Morality Games

Approximately 362,000 owners on Steam, 14.5% of whom are backers. After dropping out of the daily top 25 sellers for a while, the game is now back on the chart at #21. It's hard to guess how that compares with other platforms. 14.5% of 362,000 is 52,500 -- suggesting that about 1/3 of the 77,000 backers got their copy somewhere else (tho some may never have picked up their copies), which in turn suggests robust sales outside of Steam, likely for a total of a bit more than 500K. All that's just speculation, tho. Unfortunately, the only retailer not selling Steam copies is GOG, and a disproportionate number of that community probably got their copies during the KickStarter.

Companions in past Obsidian games worked well mostly because their dialogue boxes were designed as puzzles where spreadsheet values, Influence meter, and flags hit by exploration or events in the critical path 'unlocked' dialogue choices that allowed you to develop a deeper relationship, a relationship which surfaced during critical moments to produce a divergent outcome to a quest, cut scene, or scenario that wouldn't have existed otherwise. Often you got special items, knowledge, or stat boosts. That kind of complexity and interactivity is missing from Pillars of Eternity. Even worse, they went with the Bioware structure where each companion's character development is compartmentalized into two-three conversations worth of development split between a companion quest. Their motivations are present in a summary and straightforward way, usually with them explaining what they want and what needs to happen in the relationship right away. Real life groups and cliques don't work like that, with the members of each clique varying in terms of their standing and personal interaction with the alpha male/female, and not every companion should start by having a quest. Some of them should never have them at all. For example, in Planescape: Torment, you do Grace's "companion quest" in advance of her joining your group; she joins you out of curiousity if your spreadsheet checks manage to unlock the proper dialogue options. Dakkon doesn't have a quest until you unlock it through conversation, and Annah and especially Morte are mostly critical path dependent characters; they have no quests apart from their need to help the Nameless One. Rather than having every companion have a goal that they "announce" near the outset of them joining the party, Obsidian should go back to their older, celebrated style where companions are well differentiated in terms of why they are there, how you interact with them, and what you get out of them. So in Pillars of Eternity 2, maybe one companion starts as a mercenary you meet at an inn who you pay installments of gold. In Pillars of Eternity, this would be a Goldpact Knight. Instead of having a conventional quest, the writers should make it so the Goldpact Knight knows a lot of the factions and NPCs you do work for in the game because he's been employed by them before; you learn about his character and develop a closer relationship with him through conservations stimulated by his commentaries and insights, which may also unlock new ways to interact with those factions and resolve their quests. If he comes to like and respect you, he teaches you something about X to make your character stronger. On the other hand, if you fail to pay him he'll allowed himself to be employed by your enemy and you have to fight him later -- if you have low Influence, he'll attack without a word. If you have high influence, he will tell it is nothing personal, and you can use Resolve to convince him that it IS personal and that by allowing past relationships to affect his choice of employer he has forsaken his Goldpact vows, which results in him abandoning the field. They should do more stuff like that. I know they did this a little bit, especially with characters like Durance or Grieving Mother, but it really wasn't up to scale.

Unfortunately, the Open Gaming license doesn't allow you to adapt the D20 system into a computer game. So, they would have to develop a different rule set. As amusing as it would be to see Tim Cain develop a turn-based D&D 3.75 cRPG to school the Sword Coast Legends guys, they'll have to go a different direction on whatever cRPG they decide to make. Unless they've got some kind of contingency I know nothing about. Actually some people think that's not correct. There was discussion in this thread about it already. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66652-pathfinder-crpg-by-obsidian/?p=14766Well39 Well, all I can say is that if Obsidian intends on making a Pathfinder cRPG using d20 rules they had best announce development now so they can get the lawsuit out of the way sometime by 2020. At least by that point we could have had an Eternity trilogy and nobody will question them if they take a similar direction with this license. KickStart Paizo/Obsidian's legal fees so that they can make a d20 cRPG.

I'm taking relatively feeble stabs at the PSP version of Tactics Ogre.

Unfortunately, the Open Gaming license doesn't allow you to adapt the D20 system into a computer game. So, they would have to develop a different rule set. As amusing as it would be to see Tim Cain develop a turn-based D&D 3.75 cRPG to school the Sword Coast Legends guys, they'll have to go a different direction on whatever cRPG they decide to make. Unless they've got some kind of contingency I know nothing about.

That argument seems borderline impossible to support, beyond the fact that enemies respawn from the environments but the portals stay closed. There's like 4-10 portals on average, each one spawns like 16 demons during two rounds of combat and some significantly more. Did you kill 100-150 Mages and Templars in the Hinterlands?

