thread. Few of you are correcting each other, and this one guy is saying "I used to believe.." "but now I believe..". What is the writing for then? I can just as well say "well I believe Eothas is a lizard and Eora is flat". Hogwash.

 

Btw, wiki isn't done by random people. Wiki is done by people most invested into the game, and most familiar with the lore. If these people get it all wrong as you say, then the writing is bad. It's like saying "I'm a great math teacher" and after 4 yrs the best students in your class can't do 2+2x3. 

 

 

I comprehended hogwash and saw it as hogwash. You saw hogwash and are now contemplating what great thing could it in fact be, even if you have to break the laws of logic, even if you had to add interpolations.

 

 

Are you... referring to a wiki made by fans as a go-to source material? Seriously? 

 

See above.

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You mean, a wiki that is done by random people on a web forum contains inaccuracies? Who knew? 

 

But honestly, it seems that the problem here is not bad writing, but bad reading comprehension. 

 

This. If you don't understand what Eothas is trying to do and what effect it will have on the world even with all of the in-dialogue lore tooltips, you can literally ask Berath to lay it all out for you step-by-step during the gods sequence after Ashen Maw. You're only going to understand the lore as much as you're willing to dive into it. If you're the type of person who always assumes the worst possible outcome or the most insidious possible explanation (Xoti ushering souls to the beyond is tyranny? WTH?), you're probably the type of person who sees "bad writing" everywhere. 

 

Every single thing OP listed has a logical explanation clearly presented in-game. But CRPGs don't always serve them up on a silver platter - the player usually has to work their way through the narrative to uncover the plot. They have to ask questions, demonstrate intellectual curiosity, READ, EXPLORE. It's not a passive experience.

 

Also, OP - you keep mentioning that there are "endless" threads in these forums wherein people are complaining because they can't understand the writing. Could you please link us to them? Thanks.

 

 

 

 

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And "and thus for example Woedica seems to be a goddess of justice but she doesn't act like it at all, not in the least (bad writing is what it is)." Is not bad writing- all the gods are massive hypocrites and are portrayed that way. It's even stated outright in the first game that despite being the goddess of justice, Woedica is the goddess who is most willing to break her own rules (just as Rymrgand wants to annihilate all souls- except the souls of his followers that sustain him- those he preserved forever, thus denying them the Nirvana they seek).

 

 

The attributes of the gods are not fancy letters on their robes. They reflect their personalities. You don't read Greek mythology and then about how Athena was a pupil with "special needs" in school. Either gods really do have some attribute, or others believe they do, and thus they are considered a "god of x", but here neither is the case.

 

Athena and all the other Gods in Greek Mythology are hypocrities who are all portrayed as whimsical beings whose thinking humans can't comprehend.

 

Lets take for example one of Medusa's origin stories, where she was originally priestess of Athena, who is said to be so beatiful that Poseidon got obsessed over her and eventually rape her because she refused to break her wows of celibaty which she had given to Athena. Because Athena could not take revenge against Poseidon, she decided to give her priestess as "gift" to ensure that nobody can do her harm in future and changed her to creature which will turn anybody looking her as stone. And then some time in future people had started to fear said creature and call her Medusa, Athena decided to help Perseus to kill Medusa so that he could get woman that he desired.

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A guy names William Shakesman once said 'Brevity is the soul of it'.

Writers should strive to be as concise as possible unless the character calls for otherwise. Such as our old friend Reginald 'Longtooth' Worthington III.

nowt

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I strongly disagree but I do think the story and worldbuilding can be extremely overwhelming at times. I really enjoy the themes and scope of the Pillars of Eternity universe and I don't think it is too difficult to grasp if you give yourself enough time to take it all in. A lot of the questions you pose are answered for the first time in POE 2 as you progress through the game. Maybe I can help though.

 

MAJOR POE 1 and 2 Spoilers below! 

 

