Mandragore

Leaving aside those arguing that the Aumaua should look outlandish or conversely that they should look almost human, who here just thinks that what we've seen of the concept so far (look, not fluff) is crap?

I just meant that the devs might take notice if they saw that a majority of fans were unhappy with the design. The poll can be for that with people posting suggestions in the thread itself.

This is exactly the opposite of what I want. There are plenty of Jrpgs that are all smiles and rainbows, go play one of those; I'll take my PE with an extra large helping of grimdark.

I was also pretty dissatisfied with the Aumaua art. I think they looked like derpy humans with county fair tiger facepaint on. I think they definitely need to look more physically inhuman and more amphibious, gaunt gangly limbs and shark-like teeth etc. I agree it doesn't really make sense that they have hair, much less those corn rows, which looked totally ridiculous. EDIT: You should start a poll to see how many people like the concept and how many hated it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81Jg6L16Mzs

Fair enough. My only point was that it sounded like you knew it would be provocative when you posted it, so its kind of silly to then say that this isn't an appropriate forum. (although I agree that it isn't)

Meh, they sound like special snowflakes to me. I'm predicting angsty black angel wings and a racial ability to dual wield katanas...

I was making a joke. My only point is that people who are strong actually look strong. The magic stuff is irrelevant since originally we were just talking about how a female warrior would look. Again, you're entitled to your opinion; you already know mine and personally I'm not really interested in reading more of your frothing illogic. Except that it DOES justify their actions IF you believe that it's the literal word of a deity, because it (Islam) IS sexist. The majority of Muslims who don't go around flinging acid at people are just moral or sane enough not to take that pile of bullcrap literally. We're talking about "Islamophobia" not racism. We've already established that they're not the same thing. It what sense am I a racist? The Koran is not a person and Islam is not a race. Actually if you read my posts I never said this, you're just putting words in my mouth again.

I'm aware of that, I was just curious as to why you'd post something provocative and then just duck out of the ensuing discussion...

Am I the only one who thinks these guys will end up the mary sues of the PE universe? EDIT: The anime pics aren't helping...

I just threw up a little...

I think this could be relevant. Ancient Aliens guy could be the PE pantheon's demigod of bullh****...

Should it? Even if she got teflon skin or something it probably wouldn't be visible. If a spell makes you stronger it makes sense that it would do that by making your muscles grow... I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or just stupid... No one is saying that all Muslims "want" to throw acid on women. All that's been suggested is that Islamic fundamentalists, informed by sexist scripture, are throwing acid at women who refuse to conform. Your analogy is retarded because being male is a gender, not a religion or ideology... Oh, didn't realize criticizing someones religion was the same as throwing rocks and firebombs. "Islamophobia" is rarely used to describe the acts you mention. Most often its used by apologists and knob-ends like you trying to weasel out of discussion by equating criticism with racism. When did I say either of those things? There are Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists. Both interpret their creeds literally and commit atrocities in their name whether they're tossing acid or shooting doctors. Seeing as we're talking about Islam however I don't see how that's at all relevant. Edit: So why post it in the first place...

Maybe in a skirmish or something. IIRC the Battle of Agincourt lasted for like a whole day...

And when you're fireproof does that mean your skin should look this? You're saying that Buffy's strength is impossible but that's the whole point of magic; to do the impossible. Did you read the rest of the replies because both of your less than clever retorts were already attempted others. To summarize: 1) The people getting acid thrown on them (and the ones throwing it) in India are Hindu (look at pretty much any article on the topic in India and notice how many women are dressed in traditionally Hindu garb). 2) While Islamophobia is not racism, per se, using the term racism when referring to hate against Muslims is generally accepted (even in the academic community). Regardless of whether you call it racism or Islamophobia, though, what the poster I was replying to said did originate from a position of ignorance (if not outright hate). Also, have you ever read the Bible, because that book advocates for some pretty brutal ****. You see, extremists of EVERY stripe are ****ing insane; it's not something that's unique to Islam. You are the literal king of missing the point. 1. I never said Buffy's powers were "impossible" I just said that they'd seem more plausible if the magic that made her stronger actually had some visible effect. 2. The overwhelming majority of acid attack victims are Muslim women, this is a fact. 3. Islamophobia isn't racism, true, its just bull****. You can't be bigoted against an idea or system of belief, only against the people who hold it. If Jezz was implying that all Muslims are inherently violent misogynists then yes, he would be a bigot. If I understand him correctly however, he's simply observing that Islamic doctrine encourages sexism which it pretty explicitly does. 4. I have read the bible and you're right it is just as draconian and barbaric. This is unsurprising considering that the two religions share a common cultural ancestry. I'm not sure how you think that gives Islam a free pass though. If I kick you in the shins and then you kick someone else, are your actions somehow justified just because I'm doing it too?