If we're still rating this game on a scale of a hundred I give it a 60/100. Continuing their established legacy of one step forward and two steps back, Bioware made a compelling critical path only to strand it in a sea of going in no particular direction. Designers didn't seem to get the point of an Elder Scrolls-esque open world is to create (and then feed) a relentless hunger for interesting discoveries. "What, a mine full of expensive rare metals outside Balmorra? So I can harvest to sell with no consequences? Cool!" Players steps into the wrong side passage, and then BOOM: Fire Auruch! "WAGGGH!! The Balrog is chasing me and I'm only Level 2!!!!!!!111" <--- my first Morrowind experience Most of these environments entail you finding the same types of puzzles and fighting the same types of enemies (Fade Rifts + Demons make up 50% of the enemies in every area). Consequently, there's very little excitement to be found just wandering around -- but wandering around is the point of these large environments? From the trailers I get the sense that more elaborate side missions were supposed to provide additional context and meaning to exploration, but these must have been scrapped at some point.

You'll be shocked what a guy can do when the choice is (1) do more work than you ever knew existed (2) or Dungeon Siege 4. ... in seriousness, he has co-workers, the writing across these projects entails different levels of intensiveness at different times, etc.

This is getting mildly ridiculous. Negative reactions have ranged from "Everyone except Bishop" in NWN2 to "Only Bishshop" in NWN2 to the entire cast of Kotor II and every shade between across all Obsidian and non-Obsidian RPGs -- including popular, Award-Winning characters like Kreia and fan favorites like Alistar.

Surprised this hasn't worked its way into this thread. http://www.inquisitr.com/517030/obsidian-entertainment-wants-to-make-another-star-wars-game/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Inquisitr+%28Inquisitr%3A+All%29 Obsidian has been developing a pitch to create a new Star Wars RPG, but not in the Old Republic era. Probably about as good as we can expect.

1/8 of the companion writing tyme dedicated to sappy Fan Service. I wish someone would write a low-combat romance CRPG, even an indie one. They would make a fair bit of money and lots of folks would be happier and not haunt games like this with their demands. Romances are part of the Infinity Game family tree, like it or not. The only series that didn't have them at all was Icewind Dale, which also didn't have meaningful character-driven relationships of any sort. No. BG2 had them. That's it. And they were an astonishingly (and mercifully) shallow part of the game. IWD 1 & 2 didn't. BG1 had no romances. PS:T's 'romances' (I don't consider them to be) can be viewed either way. I'm not a maths genius but that's 1/5th of 'the family.' And a tiny fraction of that 1/5th. If that's the level of romance we have to endure in PE then fair enough, otherwise you are inflating something to suit your own preferences. Which is fair enough, but doesn't bear scrutiny. PS:T had romance-themed content you could choose to act upon, or not. It wasn't as much about developing a specific kind of relationship as exploring a different aspect of the relationship. My other main point is that Icewind Dale as a series isn't even applicable because it had no meaningful companion relationships. Its not a question of whether romances are good to include among character relationships, its that character relationships and character-driven narratives are themselves not instrumental to a role-playing game. The only game that omitted romances among the character-driven narrative Infinity Game engine was Baldur's Gate.

1/8 of the companion writing tyme dedicated to sappy Fan Service. I wish someone would write a low-combat romance CRPG, even an indie one. They would make a fair bit of money and lots of folks would be happier and not haunt games like this with their demands. Romances are part of the Infinity Game family tree, like it or not. The only series that didn't have them at all was Icewind Dale, which also didn't have meaningful character-driven relationships of any sort.

And hey if you want more they finally finished the restoration project mod. I have so little time for gaming these days but I hope to get to it eventually and see how they did. Amazing. There were still some things I wish they had added though.

Well, Amazon has to file a tax form for certain because it is profit for them. Same with Kickstarter.

Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger are great role-playing games. I know from personal experience that the Persona and Tales series are of quality. Fire Emblem also has elements role-playing and is great ... less so during its GameCube and Wii run, but Awakening looks promising. I understand that Dragon Quest is on the same caliber. Even Feargus Urquhart (Obsidian CEO) spoke favorably of developing a sequel to Chrono Trigger, and was in talks with Square to make it happen. or Chris Avellone, for that matter - He mentioned it a few times in the countdown party, too. Chronotrigger got a lot of love from Obsidian that day! for the record, I've never player Chronotrigger - number of JRPG's I've even started you can count on one hand Generally the argument is whether Final Fantasy 6 is the best or Chrono Trigger is the best. The best character-driven interparty jRPG versus the best choice-driven interparty jRPG (but also great characters). Both of which have great -- I mean, great -- exploration. Both anticipated the best of what would later be achieved by Western developers with narrative, character, and choice, so its little wonder why they receive so much respect.

