Darkpriest

Naturally, they were camping the area, waiting for the inevitable rescue attempt. Where is this data that they executed the pilots coming from? I think that Turkey has made a costly error here. I have not seen Putin so furious in a long time. I do not recall him being this pissed ever to be honest.

Russians are enforcing their Assault troops on Crimea as of now.

Somewhat unrelated, but does anyone know who is responsible for two bombs in Athens? Also Tunis also suffered from a bomb attack, the bus with presidential security got bombed, 22 dead so far.

Hold on....are you seriously telling me there are no cases of rape or murder where you live? Obviously there are, but not in significant numbers. I cant check the data now as i am using phone for forum tracking and not using my work related computer to do anything not related to my job. IIRC it is something like 1 per 40k populace a year in case of rapes. Please find out ...I'm interested I have to be honest its been quite a shock to realize how bad South Africa is ...I will raise this tonight on that radio station and get others opinions So i pulled out some Police statistics and divided it so I could get results per 1,000 citizens. here it is: Murders: 0.015 per 1,000 citizens per year (1 per 67.1k citizens per year) Rapes: 0.036 per 1,000 citizens per year (1 per 28.2k citizens per year) Non-armed assault/participating in fights: 0.228 per 1,000 citizens per year (1 per 4.4k citizens per year) Total crimes: 18.479 per 1,000 citizens per year (less than 18.5 crime per 1,000 citizens per year, where vast majority are thefts, and narcotic related crimes, like trafficing, possession etc.) it is a CEE country, which in 80s was less secure than most old EU countries, such as West Germany, France. I recall the time when in Switzerland people could leave their houses and cars open and not even think that someone will try to steal something from them. That was before they vastly opened borders to immigrants in West EU. Various CEE countries have various rates per 1000 but they are not significantly different, so you can imagine why they are so against accepting immigrants, when they see what has happened in old EU countries. (problems with assimilation, increased crime rates, especially rapes and murders, etc.)

We shouldn't even trade. It's because of business interests that we have gotten so involved in the situation in the first place. And trade interferes with the area, propping up rulers and supplying them. Hard not to trade given the oil in that region.

Hold on....are you seriously telling me there are no cases of rape or murder where you live? Obviously there are, but not in significant numbers. I cant check the data now as i am using phone for forum tracking and not using my work related computer to do anything not related to my job. IIRC it is something like 1 per 40k populace a year in case of rapes.

Yes when vast majority of offenders are immigrants and now refugees join them it seems

I think that it is the first time i can agree on something. I've been pointing it out since forever. The concept of democracy is alien to that area. Western civilization was raised on the greeko-latin culture... middle east, aside of the short rule of Alexander and later Seleucids was never under its influence. Thats the main reason we should just let them do whatever they want and only trade with whoever is ruling without meddling in their affairs.

I am fairly sure that it was what the crew expected but then again they were not even in the Turks airspace. I would not be surprised that they were actually talking with their command about being intercepted and targeted. But Turks decided to attack. I am fairly sure that from now on Russian jets have a green light on destroying any Turkish jet that could pose threat to them. I mean i can't imagine pilots being willing to take flights in that zone without such a green light for "self defence"

Nah. its a war zone and accidents happen ...Russia knows this It was no accident...

I know, right...

Perhaps US oil buisnees alone not, but you are losing bigger picture. it is not just about the US oil industry, it is about the effect that it would have on the global stock and financial markets, US believe it or not, is not the centre of the Universe, let alone Earth. Yeah, i guess that's what you can do from your perspective - take the money form the ATM and be blind for all the business practices and "cash flows"

@Tigranes I was amazed by various combinations of food. Mayonayes and ketchup mix with fish and chips, or peanut butter and jelly... I mean, for me those things were like a culinar heresy... and still are, never bothered to take a bite. the mere thought of those awful things disgusts my cups. On the other hand food like pieces of tender veal straight from the shin bone, with mashed potatoes mixed with cooked pumkin with fresh vegetable mix and a splash on plate made of a salty sausce on the basis of dark bittersweet chocolate and warm cranberries, so you can combine it with whatever piece of food or mix of food you have on your fork.... now this is a poetry of food and flavors. PS. that said i like to have a bite of mozzarella sticks or a good poutine with my beer in a pub.