I'm sorry, but how does this keep sailing over your head? Its not just an issue of appearance. The issue is STRENGTH. When you are physically strong its visible. Don't you think your "muscle therapy" would actually... you know, give someone muscles? Buffy's strength is still ridiculous IMO because the magic that gives it to her just makes her stronger, it doesn't make her muscles expand or anything. I gave Valeria and Red Sonja as examples of female warriors who look the part; neither one is bulging with meat, but they're both tall, athletic and have long reach, in other words they look like they could handle themselves in a fight and carry their weapons without fainting. Thats all I have to say on it. You're entitled to your, admittedly terrible, taste; I'm entitled to mine. There are muslims in India...also why are you still on this? The people I was responding to dropped it, lets follow their example. So the fact that Muslims are present in a country is reason enough to attribute bad things that happen in that country to Muslims? Damn, talk about racism. Search acid throwing victim on google images and look at how many are wearing traditionally Hindu garb (hint: those that are aren't Muslims). Also the people you were responding didn't drop it; if anything they got tired of you shouting at them and decided to ignore you (imagine that). Way to completely miss the point. The issue is not that there just happen to be Muslims in India, Malaysia or the UK, its that THEY'RE THEY ONES THROWING THE ACID. Add to that the fact that you have no ****ing clue what "racism" is. Islam is not a race. Arabs are a race. Do you understand the distinction? When I point out that the Quaran mandates draconian punishment, beating of women, apostate killing and sets market prices for slaves I'm not being RACIST against Arabs I'm merely CRITICIZING Islam. You have no idea the cultural, legal and physical pressures brought to bear on women who forced to wear the Hijab in countries with theocracies or salafist regimes. Kindly take you misinformed post-modernist bull**** elsewhere. (Saudi Arabia maybe?)

If that's not magic, then neither is whatever the **** Daenerys has (asbestos skin?). Also, do you know anything about martial arts? Like, at all? It's beyond easy to throw or knock down an opponent twice your weight or more if you have the proper training ( ). In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Summer Glau would probably kick your ass in real life; just saying. Finally, have you ever asked an actual women about her opinion on this subject? Most I've talked to are big fans of Buffy, River, and Daenerys, but when asked about Brienne all I get is "why can't she be a little prettier?" and "why does the only woman on this show that can fight have to look like a man?" I'll concede is that In light of Buffy's power's being magical its a bit less verisimilitude breaking, although IMO still silly. The rest of it is nonsense though. I'm sure a well trained female martial artist could kick my ass IRL; I'm equally sure that real female martial artists do not look like River or Buffy. Also, why would it matter what some random women you know think about firefly or buffy? Bad taste is not unique to men. As for why Brien looks like a man, again, she doesn't have to, but it helps. Contrary to what anime may have led you to believe, waving a sword around does actually require some muscle power and size and reach are an advantage in any fight. You don't have to be Jersey shore steroid swole like Brien, but if you look like River, good luck even holding a long sword straight, much less swinging it at someone.

First off, the powers of the characters you mentioned aren't magical, so that point is moot. Second, you obviously don't understand what verisimilitude is. Its synonymous with plausibility. Nowhere in fire-fly (IIRC) does it say that river has technologically enhanced strength. She's an emaciated fourteen year old girl with a fourteen year old's musculature. No matter how awesome she is at space karate, its not really PLAUSIBLE to see someone with that frame cold **** or throw grown men around a room. Valeria and Red Sonja from REH's conan stories would both fit the bill of a female warrior for me and neither one was a "butch she-man" they just weren't innocent looking weaklings. I'm not sure what planet you live on where female fighters either have to be emaciated anime waifs or buff transexuals.

