neo6874

Yeah, the destroy-able stuff was what ended up causing me to turn off D&D hardcore mode ... money's hard enough to come by at low levels that the 3 shortswords and leather armor I can loot out of the chests behind BBEG are actually worth it...

Forging the (whatever) was implied -- E.g. making an Iron dagger was DC 5 (for "Short Sword") +0 (for "Iron") for a total DC of 5. Adamantine would be DC 8. Granted these are more "placeholder" numbers and material attributes than anything. I just threw the thing together, and didn't really flesh it out (so missing +DC for "harder" things, like 'keen' or 'masterwork', etc.) -- I'm just trying to give us a common point of reference so that we can avoid the wall o' text posts trying to explain some detail that is better served by "OK, take a look at the [sheet], Column D for what I mean here"

I'd counter that not returning an evil person's stuff is not necessarily "selfish". I mean, would a cleric of Ilmater or a Paladin of Tyr be considered "selfish" if they're keeping the holy symbol of Bane from that cleric over there? What I mean is, that one needs more than just "keeping [item]" to call an act "selfish" ... if that Githyanki blade is returned, what acts would it do with the sword? Not to mention, you're a bit hamstrung sometimes in the games -- "give us the sword, and we'll kill you quickly".

I do think the slightest hint of "You should probably be aware of the possibility of traps in this general area" would be most welcome, in at least the majority of situations, even if that's simply general knowledge of the area. Such as "Lots of poachers hunt out in these woods" leading to you probably deducing that there MIGHT be hunter's traps about. No need to have indicators for "there's probably a bunch of floor spikes right here in the floor, because *bloody skeleton*" every time you come anywhere near a trap (that would defeat the purpose of their being undetectable without being found), but I don't it to be "well, you'd better sneak through every single square inch of the entire game, just to make sure there aren't any traps." Of course, I don't expect silly trap placement. "Alright, guys, I'm gonna head upstairs to our room here in the tavern to get some shut-" *one of the stairs sinks abruptly, making a slight click. You notice a spiked metal ball making bone-crunching contact with the side of your head.* really changes the meaning of "Watch that first step, it's a doozie", no?

Correct, and they were a bit nice about it... (you got 25 or 26 hours between resting -- so that 24h trip between the Nashkel mines and High Hedge wouldn't leave everyone dead fatigued upon getting there) though resting anywhere outside of town was generally a recipe for "holy crap, ambush"

Well seeing as they're owned by Activision and EA respectively, I can't say I'm surprised.

Bow or crossbow (as well as maxing out the proficiency) helps a lot there. Though I do agree, they're a bit anemic with THACO (and just bad in IE games because getting them in a position where they can actually backstab is damn near impossible)

Wait, you didn't have a rogue/thief in the party? Isn't "have a rogue" one of the "rules" of an adventuring party?

IMO, Isometric, because you see your characters, rather than just their head and shoulders (OK, sure they could use flat sprites, but that's getting more to side/vertical scroll a.la Super Mario/Comanche/Zero Wing[in AD2101, war was beginning...]). It also lends to better looking environments, since the developers have the option of putting stuff on the walls (or detailing them more than simple "this is a cut stone wall) -- think the original Zelda vs A Link to the Past (yes, I realize you've got technology improvements as well)

nope, it's all "overall XP" (or rather "quest XP"). Actually, it more reminds me of playing a PnP game. Sure, a kobold might be 20 XP (pulling a number out of thin air), but at the end of the night the DM doesn't tell you "OK, you killed 10 kobolds, you get 200 XP", but rather something like Fighter - you got 500 Wizard - you got 650 (because bonus XP for something) Rogue - you got 700 (bonus XP, plus you did an OOG bonus XP thing) Cleric - you get 550 (OOG bonus XP thing) Multiclass ... you would have gotten 1,000 but Class A is still 3 levels ahead of Class B, so you get 750.