no problem with it so long as it fits game, character, etc. Some of the jRPGs have dealt with this idea - Namco's TALES OF GRACES f for example; more or less with 4 main characters Asbel, Sophie, Cheria and Hubert all as kids where they have an adventure (that goes wrong) and then later as adults who end up coming together to deal with some further issues that tie into that original ill-fated adventure. Great...jRPGs... next thing you know folks will demanding that we be able to make heros that look like effiminant teenage girlish boys (with bare midriffs and low cut pants) with blue/pink/yellow spikey hair and carry swordguns. They can have a romance in game with their childhood friend. You will have to deal with an evil imperialistic power. In the end, the government of said power will be ruled by an evil church or a cabal of rich jerks or both. You will travel about till you get a boat and finally an AIRSHIP! You will use the airship to go to a large flyng castle where you will rescue your childhood friend/hopefully future wife from the big bad evil guy with long hair. He will kill her but your righteous rage will fuel our powerful revenge in righting all wrongs before you awake and realize it was all a dream... or was it? Ya... I love where this thread is going.... Obsidian... ignore these people. Romances are a very bad idea. Most of the relationship ideas have been abyssmal. Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger are great role-playing games. I know from personal experience that the Persona and Tales series are of quality. Fire Emblem also has elements role-playing and is great ... less so during its GameCube and Wii run, but Awakening looks promising. I understand that Dragon Quest is on the same caliber. Even Feargus Urquhart (Obsidian CEO) spoke favorably of developing a sequel to Chrono Trigger, and was in talks with Square to make it happen.

Not quite two years, as estimated.

Sure. Not sure if you mean "kill on sight" or as part of the dynamics of the relationship, a master vs. apprentice sort of thing.

Talk about families got me thinking about the original Witcher. One of the high points in the relationships of that game was the opportunity to be a father figure of sorts to Alvin. It gave the player some opportunities to develop/explore Geralt's personal philosophy. It didn't necessarily turn out well in that case, but the opportunity to be a mentor to a younger party member, as a way to add to the PC's character, has a certain appeal to the lecturer in me. The idea being, the younger party member will be malleable to the PC's teachings. A PC with an evil and ruthless outlook on the world will endow the younger party member with those values, and a good and honorable will do the same.

I mostly see it as repudiation of Bioware for misusing romance as a narrative device. Not a definitive statement on whether Obsidian will make use of the device in some way or will actively avoid it in anyway it can.

So there won't be angsty teen conceptions of love in their game. The question was "if they will be there." Avellone basically said that the issue receives disproportionate attention because there are a lot of engaging relationships.

The only thing that will kill this thread is when-if they announce there will be no romances or that there will be romances. Then there will be a new thread titled "Why not romances?" or "Why romances?"

This isn't the ending of ME3, something that hundreds of thousands of people have (or can have) a great deal of passion and commitment to. This is a few weirdoes arguing about an obscure issue behind our computers. For everyone else, a large number will find romances and enjoy them, a comparable number will be mostly indifferent and may or may not, and a smaller number will be mildly annoyed and do their best to avoid them. Alternatively, a large number will be mildly disappointed, a comparable number will be indifferent and mostly won't care, and a smaller number will be pleased. The stakes are relatively minor.

Annah was truly spiritual.Oh wait. Depends on how fine of detail you look at it. She did resist physical advances, was motivated more loneliness, and feared fate. You could say similar things about plenty of Bioware romances.They still wouldn't have any depth.She falls in love for TNO merely due to a juvenile crush.She might have been afraid for her fate but how does she deal with it?By throwing herself at some random dude's arms?Please.That might even give feminazis something to talk about. Let's face it:Avellone is a good writer but romances aren't his forte(not that I blame him:the chances of doing something right are small when it's pretty much always been done poorly). Even if I agreed Annah was the weak link (which I do in a limited sense), I wouldn't say Avellone is a weak romance writer. Fall-from-Grace, Brianna, and Visas Marr all met specifications. Annah was basically a precursor to Morrigan. Morrigan enjoyed somewhat more depth because in additional to her contradictory impulses concerning friendship, family, and romance, she had esoteric goals and commitments that superseded them (the Old God and what it symbolized for the changing of times and her personal philosophy). I think that saying Annah was motivated by a crush is a little extreme. Her surroundings and way of life were dangerous in any case. The Nameless One just brought some sense of purpose to the chaos.

You didn't answer if YOU WOULD WANT TO FORCE DEVS TO REMOVE LOW-INT DIALOGUE WHAT THEY LOVE TO WRITE FOR THE ROMANCES WHAT THEY DISLIKE TO WRITE JUST BECAUSE YOU SELFISHLY WANT ROMANCES IN. You didn't answer if YOU WOULD WANT TO FORCE DEVS TO REMOVE LOW-INT DIALOGUE WHAT THEY LOVE TO WRITE FOR THE ROMANCES WHAT THEY DISLIKE TO WRITE JUST BECAUSE YOU SELFISHLY WANT ROMANCES IN. Truth be told, I tend to agree with the argument that low intelligence dialogues patterned after the speech of mentally handicapped persons are offensive. The whole thing started decades ago around tabletop role-playing as a way to punish players who min/maxed and ended up with low intelligence, for the general amusement of everyone around the table. That might be funny privately, among friends, but as a public statement it does border on tasteless. I would exclude them for that reason.