Gromnir

we felt compelled to google "tsundere." ... dorks. HA! Good Fun! Better just visit TVtropes ... anybody ever heard o' katherina minola? lord only knows how the initially adversarial female character became an anime trope. we gots our curmudgeon going on at full force... old AND dismissive. is pleasantly warm. HA! Good Fun!

you kinda get your wish. when we posted our link yesterday, we recalled seeing a familiar name on the "character" list for tor. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Satele_Shan HA! Good Fun! Cool I wonder if she has Jennifer Hale's voice utilizing the most arcane methods (we googled jennifer hale and imdb) we found your answer. http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0354937/ oh, and vol is managing his once yearly feat o' being mostly correct. irenicus, for example, were more complex than most gamers suspected. parallels 'tween macbeth and irenicus were substantial. however, most gamers never recognized bioware efforts to make irenicus More than an elf wizard, mad with power. gaider and biowarians recognized that the failure to get across the intended depth were the writer, developers and voice actor fault. lack o' clarity were subjective. Gromnir saw and bio intended, but what were obvious to us were hidden from a great many people. the fact that so many people didn't see/realize the parallels were proof enough for the biowarians that they hadn't been near as clear as they had hoped. oh, and the irenicus~macbeth stuff is far more substantial than is the kreia-were-only-testing theory of oblarg's. one cannot take out a single line o' optional dialogue from bg2 and makes the macbeth stuff untenable. 'cause you know, writers love it when their characters is misunderstood, so they always hide the most important character development. *snort* HA! Good Fun!

... we thought you were kaiser souzai. if you is tim, we knows more than a couple female gamers who didn't like your explanation regarding inequality 'tween male and female characters in arcanum, and your rather undiplomatic response to their legitimate concerns. HA! Good Fun!

you kinda get your wish. when we posted our link yesterday, we recalled seeing a familiar name on the "character" list for tor. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Satele_Shan HA! Good Fun!

*chuckle* introduce you to another word... hypocrite. as has been noted numerous times 'round these parts, our writing style is a putz detector. once folks give up arguing a point and instead bemoan our style, we know the kinda folks we is dealing with. as you yourself become repetitious repeat and go circular, you complain that Gromnir is doing so... but at least we stay on-topic, no? is obie who apparently ain't interested in reasonable discourse, and am gonna suggest that retreat to such childishness is hardly exemplary rhetoric, eh? we might post like a 5-year old (HA!) but is not us who is acting like one in the present instance. oh, and clarity is as much dependent on the audience as the speaker. author must needs tailor to audience to be clear. how we speaks to a group o' attorneys 'bout the public forum doctrine is not how we would be making clear to obsidian boardies or a group o' the aforementioned 5-year old. success o' an author in being clear is very much subjective and dependent on the audience. sure, given the nature o' language it is unlikely that an author will ever achieve perfect clarity, but is hardly unreasonable to looks to a sampling o' the audience to be determining if the author were as clear as you thinks. if numerous folks in this thread, drew (the guy commissioned to write the revan book) and lucasarts all see different than obie, then the suggestion that your excerpt were as clear as you suggest is very much called into question. and the most straightforward explanation is not gonna come from an optional line o' dialogue. most straightforward is not gonna be hidden where only some might see it. "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost. But in you

Also, I'm quite aware of the meaning of "irony," and it's even more ironic that you, of all people, would attempt to criticize someone over literacy. well you not seem to know what a self-contradiction is neither, but we will concede that it is seeming ironic that one who posts as Gromnir would question a personages understanding o' definitions... but is not genuine ironic to anybody who has posted here for more than a few weeks. *shrug* regardless, you clear weren't invoking irony earlier.... which is neither ironic nor self-contradictory. HA! Good Fun! ps am seeing where a poor reading could lead to a claim o' self-contradiction. however, you perhaps missed the word "clear" in our reply. weight o' popular belief does not make you wrong. however, if the kreia meaning were as clear as you suggest, there would be no popular weight to fight 'gainst. 'course if you didn't misread, then you have no excuse and am stumped by your misunderstanding.