TBH, I like the "time based" travel of BG and IWD, especially in the savegames. I mean, instead of "NWN Save - 0:42" (i.e. just time played), you see "BG Save - 12h". Also, it makes for some "fun" challenges along the way. For example in BG, you can take an ankheg hide to the smith in Beregost, but if you don't have 4k GP to get him to make the armor, you have a tenday before it goes bad (although it's unfortunately a global timer, rather than for that particular hide).

I kind of agree with Lephys though -- if a trip takes 12 hours, it takes 12 hours if I leave at 6AM or 6PM ... BUT I should be resting at least 4 hours (or whatever the minimum "you're no longer fatigued" time is) somewhere along the way. This, in turn means one of two things: 1. The trip actually only takes 8 hours, but we rested for lunch/dinner/etc somewhere along the way. 2. The trip actually takes 16 hours (12h of travel, plus 4h resting somewhere). The resting doesn't ever need to be a full 8h, UNLESS the base travel time is over 24 hours (excluding any rest breaks). "Standard" FRCS travel times (at least as I recall them) for a "forced march" are 10h of actual travel plus 2h rest "per day", provided that you're resting full 8h overnight (the 2h rest is really "lunch and care for the mounts at midday") ... but then again, I still have my DMG, et. al. packed away somewhere (stupid moving).

apparently I can't edit the previous post (or I'm not really logged in...?) le sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjqZntrXJcjCdEhHSDBqUGYwdEI5RGgyeEF4RzF6SEE&usp=sharing

not that hard with a wizard ... AC6, THACO of 20 ... and 4 HP.

you forgot "killed by some random mook in the first house you walk into because they TOLD you to go inside" (**** you, tutorial priests at candlekeep)

And enough annoying instances of "your journey took [12+ hours], now your party is whining about being tired"

@Lephys (first wall 'o text this page) -- I always liked the D&D 3[.5]E rules with regards to materials, where you had three (four? don't have the DMG handy) possible outcomes for crafting: pass DC -> get 1 day closer to making it fail DC by 1-5 -> delay, minimal (if any) extra cost (e.g. "a new bunch of [herb] for teh potion - 1 GP") fail DC 6-10 -> delay and destroyed all of "today's" parts (anything prior not affected) (IDK if this was in there) fail DC >10 -> destroy all the things I agree with the DC thing, and if we're gonna keep "Meteorite Iron" as our uber material for weapons, it would make sense then that a "L1 weaponsmith" can't use it, even at 18 STR (+4) -- not because he can't work it, but because unless he rolls a 20 [automatic succeed] he's failing by 2, and will keep incurring SOME additional costs (which, at low level would be prohibitively expensive -- let's say you're selling Meteorite Iron longswords for 10k GP, the iron costs 8K + 1500 GP for sundries (smith's tools, coal, the plans, whatever). Anyone with the proper skills (or just dumb luck) can make them for 9500 GP some times. If they fail by a few points, they add 25-50 GP for more coal on the forge, and can try again. If they fail by 6+ points, they're out 8k GP for the Meteorite Iron (IDK ... um, ruined the temper on it, and it's irrecoverable). Now, obviously this is assuming a "PW" setting. In a SP setting (or co-op campaign), you're just not gonna get the meteorite iron til Chapter 4 anyway, because you save the dwarf merchant that sells it from the bandit camp that's outside the temple to Bane at the end of Ch. 3. (Sure, you could try saving him in C1, but your party of sub-15-HP-AC6+-THACO19+ characters will get steamrolled). Really, this is just the difference in having a "campaign-less" setting of a PW, where the whole point of logging in today is "so, what story am I going to write today" and the campaign setting that is being built for us by Obsidian, and just following their story (where the whole point of playing is "save the world from [problem] that's been hinted at since the opening movie"). @jamoecw -> OK well, it's been ages since KOTOR II, and as I recall it both HK-47 and Kreia were dark-side aligned. I don't recall ever playing through their quests (or at least was always too "light side" for them to like me much). In either event, your bonuses were rather limited (HK, Kreia, 1 or 2 others?) and you didn't have much else that could be added (sure a force power here or there, but nothing on the same scale as what is possible with D&D buffs). Furthermore, as I recall it, you could only craft your first lightsaber (might have been KOTOR1 that did that), and everything else after that was just modifying an already built one (color of the blade, plus one or two other crystals, plus grip). Furthermore, you could not obtain lightsabers (or parts generally) from merchants anywhere. The system was always "take 1 fully complete lightsaber/vibroblade/blaster/rifle, add upgrades, call it done". This is in no ways a bad thing, but it is not the same system that Lephys is trying to get at ... he's coming from the perspective of "why should I bother buying this vibroblade for 10 credits, when the parts only cost 9, and a table is over there" and you make exactly the same thing (i.e. no sockets/modifications to make yours better). I think we can all agree on the following: crafting and shopping should be different, although one shouldn't be obviously "better" crafting can allow breaking things and using their parts to upgrade others (e.g. take balanced pommel off "shortsword" and apply to "shortsword +1") some degree of diminishing returns on training ('PW' setting only), some "chance" involved, rather than hard steps as you gain 'crafting xp' 'slots' or something to limit enchantments/bonuses to something reasonable but don't call it that I think it would actually be easier to discuss this if we had a "psuedo crafting system" to work off of so that we don't mire ourselves in the minutia of trying to work out the kinks. I'll put up a (terrible ) spreadsheet later today and link it here.