@Bruce Additonally, a special learning task for you for your next visit in the ME area. Find out how the banking system operates there, what kind of services are available for who, etc. I can only tell you this much that tracking any type of asset movement from the outside perspective is IMMENSLY difficult to not say impossible to asses true scope and accuracy. Arab banks are not traditional banking, and one of the reasons is the religion and its view on certain regular banking practices, like for example lending money and taking it back with interests (I suspect Quistina could be your religious council on those aspects) The only reason you do not see more visible tensions between USA & Co. vs Arab states is big money and big business. After all it's the big bucks sponsoring various candidates and political parties. If the oil trade would halt with that region it would cause such a huge global crisis, that many really big financial istitutions would just fold and that would cause a backlash on the local markets and economies in each "western" country.. think the last crisis multiplied in magnitude by the one from 1973. Besides the nature of the financial systems in Arab countries would make any official claims near impossible to call, and certainly not valid enough for the public in the 'western' countries after fiascos such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Wow 2 pages of WTF! Bruce, you want to tell me that people who were raised here have miinformed view? I believe they simply despise our approach to certain way of life. I admit i have enough of PC to a point that i could start hating it. Add some other cultural differences and there it is. You go ballistic. Also Calling Sauds allies is a bit far fetched. At best they share same economic and political interests but do you actually see them fighting extremism? Considering the branch of Islam they practice is the most restrictive and most militant I'd have my doubts about their real allegiance. Well this thread is about honesty so I will be honest....what do you think I am saying is misinformed about? And yes Saudi Arabia is an ally to the West but you need to understand why they are an ally to the West. People sometimes misunderstand me because they think my view is inconsistent but its not. My view on the overall Middle East is I want stability and I don't want the oil supply to be disrupted Saudi Arabia is the leading Sunni country in the ME and the other Sunni\Gulf states follow there lead so this includes UAE, Qatar and Kuwait. These also happen to be overall the most stable countries in the ME and the ones that the West understands the best. My company has a branch in Dubai and I have worked in all these countries So first point is it would economically imprudent to now become an enemy of Saudi Arabia. Also you have to realize after 9/11 the Saudi's became a target for Al-Qaeda because they considered the Saudi royal family as apostate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia So up to then the Saudi royal family didn't really care to help the USA but they realized that there survival was linked to the West defeating Al-Qaeda and they became a real asset in the war on terror as they provided invaluable information So yes we need to respect the fact that the Saudi's dont embrace liberal values such as human rights but they also dont support extremism ...and that is what matters in the context of the Middle East and remember my objective ....the stability of the region Also for the first time Saudi Arabia is actively involved in the airstrikes against ISIS....so they stepping up in there regional responsibility http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/09/world/meast/isis-coalition-nations/index.html They do not support it officially, per the king's offical word, BUT it does not mean they do not support it unofficially. Look which schools and mosques are sponsored by the Sauds officially, then consider this that Sauds official religion is Wahhabism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

OMG i've burst out with laughter

Btw i feel that a few more posts and we can officially change the topic to "cultural influences on your local cousine" Ps. This thread now made me hungry and craving for something obscenely unhealthy.

@TN Even regular chinese restaurants with chinese staff have westernized cousine. The first non-westernized chinese food i had was in Richmond in Vancouver, Canada area. It was actually the same as they serve in mainland China's, in better restaurants. All the meat cut witha bon so you can eat it with sticks, work on it in your mouth and spit out the remains. A lot of real chinese food and style of eating is not really comfortable for our typical western fork and knife, with little bone cousine.

I think that is more racial than religious...you must understand that South African Muslims are...well, Africans...and you know what western people do to them? Surely they have anti-west sentiment, so when ISIS blow up the west, they will be happy...they take ISIS as their hero... This is what western people forget about, western people making scars a lot in the east...today it have mixed up between racial and religion. In brotherhood sense we all Muslims are brothers and sisters, you spew hate on Muslims, ALL Muslims no matter what race will react...but if you spew hatred toward certain racial group, no one care... The mistake western people make now is mix it all together...you attack on Islam and Muslims generally without looking at culture, race, country...all these are since 9/11. Like this Syrian refugees flocking Europe, they are seen as "Muslim refugees"....while actually many Syrians are Christians.... No almost all Muslims in South Africa are Indian But we don't judge all Muslims, I keep trying to explain that...we dont like extremists. We judge Al-Qaeda and ISIS And the West doesn't attack all Muslim countries, the West has a real alliance with many middle east countries like Saudi Arabia Maybe...they may see it like that. Maybe they do see the Jihadists in a positive light because they strike against the West, I never considered that But then they have a misinformed view of the West because this is not a war against Muslims the West is active in....its a war against extremism Wow 2 pages of WTF! Bruce, you want to tell me that people who were raised here have miinformed view? I believe they simply despise our approach to certain way of life. I admit i have enough of PC to a point that i could start hating it. Add some other cultural differences and there it is. You go ballistic. Also Calling Sauds allies is a bit far fetched. At best they share same economic and political interests but do you actually see them fighting extremism? Considering the branch of Islam they practice is the most restrictive and most militant I'd have my doubts about their real allegiance.