 1) It is understandable if you are confused here if you did not complete the story of the first game or do not remember it well. The story of the first Pillars of Eternity dealt with the Hollowborn crisis; Children were being born without having what we would call a soul. They were like empty husks. The reason for this was believed to be a curse from the god Eothas, who had inhabited the body of human named Waidwen and began a rebellion to reveal the truth of the gods and end their control over everyone on the planet. The rebellion was ended after intervention from the other gods, and superstition led to people blaming the births of soulless children on this rebellion. In truth, it is discovered in the first game that the gods were created by an ancient race of humans called Engwithans, using a science called animancy. The Engwithans had mastered the sciences and wanted to find proof of gods, but they failed to find any. Using animancy (which is basically a kind of soul manipulation science), they created their own gods with which to unite all Kith (the playable races) under. The engwithans sacrificed thousands of souls to a machine that melded them together into 11 different gods that would guide mortals and give life meaning. They created the cycle of rebirth, another complex animancy machine to allow for souls to be reincarnated. Throughout the ages, the Engwithans and their sciences disappeared primarily due to time and the obfuscation and manipulation of an organization called "the Leaden Key" which works to preserve the secrets of the gods and Engwithans and preventing Kith from understanding the true history. The main antagonist of the first game is a wizard named Thaos, who retains the memories of his original self throughout all of his reincarnations, as an an ancient Engwithan that leads the Leaden Key and was present when the gods were born. He is partnered with the god Woedica, who conspires with him to keep all Kith and Eora (the world that the games take place on) in the dark. The actual promise you are referring to in the intro of POE 2 has to do with what the Watcher decided to do with all of the souls of the Hollowborn. Berath (god of death and reincarnation) wishes for you to return the souls to the reincarnation cycle. Hylea (God of the Sky, Maternity, Beauty, and the Arts) wishes for you to return to the souls into the bodies of which they were intended. Rymrgand (God of Entropy and Famine) requests that you destroy the souls and end their existence. Galawain (God of the Hunt and Survival) wishes for you to use the souls to strengthen only the Dyrwood (location of POE 1). Skaen (God of Rebellion and Schemes) wishes for you to use the souls to empower Woedica even though that's kinda what you were fighting against in the first place. Wael (God of Mysteries and Illusions) wishes for you to just randomly scatter the souls just for fun. 

 

2. Eothas is very vague on his plans until you meet him at Magran's Teeth. The other gods were unaware of his intentions but feared that whatever he had in mind was not in their best interests. As the Watcher, you are being entrusted to seek out Eothas and report to the other gods what you have learned. Eothas is the God of Light and Redemption, and is the god that cares the most for mortals (though Hylea also seems comparatively benevolent). As mentioned in the last paragraph, he inhabited the body of a human named Waidwen, attempting to reveal the truth of the gods and free Kith from being at the mercy of their whims. It did not work out for him. Between the two games, he inhabits the gigantic statue at Caed Nua (which was the castle ruled by the Watcher in the first game), destroying the castle and absorbing a piece of your soul. This is where the beginning of the 2nd game comes in, with Berath rescuing the remainder of your soul and tasking you with confronting Eothas. Eothas is traveling the Deadfire absorbing power from those big green crystals called Adra, which are somehow connected with soul energy and used in animancy. Eothas is also absorbing power from the souls around him, making himself strong enough to ultimately complete his goal. His ultimate goal is to destroy the Engwithan wheel of reincarnation, which will result in the gods losing much of their power, largely freeing Kith from their rule and forcing them to rely on each other. Eventually, both you and the gods realize that he is unstoppable, and it is up to you to reason with him. In your final confrontation with him, it is ultimately up to you to convince him of what the right thing to do is. You have a lot of options here, and the consequences are largely unknown but the ending slides do offer a little bit of information about the post-game. It is unknown what the gods will do in retaliation, but it seems as though some of them accept the eventuality if not somewhat siding with Eothas at the end. 

 

3. Xoti belongs to a religious organization called the Dawnstars that worships Eothas, and she specifically focuses on a manifestation of Eothas that she calls Gaun. Xoti believes that Gaun is the "rebirth" aspect of Eothas that is the statue that has returned to the Deadfire. She has been having dreams about what Eothas/Gaun is doing and believes it is her purpose to shepherd the souls that Gaun is leaving behind back to him so that they can be reborn. I have to admit I am personally unclear as to whether she is really doing anything with the lantern and exactly what is happening when you take her to interact with the adra. The souls seem to be following you rather than Xoti's lantern. She does have some dialogue with Eothas if you have her with you in your party when you encounter him at Magran's Teeth and at Ukaizo. He mostly focuses on all the good that the Dawnstars have been doing for their fellow mortals, and that mortals will look to kind hearted people like her for guidance in the future. 

 

4. Eder was actually a follower of Eothas, but his belief has been shaken after learning the truth about the gods in POE 1. He looks up to the Watcher and whatever you have to say can shape his mind within the game. 

 

A lot of POE 2 relies on choices you made in the first game and it is regretful that they don't provide you with enough information to understand the load state that you select to start a new character. However, you can learn quite a lot while playing the game and your second playthrough can give you much better insight into the lore of the world so that you can make better informed choices. I absolutely think that it is worth it, because the world of Pillars has a very grand and features interesting stories worth learning about, and the failure of Obsidian to properly prepare new players doesn't negate the quality of the writing. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

The writing is pretty good for a game - and in parts is superb. BTW some people would think that Tolkien is a pretty poor writer. His work is unbelievably simplistic, childish even.