Thing is, with BG, the areas were so expansive that it doesn't really matter that each one was edged with a "world map travel" change. Other games (NWN) don't really have travel at all (in the campaign anyway), everything was just an area stitched to another area ... so travel from a town to another town (if ever done) was always town 1 -> forest area 1 -> forest area 'n' -> town 2 got tedious when the thing you needed was in town 2, and you had to return it to the guy in town 1 ...

It's been ages since I've played KOTOR (II) ... so yeah, I'm definitely glossing over things with the crafting system contained therein (or outright getting it wrong). My point was that there is/was a different balance point in KOTOR than in most DnD-esque settings - such that you simply couldn't craft an exceptional balanced +4 lightsaber of evil smiting (+4 / +8 against evil; -4 penalty for use in offhand) and then take it to your friendly neighborhood Elminster and get +6d6 acid and +4d4 fire damage enchantments added. As far as "limits" -- you're right with "typical" D&D rules (max is +4 equivalent) but a cRPG isn't necessarily tied to those rules. In the crafting system I made, I think we decided on "4 enchantments overall" without regard to what it made the weapon's modifier overall, because the PW was "small" (max population was like 2 full parties worth of people on) ... most of whom were the builders anyway. (IIRC, it was a define-able option, just disabled for our server). @Lephys -- yeah, like I said, my example was just quick and bad. I agree that needing to be a L10 weaponsmith "just" to make meteorite iron swords is a bit over the top, but was just the first "useless" thing I could come up with that "not everyone" would train for. Taking a different route, you could say that each level decreases the difficulty by so much (say 5% at L2+) ... So Meteorite Iron is DC 20 base (before skills, STR, whatever). Character has +3 STR (16?), L1 weaponsmithing. d20 + 3 (STR) + 0 (level) >= 20 ... so your roll has to be 17 or greater (15% success chance). L10 weaponsmithing d20 +3 (STR) +9 (level) >= 20 ... so your roll has to be 8 or greater (60% success chance) or maybe the DC is 25... you can try at L1 crafting, but you only have a 5% chance (assuming a 20 is automatic success, since you only have +3 from your STR bonus)

Dear Player, Your wizard has four hit points and an armour class of 6. The Gibberling does 1-6 damage per hit. You have used your 2 Magic Missiles for today. All my love, Baldur's Gate 1 That's more like it.

Nope, Wikipedia picture of the cover shows 'T'.