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. I really wish you wouldn't make such negative posts....I don't believe a word of it but I'm worried you may exacerbate the tension that many of European members are feeling The Syrian refugees coming to Europe DOES NOT represent some sort of clash of civilizations. But I will say this, I may even agree with you that perhaps Muslim countries do resent the West for some or other reason but the reality is you will not see some sort of Islamic conversion of Europe because the Muslim world is simply just not stronger or admired enough to influence this Sorry to sound direct but thats why Europeans have nothing to fear...your ideology and culture cannot be conquered by someone weaker than you Tell this to Romans... You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. Truth to be told I can't blame them for not wanting to read Goethe And yeah. We had plenty examples in history. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc. With Rome being the best example as it ell to religious turmoils and barabrian invasions Chilloutman and Dark Can I ask you guys something....do you feel that with this influx of refugees coming to Europe that European culture is threatened? And do you draw comparisons between the EU now and Rome...in other words the Romans also thought they would last forever ? Considering they lasted for over 500 years as a dominant culture... yeah i think they were. Even now we are living on their cultural heritage in many ways. They on the other hand took a lot of cultural influence from Greeks, which they conquered and assimilated.

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. Truth to be told I can't blame them for not wanting to read Goethe And yeah. We had plenty examples in history. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc. With Rome being the best example as it ell to religious turmoils and barabrian invasions

@Elerond. I am not a citizen there so I just stated what it seems to look like from my perspective when some news hit the higher coverage or from some lunch talks while there and some incident happens

I am sorry but Scandinavian countries are not attacked because they bend over their butts amd do whatever the closed communities want plus they are not even commenting on Syrian developments and provide ZERO military assistance. Funnily they have to sometimes convoy Ambulances or firefighters with police force to certain districts and areas. Coincidentaly those are muslim areas with immigrants from middle east and north africa... While I am no swede i was there several times.

So you're taking Ernst Junger's example and assuming it was representative of everyone else, while dismissing the factual arguments I made and the rest of the contemporary examples of the consequences that resisting conscription had (i.e. deportation to a concentration camp and death by firing squad). Was it an ideological struggle? Perhaps, though the line separating ideology and outright propaganda is blurry at best. Was there a safe alternative to being forcefully sent to die in a battlefield? Not really. "Ideas worth dying or killing for"? Such as? In what context? This is the sort of grandiloquent ideological hot air that is only good to engage people on an emotional level, to stop them from thinking critically and make them easier to manipulate for whatever goal the ideologue has in mind. Funny thing is, it's precisely the fact that these people believe in "ideas worth dying or killing for" that is a big part of the problem. Because it's your ideas that are worth killing and dying for, and not anyone else's, right? And killing others on ideological grounds has a great track record of solving problems permanently, yes sir. How about we try discussing the issue with arguments beyond anecdote and how everyone but you is blind and stupid. As an aside, if these ideas are worth dying and especially killing over, why aren't you, you know, killing and dying for them instead of strongly advocating that others go do it? Are they only sometimes worth that? Only worth that for someone else? How does that work exactly? These ideas are the ones that allow you to write whatever you think and be at worst criticized for them being "odd" or "out of place". It is because people who beleived in the values of personal freedom and free speech etc is worth dying for, you have the opportunity to do so today. As for me not going there... it is not my war, not my problem and in fact i am arguing now against importing those problems on OUR ground so we won't have to fight in the future with more than words, pen and paper to protect the values we acquired in the bloody conflicts of our history. Should this be a war in my country i would act differently.

I'll quote forum's classic: THIS IS EVIL!!!