Or the "blood of the dragon," which, I ask again, is different how, exactly, from being a Slayer or having been enhanced with future tech (at least River's powers have some basis in science)? Unless you're telling us that magic in your blood making you fireproof is reasonable but magic in your blood making you super strong is not; in which case I can TOTALLY see where you're coming from. Like I said earlier; I'm a fan of both, but saying that one is more "realistic" than the other is a bit ridiculous. You dissembling a bit there, Buffy and River can beat up large numbers of male opponents totally at odds with their physical appearance, that's whats unrealistic (in the sense of hurting verisimilitude). Denerys, who looks as feminine as either Buffy or River, can't beat up anyone and her one fantastic ability is based on magic, not physicality. If a female character is going to be killing her opponents with fireballs and such that's one thing, but if she's swinging a sword around she should at least look the part. My point is that I don't really want any fetishized "skinny girl with giant sword" anime BS in the game. let the sorceress and the rogue be sexy, the female fighter should be a be a competent, intimidating hardass. The horror...

This sums up my position pretty well. If I can actually see something on an NPC, particularly a special item of some kind, why wouldn't I be able to loot it?

Your MAIN POINT was to say that those characters are "unrealistic" while using a character from a story that contained an equally "unrealistic" character as an example of an apparently good character. Just answer the question of what's the difference between River's/Buffy's powers (and the explanations for them) and Daenerys' from a "realism" standpoint. Sides... Splitting... River is the ultimate unrealistic "girl-power, hurr durr" stereotype, she's an uber-feminine adolescent with poorly explained super powers that allow her to beat up men. By contrast, GrrM's female characters, if they are powerful, are that way for a reason, whether it's skill, intellect or physical might. In reality, the sorts of "strong women" you see in anime or whedon's ****e are just fan services for male-feminist mouth breathers to wank over. I actually know someone (friend of a friend) who works with advocacy group for victims of acid burn attacks, mostly Saudis and Yemenis IIRC and I can tell you that you're talking out your ass. The perpetrators of the attacks aren't crazy, they're misogynistic religious fundamentalists. The biggest issue that womens advocates in the mid-east have to deal with is the fact that those cultures tacitly condone such attacks, since they see the women as having transgressed in the first place by having the audacity to work or attend school. Condemning that sort of injustice is anything but racist. /Digression over.

Lets toss rape in there as well because, you know, it's realistic. When you encounter one of these themes in a novel, do you just close your eyes and turn the page? Why all the squeamishness? Its this exact expectation that fantasy games should be lighthearted and juvenile that keeps their narratives so immature. Personally I like dark fantasy; I hope Obsidian implements all of these things and more.

I would actually prefer a more complete looting system. Not down to looting soiled orcish loincloths mind you, but weapons and armor certainly. I'm always annoyed in crpgs with shallow loot systems when an enemy is very obviously wielding a superior weapon to mine, but my character can't loot it. If a humanoid npc is visibly wielding a weapon or wearing armor I should be able to loot it. More in depth looting also adds some challenge and thought to the process since you have to decide what the choice loot is to carry back and sell, instead of just automatically looting some gold and 99 stackable whatevers off of that orc you just killed.

A caste or feudalistic society is different in that the people at the bottom rung have some rights and possibly some limited upward mobility. As was mentioned before, if you're a slave, as opposed to a serf or untouchable or something, a successful revolt can only improve your lot since you're not getting anything out of the relationship to begin with. Add to that the fact that they (the slaves) probably don't see themselves as part of that society to begin with and have most likely seen friends and loved ones abused at the hands of their masters and you have a group of people that, if you're the head honcho, it would be wise not to turn your back on. History bares this out. Societies that practiced chattel slavery like Sparta and the Ottoman Empire (exempting Janissaries) were constantly under threat of revolt. Those that practiced milder forms, such as Rome or Athens were more stable, but still had pretty frequent problems. I'm not going to crack open a book to cite you anything (you can do that to prove me wrong if you want) because Its late and I don't really care that much. Again my whole problem with the wizard slave thing is that regardless of what type they were its pretty much a given that you'd need other magic users to contain them, since their powers, even if they're minor or specialized, would probably make escape and rebellion a lot easier. I'm pretty sure this is why, In most fantasy settings, its wizards (Thay comes to mind) enslaving non-wizards and not the other way around.

No, no one is saying that they didn't exist. Someone made the claim that slavery made slaves "docile" also that slavery discourages rebellion and that slavery-based economies were viable and prosperous in the long term, myself and a few others disagreed. That was tangentially related to the idea that magic users could be enslaved en-mass to fuel the economy. IMO the wizard-slave state is a dumb idea because historically ordinary people who were made into slaves required a militarized society and constant vigilance to keep them repressed. Wizard slaves would require the same thing, but from OTHER WIZARDS, which makes the whole thing silly, for a number of reasons.