Agree that IWD has a great intro ... but I like the voiceover done in BG better.

hehehe, suppose that's also another solution

In early game stages leveling up whole party may be game-changing (see ICWD series). It may or may not be of some concern in P:E. Fussing around to maximize XP will be annoying and stupid, no matter how it will be implemented. It is not H'n'S game, where XP is the only indicator of one's progression. And it is not about punishing mages for trying to sneak, but about rewarding them for doing "mage stuff". What is "mage stuff"? Cast an invisibility spell? Hey, you're sneaking with Mage Stuff. Shoot a fireball? You're fighting with Mage Stuff. You brewed us up something? Awesome, so did the barbarian. Y'all should compare notes. Want to reward a class for doing "class stuff"? That's already mechanically implemented. It's why rogues have a naturally high Sneak and fighters have a naturally high Deflection. So they're good at doing Their Stuff. I think the idea is that there are only certain places where you would get this kind of "class stuff" XP. The scene : outside the BBEG's keep The task : get inside The party: Fighter (Hum), Rogue (Hlf), Cleric (Dwf), Wizard (Elf), Ranger (Hf-Elf), Druid (Hum) (Flavor Text) After another half-day's travel, you find yourselves on a small ridge overlooking Crag Keep. In the distance, you can see the drawbridge is lowered, and only the inner portcullis has been closed. There is a lone guard at the gates, but you can see the flickering of a dying fire coming from some nearby arrow-slits -- it must be the guardhouse. In the failing light, you can just make out a small wooded grove just inside the walls to the east of the gates, and stables to the west. Possible solutions: Rogue -> backstab the guard, steal the keys to get in Wizard -> (assuming familiar can cast spells) Cat familiar wanders to the guard, sleep spell on him Druid -> makes the trees in that grove grow over the wall and let you in (or, transmute rock to mud, etc) Ranger (or druid) -> spook the horses in the stables Another scene: You've made it to the foot of BBEG's fortress, where you confront him in the cistern. If he's successfulat poisoning the water here, it will poison the water supply for every village at the base of this mountain Solutions: Ftr -> break the chains holding the cover up, so BBEG can't pour in the poison Ranger/Druix/Wizard/Cleric - Hold Person/entangle/etc Other things may require a specific class to get the XP bonus, but can still be circumvented in other means (locks -> XP is to a rogue, but a ftr can bash it in, wizard casts knock, etc).

No, as I said n is the number of the level not some xp value. x(17) should have been 136000 in your system. The formula that does that is x(n) = (n-1)*n*500. Try it, x(1) is 0, x(2) is 1000 and x(17) is 136000. If you insert that into my formula, you get: x(n,p,c)= (n-1)*n*500 + p * 1/c * (n*(n+1)*500-(n-1)*n*500) or after simplification: x(n,p,c)= (n-1+2*p/c) * n * 500 with x= exp points you need in total n= level c= number of classes p= your class, from 0..(c-1) So a fighter at level 17 with 5 classes would need x(17,0,5)= (17-1+2*0/5)*17*500 = 136000 xp. Seems correct A rogue with p=1 would need x(17,1,5)= (17-1+2*1/5)*17*500 = 139400 xp , the mage x(17,2,5)= (17-1+2*2/5)*17*500 = 142800 xp. Our fifth and last class would have x(17,4,5)= 149600 xp. And the fighter at level 18 would need x(18,0,5)= (18-1+2*0/5)*18*500) = 153000 xp, *after* any other class reached level 17. The thing is, my function doesn't care what level progression is wanted. You just need to feed in the right formula for level calculation and it works. See above, I used the basic level progression you were interested in (i.e. the progression table in D&D 3e) and you should now see the correct values. a wizard at L17, using your math (with 3 classes, so can compare directly to my table) x(17) = (17-1+2*2/3) * 17 * 500 x(17) = (17-1+2/3) * 17 * 500 x(17) = (16+2/3) * 17 * 500 x(17) = (48/3 + 2/3) * 17 * 500 x(17) = (50/3) * 17 * 500 x(17) = 141,666 So, I'm off by ~5k in my orginal tables (not too bad for guessing at it ) Have re-checked your maths as written, and came up with the following: Long maths: Shortened: Well, your math works, but this part is wrong "(n-1+2*p/c)" specifically in that it's doubling the difference (so RGE needs +666 and wiz needs +1333 per level). Took it out, and then hard-coded L1 to '0' XP and the table works out cleanly.