I have a soft spot for LOR - mainly because nostalgia... But great writing.... Not a chance.

My main problems with the game are open world and combat related. But writing  - the devs are pretty good at that . There are a couple of stupid parts, mainly trying to shoehorn the watcher from game one into game 2 which doesn't work well. But other than that it's good even great in parts.

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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What I would like to seperate is quality of writing vs. over-arching narrative. 

I would agree that "story" of the Deadfire isn't very good - but writing - actual work done by writers under constrains and directions given to them is pretty darn good. You can't blame writers on lack of development, or engaging direction, because it is not something that game supports structually. 

Deadfire presents the lore and setting in an excellent way - it explores factions role and impact on the Deadfire, explores further God's and their relations with mortals. You get to know and understand Huana culture and history in an engaging way. 

But none of it is "story". That's I think, the impact of Josh being directly involved in molding overarching narrative. He is a great lead, with a special appreciation for history and culture, which made PoE world detailed, believable and engaging. But Deadfire is a history/culture lesson, rather then a story or adventure. 

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1 hour ago, Wormerine said:

What I would like to seperate is quality of writing vs. over-arching narrative. 

I would agree that "story" of the Deadfire isn't very good - but writing - actual work done by writers under constrains and directions given to them is pretty darn good. You can't blame writers on lack of development, or engaging direction, because it is not something that game supports structually. 

Deadfire presents the lore and setting in an excellent way - it explores factions role and impact on the Deadfire, explores further God's and their relations with mortals. You get to know and understand Huana culture and history in an engaging way. 

But none of it is "story". That's I think, the impact of Josh being directly involved in molding overarching narrative. He is a great lead, with a special appreciation for history and culture, which made PoE world detailed, believable and engaging. But Deadfire is a history/culture lesson, rather then a story or adventure. 

Unpopular opinion: the story was actually pretty good. Unfortunately it had three things working against it:

  1. the curse of being the middle part of a trilogy wherein you have neither the sexy, new story excitement of a part 1 nor the gratifying payoff of a part 3
  2. the audience's crazy expectations (see: 100 threads about how Deadfire sucked because we obviously were supposed to be able to kill Eothas, but then Obsidian doesn't know how to write because they didn't let us do that)
  3. as a continuation of 2, the antagonist was an "antagonist" rather than a "villain" (and clearly people aren't ok with that)

What did the Deadfire story do well?

  1. It exposed the plot twist that the Dyrwood had been played
  2. It continued the major themes of the first game (i.e. how far are you willing to go for what you believe)
  3. It set up the conflict for part 3 (now that you know the gods aren't real, and you know they are squabbling ineffective ***holes, do you save them or let kith figure it out aka do you become Thaos or do you become Iovara)
Edited by Achilles
censorship

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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1 hour ago, Achilles said:
  1. [...]
  2. the audience's crazy expectations (see: 100 threads about how Deadfire sucked because we obviously were supposed to be able to kill Eothas, but then Obsidian doesn't know how to write because they didn't let us do that)

This. A hundred times.

Also I'm sick and tired about people judging  the quality of writing when they have not one single qualification to be actually able to determine what's good or bad writing. "I didn't like it, therefore it has to be bad" is so common right now. Why is that?

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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1 hour ago, Achilles said:
  1. It set up the conflict for part 3 (now that you know the gods aren't real, and you know they are squabbling ineffective ***holes, do you save them or let kith figure it out aka do you become Thaos or do you become Iovara)

They are real aren't they? They talk to the character on Skype chat throughout the game. Berath brings you back to life. Pretty sure that they exist.

nowt

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7 hours ago, daven said:

They are real aren't they? They talk to the character on Skype chat throughout the game. Berath brings you back to life. Pretty sure that they exist.

"Now that you know that the gods are not divine beings/sources of moral or philosophical truth, but rather powerful emergent technologies created by the Engwithians (and therefore no better than Engwithans)"

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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On 2/25/2020 at 10:56 AM, daven said:

They are real aren't they? They talk to the character on Skype chat throughout the game. Berath brings you back to life. Pretty sure that they exist.

The problem/issue isn't that "the gods" don't exist.  The question is more along the lines of:

1. Are "the gods" really gods?

2. What is a "god" in the context of PoE?

 

The gods as we know them in PoE are immensely powerful beings constructed by the Engwithans.  And on that level, I suppose that one could consider them "gods".  But are they paragons of the concepts they espouse?  That seems rather questionable at times.

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