It's set in Zion National Park. having been to zion, we applaud the efforts to replicate. other than the lack o' trees (there is some surprisingly dense forested areas in the park,) the obsinaties did an excellent job o' replicating zion in a playable game environment. we never expected an exact copy, but zion were quite familiar to us. 'course it is kinda sad that the best part o' honest hearts were the digital landscape. still haven't worked up the desire to actual play lonesome road. owb were quirky and fun, but fo:nv has been kinda a tough slog for Gromnir. the main thing working in favor o' fo:nv playability has been the fact that it has been the only game intown, so-to-speak, for quite some time. fo:nv is understandably story-lite given the sandbox nature of the game, but the gameplay became very repetitive very quickly for us. didn't play much different at level 8 as level 18... or level 28 for that matter. cazadores were probable the only critter that made us needs change tactics. no easy 150 meter iron sights head-shots followed by 2 meter vats kills for anything that managed to somehow gets close. am understanding that lonesome road utilizes cheese spawn tactics to increase the challenge factor, yes? *groan* dunno. were little in fo:nv that were surprising... other than arcade's seeming outta the blue ejaculation that he were ghey. not a bad surprise, just a, "well that came out of nowhere" surprise. phallic digit references in owb were also surprising, but in an unfunny and crude manner. too few good surprises in fo:nv-- religious ghouls in rockets being a notable exception. HA! Good Fun!

irony in the words o' inigo montoya, "i do not think that word means what you think it means." *shrug* and no, we never claimed that any reading other than ours is wrong. we claimed that given our own alternative reading and plausible defense, coupled with the alternative reading o' others in this thread, drew k, AND lucasarts no less, your suggestion that kreia made it clear that she never intended to kill the force is wrong. weight o' public opinion should never be considered determinate, but it should make one at least consider alternatives. also, when so many has a different reading than oblarg, it more than just a little undercuts the theory that kreia made it clear that oblarg is right. in spite o' the fact that nearly all crpg plots is nonsensical, you has hardly established that case in this instance. for chrissakes, a nonsensical plot in and of itself is hardly even worth mentioning. sarevok's plot to disrupt the sword coast by "poisoning" iron in mines? HA! nevertheless, you gots a theory that depends on one line o' optional dialogue without which the entire house o' cards falls. really? oh sure, you sees evidence elsewhere, but your ambiguous excerpt is the linchpin. and again, keeps in mind that we ain't denying that kreia is teaching and testing, but she simultaneous is wanting revenge 'pon those who has betrayed her. as much as she feels betrayed by the jedi and her former sith compatriots, she recognizes that they is all potential pawns o' the force. you recognize that she wants to kill sion and mush-mouth and the dantooine masters, but not the ultimate puppet-master? rrrriiiiiigggghhhhhttt. so kreia works simultaneous to expand the exile's wound and hunt down her own personal foes. hardly as wacky as dozens o' other crpg plots. furthermore, one cannot betray a trust until such a trust exists-- kreia took her bond with the exile quite serious. add in her desire for meaningful choice and recognizing that the exile were similarly betrayed as herself... oh, and in the alternative, the plot gets really wacky and nonsensical if you genuine believe that the whole kotor2 plot is just some crucible for testing the exile. ... if anybody is retconning (what a horrible word) it is oblarg. perhaps drew and lucas will simplify kreia motivations, and that is a shame, but at least they is in the right galaxy, so to speak. HA! Good Fun!

I'd say your interpretation gives far less credit to Kreia's character than mine - not only does it require to you simply accept pretty much every action she takes at the end of the game (and most of what she does for the majority of the game) to be completely absurd as it doesn't help her accomplish her supposed end goal, but it also requires you to accept that she ultimately compromises on her beliefs by being "redeemed" at the end by the Exile. It literally makes no sense at all in the context of her character, and even less in the context of the plot of the game. If she really wanted to kill the force, she could have done it as soon as the force bond developed between her and the Exile; why would she need to draw out the Jedi and the Sith to destroy them if she truly thought she could remove the one thing that made them a threat to the galaxy in the first place? you misread us just as you misread kotor2. and you still insist on ignoring the possibility o'having multiple goals. is not simply Kill the Force. can't want revenge and death o' force? revan is more than a reminder o' kreia failure and the exile is more than simply a tool. as long as you keep looking at the game so limited, you will continue to miss obvious stuff. perhaps your misunderstanding comes 'bout 'cause you ignore why kreia wishes to kill the force. start at the Whys and maybe you get different answers. maybe consider the nature o' betrayal too. HA! Good Fun!

