summoned weapon scaling issue

[Nague]

The summoned weapons have a scaling, but its a damage modifier like any other, not to the base weapon damage.

 

This means its much worse due to how damage modifiers work now.

[Nanomachin]

As far as I know summoned weapon enchantment works exactly like normal weapon enchantment, neither increases the base weapon damage.

[Nague]

hm yeah but for example the early summoned weapons do not scale properly like spells are apparently supposed to.

Normal weapons get replaced by uniques with a lot of added bonuses, its not just the enchantment bonus.

 

Older summoned weapons just get replaced by either uniques or better summoned weapons with perks like the lance.

[Tosho]

They suck and it noticeably hurts caster/melee hybrids. 

[Katarack21]

This has been a complaint of mine all throughout the beta, as well as the cast time for summoned weapons. I *really* wanted to play a caster/melee hybrid that used summoned weapons, but it's not really viable because they made summoned weapons suck.

[Zeitzbach]

The change to scaling is why pretty much all conjuration type are terrible atm. Even Druid Shapeshift suffer from the same thing. If you're a weapon user atm, you have to find a good legendary gear with + damage scaling or extra bonus damage proc or you're extremely weak for a damage dealer.

 

I wish the sub-class get actual bonus to make conjuration/shapeshift useful.

[Teacher]

I'm guessing from a gameplay perspective conjured weapons are not meant to be perfectly on par with unique upgradeable weapons considering the fact that you don't really need to find and upgrade the spells. You just hit a level and you got access to it etc.

 

Not that all unique weapons are hidden behind incredible challenges but there's usually a cost associated with having them reach their full potential and customizing them, not to mention you need to know where they are or which quest rewards what without going all out metagaming. You may never see a unique pike during a playthrough for example but Citzal's Spirit Lance will always be there guaranteed.

 

Now if there were some unique spell books hidden out there with fancy conjured weapons in them... that would be something.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Teacher

[Tosho]

I'm guessing from a gameplay perspective conjured weapons are not meant to be perfectly on par with unique upgradeable weapons considering the fact that you don't really need to find and upgrade the spells. You just hit a level and you got access to it etc.

 

Not that all unique weapons are hidden behind incredible challenges but there's usually a cost associated with having them reach their full potential and customizing them, not to mention you need to know where they are or which quest rewards what without going all out metagaming. You may never see a unique pike during a playthrough for example but Citzal's Spirit Lance will always be there guaranteed.

 

Now if there were some unique spell books hidden out there with fancy conjured weapons in them... that would be something.

 

Well I guess the drawback is they don't last forever, require a hefty cast time, and take very valuable ability points for the high lvl ones. The drawback shouldn't be that they are 100% worthless.

 

Trap options shouldn't be in the T8/T9 brackets.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Tosho

[Teacher]

 

Well I guess the drawback is they don't last forever, require a hefty cast time, and take very valuable ability points for the high lvl ones. The drawback shouldn't be that they are 100% worthless.

 

Trap options shouldn't be in the T8/T9 brackets.

 

 

Have you seen what these spells bring to the table?

Lvl 8 Blackbow for example lasts 67 seconds (int 15) with a cast time of 2.4 seconds (faster than 3.4 recovery time for actually shooting it with 15 dex), that terrifies enemies and has foe jump.

Lvl 7 warding staff, last about 46 seconds and still has faster cast time than the recovery of an actual attack that pushes and hobbles enemies every hit.

Lvl 5 spirit lance, lasts 42 seconds and is a piercing weapon that does addtional crushing damage AoE explosion (close to full damage) every hit.

Lvl 3 blights, scepter level damage lasts 45 secs, cycling elemental damage in an AoE

lvl 1 staff, 48 secs, faster again, drains 20% damage as health from what I can tell

All of these scale up to legendary at lvl 19.

 

The only one that doesn't do something useful is lvl 9 spell but even that lets you summon a legendary greatsword and legendary morningstar along with a legendary breastplate. Needs some type of effect to make things interesting for a Lvl 9 spell though. Maybe remove the armor action speed penalty as well.

 

Considering how long fights last in this game, you will maybe go through 2 castings of weapon spells tops, not to mention again they can be cast faster than regular attacks once you pick up the feats for it. Besides, by the time they run out, half your protection spells will also have run out, so it's casting time regardless.