No, I think you're just close-minded and not really reading anything I'm posting. The "big reveal" is of the nature of why the Exile lost his connection to the force, and of Kreia's true motivations (to destroy both the Jedi and the Sith). The cool twist to this is that it ultimately doesn't end up being that much of a twist at all: "Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core. There is no great secret. There is only you." *groan* talk 'bout taking out of context. your quote, once again, works against you. there were no big reveal at the very end 'of the game. is no, "it were all a test." GOTCHA! the quote is correct. we already were made aware o' all the big secrets before leaving dantooine. so , yet again, you post material which works to hurt your argument. if the kill the force stuff and threat were all a ruse, then there woulda' been a big reveal at the end... and chrisA woulda' made obvious rather than obscure. again, take out your single essential line and the whole house o' cards falls. no mention o' "i know" and final tests and your reading is complete implausible. the same cannot be said o' the lill the force scenario. and keeps in mind that Gromnir is not the one being so close minded. we is suggesting that kreia need not have a single goal and motivation. ask a person why they is going to university to study. is probable a half dozen reasons... chances are that those reasons change. you is wanting one, simple solution for a complex character. Gromnir is suggesting that One o' kreia's goals is destruction o' the force, and we is claiming that kreia never made simple and clear as you suggest. our interp is far more open-minded as it recognizes complexity and multiple motivations. you and vol, on the other hand, is having much more in common with vol as you is somehow seeing simplistic and limited. once again, a final test for the exile does not preclude that kreia wanted to kill the force. have to be pretty close-minded to read that way... 'specially as we is talking 'bout a game that needs a final confrontation. just 'cause we point out the holes and flaws in your reading does not make us close-minded. am only closed to bad arguments. HA! Good Fun!

Inquisitor and Consular or whatever. Ill look them up, thanks. Jedi? The Kensai-Mage of SW Im the anti-Hurlshot, I prefer to stand in the back and nuke your face off. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_...epublic#Classes our interest is negligible, but the included link is seeming to be a useful start point for those who is having such interest. HA! Good Fun!

celibacy in religious orders is hardly limited to catholic... exits in buddhism and hinduism to name just a couple. knights templar, buddhist warrior-monks or sadhus can all be equal kinda inspiration for jedi, and in all such cases you gots historic celibacy. yeah, from a genetics pov it not make sense, but the star wars universe is futuristic only in technology. knights running 'round with swords. evil wizards. etc. also, from a practical perspective, if you wanna create a whole forbidden love scenario for a character who is already having a crisis o' faith, makings his religious order forbid romantic entanglements is a crude but effective way to up the ante, no? is no real mystery here, is there? hamfisted but but hardly perplexing. HA! Good Fun!

Actually, she didn't go through much at all - most of her actions throughout the game were focused on eliminating the remaining Jedi and Sith, which had much more to do with the future of the galaxy than with allowing the death of the force - in fact, most of your actions during the game have absolutely nothing to do with the "death of the force" at all. well, duh. the big reveal that kreia is trying to kill the force and that the exile is a wound that can bring about the death o' the force wouldn't be much o' a reveal if it were obvious from the start. *snort* kreia's use o' the exile, a broken ex-jedi capable o' destroying the force, to be the instrument o' her revenge is just coincidence, right? throw in krei commentary 'bout the tyranny o' the force and her happiness at finding one capable o' killing the force... then bringing 'bout actual circumstances that could in fact destroy the force... ... at this point we thinks you is being kinda willful obtuse. HA! Good Fun!

I've given repeated examples of how numerous other major plot points in the game don't make sense in other interpretations, and how there's a lot of build-up that points towards Malachor being the main unresolved horror in the Exile's past, and how confronting that and resolving it is the main point of the game. none of which in any way could be precluding kreia's Kill the Force plans.... and as already stated (and should be obvious by now) if kreia didn't genuine have any plan to kill the force, then she went through a whole lotta unnecessary subterfuge to set up circumstances that could lead to the death o' the force. kreia's actions become largely nonsensical if oblarg reading is accepted. *shrug* take your one line away and your house o' cards is a fail. cannot do the same by removing a single death o' the force line o' dialogue. HA! Good Fun!

This one is easy, Jedi aren't allowed to have sex. Sex is part of the dark side. Think the rules of religions against the debaucheries of hedonism. even more important than sex is the issue o' ghey sex. does lucas embrace teh ghey? am not all that knowledgeable o' star wars canon beyond kotor 1 and kotor 2, so perhaps included in the novels and comics is frequent lesbian love scenes and athenian-style man orgies such that even john waters would blush. however, such stuff were absent from the few star wars games we has played, and we not recollect fringe sexual content in any movies or tv stuff. am only asking 'cause there is some kinda ghey critical mass at the bio boards-- for every 10 bioware threads, at least one must include a demand for more ghey romance. has the boycotts and protests begun, or is star wars bigger than ghey? "I haven't ignored "most of the game's content." Maybe you'd see that if you yourself weren't busy ignoring the content of my posts." sure you did. you ignored what were said and done throughout the game in favor o' a reading that makes an alternative interp o' one optional line o' dialogue at the end o' the game possible... and somehow that one line complete alters kreia motivations. try reverse. take out any one line that suggests that kreia wants to kill the force. remove any one line and it not substantial diminish kreia's apparent loathing for the will-robbing capacity o' the force, and her desire to end such subtle slavery. remove your one pivotal line and you got... nothing. even if you were correct, that woulds be horrible writing.... and it sure ain't clear. HA! Good Fun!

is odd how oblarg suggests that some kreia statements is clear, while at the same time he/she reads kreia statements not as they is written, but however they will fit with his theory. she didn't mean that Literally? 1) kreia hates the force-- even you admit that point. the force robbed her of choice and she were betrayed, broken and cast out. 2) "I see the potential to see the Force die" is what she says... clear language. whether you thinks that kreia plans to kill the force, the story makes clear that the exile's existence is a wound in the force that could lead to its demise. multiple characters, such as vrook, give this notion credence. 3) kreia then creates circumstances that could, depending on the actions o' the exile, lead to the death o' the force. (see above posts) ... motive, means, opportunity and words that can be read as an admission. lord knows Gromnir wishes we had so easy when we were doing criminal law. nevertheless, because o' one line mentioning a fina tests in a +40 hour game, a line that not every player would even necessarily read, a line that is open to interp and can be read multiple ways, oblarg chooses to read in a manner different than the one drew has chosen to embrace-- the reading that is 'bout to become canon and had to be ok'd by somebody in lucas' organization. fine... just don't tell us how clear it all is. heck, at least vol oversimplification don't ignore most o' the game content. HA! Good Fun!

You don't have to ignore any buildup - Kreia hates the force, and she sees in the exile truth in that one can turn away from the force and become stronger for it. Her motivations for the entire game are to preserve this, and rid the galaxy of those who are blind to it (the Jedi, the Sith). Nothing more, nothing less. "I would have killed the galaxy to save you" and whatnot. If Kreia had actually intended to kill the force, her actions at the end make no sense - she would have done it as soon as she could, not wait for the Exile to come and stop her. much o' the end o' kotor2 is... stoopid. keep in mind that atris were gonna be a possible final villain depending on how the game were played. kotor2 were not a coherent novel-- it were a game. obsidian games in particular typical ends messy. nevertheless, waiting for the exile is making sense if you actual follow kreia philosophy and statements throughout 40+ hours. again, the exile is getting to make a choice. why is the force abhorrent to kreia? 'cause it is an affront ot good old nietzsche will to power philosophy. am not certain why you wanna work so hard to invalidate kreia behavior for the vast majority o' the game. kreia sets up a whole scenario that can lead to the death o' the force... says she hates force and is happy that exile could kill the force, but that ain't what kreia is REALLY after? if that is the case, then your reading o' her actions is what do not make sense. HA! Good Fun!