 

This a pure mage we are talking about that can deal decent damage without any gear needed. If you think these are 6 spells of varying levels are taking too many ability points somehow, grab Katreen's spellbook which is a bounty reward you'll run into if you are doing bounties. Wanna switch things up, grab the 8k gold costing spellbook (vaporous wizardy) from Dark Cupboard (a store you'll most likely not miss early on) that gives +1 casts to all your spell levels.

 

Apart from the level 9 one we are asking too much out of these spells in my opinion. And calling them 100% worthless? What you want them to one shot the entire encounter? Stun lock everyone?

Edited May 19, 2018 by Teacher

[Tosho]

 

 

Well I guess the drawback is they don't last forever, require a hefty cast time, and take very valuable ability points for the high lvl ones. The drawback shouldn't be that they are 100% worthless.

 

Trap options shouldn't be in the T8/T9 brackets.

 

 

Have you seen what these spells bring to the table?

Lvl 8 Blackbow for example lasts 67 seconds (int 15) with a cast time of 2.4 seconds (faster than 3.4 recovery time for actually shooting it with 15 dex), that terrifies enemies and has foe jump.

Lvl 7 warding staff, last about 46 seconds and still has faster cast time than the recovery of an actual attack that pushes and hobbles enemies every hit.

Lvl 5 spirit lance, lasts 42 seconds and is a piercing weapon that does addtional crushing damage AoE explosion (close to full damage) every hit.

Lvl 3 blights, scepter level damage lasts 45 secs, cycling elemental damage in an AoE

lvl 1 staff, 48 secs, faster again, drains 20% damage as health from what I can tell

All of these scale up to legendary at lvl 19.

 

The only one that doesn't do something useful is lvl 9 spell but even that lets you summon a legendary greatsword and legendary morningstar along with a legendary breastplate. Needs some type of effect to make things interesting for a Lvl 9 spell though. Maybe remove the armor action speed penalty as well.

 

Considering how long fights last in this game, you will maybe go through 2 castings of weapon spells tops, not to mention again they can be cast faster than regular attacks once you pick up the feats for it. Besides, by the time they run out, half your protection spells will also have run out, so it's casting time regardless.

 

This a pure mage we are talking about that can deal decent damage without any gear needed. If you think these are 6 spells of varying levels are taking too many ability points somehow, grab Katreen's spellbook which is a bounty reward you'll run into if you are doing bounties. Wanna switch things up, grab the 8k gold costing spellbook (vaporous wizardy) from Dark Cupboard (a store you'll most likely not miss early on) that gives +1 casts to all your spell levels.

 

Apart from the level 9 one we are asking too much out of these spells in my opinion. And calling them 100% worthless? What you want them to one shot the entire encounter? Stun lock everyone?

 

 

You kill much slower using those than just using your spells or unique weapons....

 

Whats the point.

[Teacher]

 

You kill much slower using those than just using your spells or unique weapons....

 

Whats the point.

 

 

Well, what's the point of any weapon when a missile salvo can do 28-50*18 AoE corrosive damage or wilting wind can AoE hit 120-150 and weaken everyone? Even Tekehu is doing over 120 damage in a friendly AoE with ocean burst. Just grab 4 wizards and something to draw enemy attention for 5 seconds, give them all chain lightning and you are all set. You can't exactly compare the nuking power of a wizard to martial power of a wizard. It's not his role to begin with. That's not the point.

 

Compared to the power levels of the existing unique weapons, summoned weapons are not leagues behind and utterly worthless. Plus, as a side bonus, you don't need to know exactly where the weapon to complete your build is to get a conjuring wizard rolling. That's the point.

[dunehunter]

Yeah scale is an issue, but that’s because we get good quality weapons too early. I get Whisper of the endless path at lvl 5, and upgrade it to superb at lvl 8, but meanwhile then quality of summon weapons is behind my real weapons. They should just remove some early accessible weapons.

[Maxzero]

Yeah scale is an issue, but that’s because we get good quality weapons too early. I get Whisper of the endless path at lvl 5, and upgrade it to superb at lvl 8, but meanwhile then quality of summon weapons is behind my real weapons. They should just remove some early accessible weapons.

That seems more like a meta knowledge issue with the sword more then anything.

[Lokithecat]

Summoned weapons all have the 'xxxx scales with Power level' on the stats... anyone try Empowering one, just to compare / see?

[JerekKruger]

Have you seen what these spells bring to the table?

 

Have you seen what regular unique weapons bring to the table? Because they're way better than summoned, take precisely zero seconds to ready for combat and don't require an Ability point or a spell cast. Summoned weapons really are miles behind in every way.

[JerekKruger]

Summoned weapons all have the 'xxxx scales with Power level' on the stats... anyone try Empowering one, just to compare / see?

 

They don't scale with Power Level, they scale with Character Level. Obsidian have confirmed that this is working as intended and its because they didn't want multiclass characters to feel like they lost out when using summoned weapons. I think this is a mistake.

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

You kill much slower using those than just using your spells or unique weapons....

 

Whats the point.

 

 

Well, what's the point of any weapon when a missile salvo can do 28-50*18 AoE corrosive damage or wilting wind can AoE hit 120-150 and weaken everyone? Even Tekehu is doing over 120 damage in a friendly AoE with ocean burst. Just grab 4 wizards and something to draw enemy attention for 5 seconds, give them all chain lightning and you are all set. You can't exactly compare the nuking power of a wizard to martial power of a wizard. It's not his role to begin with. That's not the point.

 

Compared to the power levels of the existing unique weapons, summoned weapons are not leagues behind and utterly worthless. Plus, as a side bonus, you don't need to know exactly where the weapon to complete your build is to get a conjuring wizard rolling. That's the point.

 

 

None of the weapon are as good as the better unique weapon though. The 47k Arquebus has +50% burn. The bow has AoE-on-crit. There are are sabers with extra crit or extra ice damage.

 

Pretty much anything that just have base damage but no additional final damage bonus/resets are terrible, which also happens to be every freebie weapon in the game. Conjuration, Shapeshift claw (without talent. Still meh with them), Cipher freaking T8 daggers.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Elric Galad]

Usual issue in RPG :

Balancing Scaling Unarmed Monk damages

Balancing Scaling Shapeshift Damages

Balancing Scaling Pet Damages

Balancing Scaling Weapon Damages

 

It was an issue in PoE1 (a bit less for monk).

And for some reason, as they changed the weapon system, it seems that they have to balance these again in PoE2. 

[Boeroer]

Well, I think most summoned weapons themselves are totally fine now since they scale with level (no need to spend resources on enchantments) and all have some unique property - just like unique weapons. Even the Long Pain is unique because it lets you use melee abilites in ranged combat. The only exception is Firebrand which is really bad (not as a regular Great Sword but as a summoned weapon you have to spend an ability point and a spell use for).

 

And they should reduce the casting time further.

 

How I'd "balance" summoned weapons:

 

• What do I pay?
  • I give an ability point at lvl-up
  • a spell use per encounter.
  • I "waste" casting time
• What do I get?
  • For the ability point I get a scaling weapon that needs no money nor enchantment resources. Seems fair.
  • for the spell use I get a unique effect on that weapon that can be very helpful (draining, AoE damage, pushing whatever)
  • for the casting time I "waste" I get... well nothing. So please keep it short.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Zeitzbach]

They really just need to add more talent to spec into special weapons. Right now, we only have the faster cast time. The rest are generic.

 

how about a special T6 or T7 talent or something that "adds an extra keyword to conjured weapon based on type".

Or "Gains X inspiration for conjuring weapon"

 

so on and so on.

[Boeroer]

Or scale them with Power Level rather than class level. That would make more sense. Like a lot more sense. Picking Conjurer would make sense, going single class conjurer would make sense, it would even outbalance stuff like monk/wizard with summoned weapons a bit (using AoE attacks with Swift Flurry or Intruments of Pain with Citzal's Spirit Lance...).

[Tosho]

Hold up let me summon that completely useless Enchanted Armory because I was too cheap to click on a vendor for far better items instead of 1 shotting everything with Salvo or Meteor.

 

lol.

 

Buff the T8/T9 ones substantially, at the least.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Tosho