The "you have already failed me" is dependent on the "if so," not a separate declaration. The latter would directly contradict other lines in the same discourse, which is full of nothing but praise for the Exile and his choices up to that point. None of what I have said "flies in the face of her character for the rest of the game." Quite the opposite - it is much more in character than a straightforward betrayal and villainous plot would be. Kreia is not a villain, not truly. sure she is a villain... just not a simple one. you is gonna continue to deny regardless o' some obvious kreia development. statements to atton 'bout being a pawn. philosophy o' force when talking with exile and handmaiden. comments 'bout and to atris. ignore all the build-up to show how kreia were hating the force and the fact that the force robbed her o' meaningful choice... 'cause that were all some kinda red herring? fine. you is devoted to your interp and will not be swayed. nevertheless, the notion that kreia makes it "quite clear" that she weren't genuine trying to kill the force is clearly a suspect position. and again, 'cause this not seem to sink in, the possibility o' a final test for exile does NOT preclude the fact that kreia wants to kill the force. the exile gets the choice kreia were never having. am not actual concerned in arguing the point... am just making it obvious that your initial statement were wrong. kreia never made quite clear, and drew reading is at least as valid as is yours. might even be as valid as Gromnir's. HA! Good Fun!

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost. But in you

Oh, she'd certainly like to end the force, but the "I know I have to be stopped" makes it quite clear that she does not really intend to do it - rather, she used the threat of it to force the Exile to confront her, so that the exile's past might finally be resolved. That's the entire point of the game, really; Kreia training the exile. "i know" is agreement with the exile's belief. it could even be a statement o' regret. nevertheless, you choose to ignore dozens o' other actions and comments by kreia throughout the game. hell, you choose to ignore the You Have Failed Me bit in your own quoted material. kreia is a complex character. she wants death o' the force and she loathes what she has become... and she blames the force for that as well. she sees the exile as an answer to her prayer for the dying o' the force... and possibly as a means o' redemption if her ultimate plan fails. kreia is not simply teaching the exile. she uses the exile to kill off all who she feels betrayed herself and revan. the force robs kreia o' meaningful choice. perhaps that is why in spite o' her machinations, she ultimately provides the exile with a choice. don't try to simplify for your own benefit. your retcon is no better than the one you deride. HA! Good Fun! ps kreia is right up there with ravel as the bestest crpg character we has encountered. don't diminish.

am not certain why you thinks the above quote precludes kreia's desire to end the force. *shrug* people see what they want to see. is why drew has no chance to satisfy you all. HA! Good Fun!

a one-dimensional evil villain interp for kreia would be sad, but your personal retconning o' kreia reveals why this drew fellow gots 0 chance to appease fans. btw, any bets on how long it takes for some schnook to create a darth evil/evyl/e'vl character? yet another reason we wouldn't touch this nonsense with hurlshot's computer much less our own. HA! Good Fun!

am having almost 0 interest 'cause two of the three factors you mention is negatives in our estimation. as for star wars dogma... *groan* am recalling how more than a couple o' nerdnatics railed at chrisA 'cause the kotor2 basilisk war droid was all wrong compared to previous star wars canon incarnations. am pretty sure that anybody other than lucas who works 'pon star wars books or games needs sign a contract signed in blood. soul as collateral. eternal damnation. etc. kotor2 were/is, in our estimation, obsidian's bestest release by some considerable margin. nevertheless, forcing future developers and authors to stay true to kotor2 canon seems silly and stoopid. am recognizing that lucas is serious'bout maintaining the integrity o' star wars canon (HA!) but Gromnir personally finds such efforts to be laughable and a little sad. HA! Good Fun!

am thinking that this is good news... just so long as tim ain't in charge o' making sure a game gets released on time or is bug-free. perhaps it would be a good idea to keeps tim from having to make production kinda choices or works on nuts-and-bolts implementation o' conceptual stuff. probably not want tim to handle any business decisions or relations with publishers neither. ... can tim make coffee? HA! Good Fun!