BruceVC

My dear misguided Nonek, it's a common knowledge that green tea is superior in every way to the ovestated earl grey. And please, don't even start with it's being suitable for a refined gentleman - I heard that already and the fact I'm foreigner (thus supposedly accustomed to the bland tastes of green tea) doesn't make your unreasonable opinion any more valid Diclamer for those unfortunate enough (as I bet Nonek understood the joke): GO PLAY ARCANUM :D And I love earl grey. Coincidentally I'm sipping one at the very moment. Hmmm... I doubt he gets it, he is English and you NEVER joke about tea with them You Jonny Foreigners and your attempts to undermine the British by luring them away from the Proper Drink that is Tea! You know that the strength of the British comes from the increased Moral Fibre gained by drinking tea mixed with cow's milk and have attempted to lure patriotic citizens away with your pansy drinks, we all know the British Empire would never have fallen had so many of us not been lured by the foul elixirs such as coffee! Fortification of Moral Fibre by tea has been shown to increase combat effectiveness by 20% as you will all find out when the new British Space Empire (BSE) arises and the planet of Didcot is founded!!! The Tea Must Flow!!! You funny

"Boy, did he multiquoted the heck out of us"

Guys I don't mean to sound sycophantic but I really encourage people to read what Alan has written in his last 2 posts as he took the time to respond to many comments. But read it without emotion, try to be open minded. As I mentioned he uses almost irrefutable logic and is brilliant at making a point in a way that I fail to see how anyone can dispute what he is saying. This is not about being right or wrong, this is about a different perspective. I genuinely learnt new things about this debate from his input

My dear misguided Nonek, it's a common knowledge that green tea is superior in every way to the ovestated earl grey. And please, don't even start with it's being suitable for a refined gentleman - I heard that already and the fact I'm foreigner (thus supposedly accustomed to the bland tastes of green tea) doesn't make your unreasonable opinion any more valid Diclamer for those unfortunate enough (as I bet Nonek understood the joke): GO PLAY ARCANUM :D And I love earl grey. Coincidentally I'm sipping one at the very moment. Hmmm... I doubt he gets it, he is English and you NEVER joke about tea with them

Orog part of this discussion is about equality, please don't discriminate against rock creatures. They have feelings and rights the same as every other minority group

Wow what a trip, nice one I would love to do something like that, I wouldn't go for that long and I would use hotels or chalets for some of the trip but I would definitely hike and make sure I see as much scenery as possible. Make sure you take photos so we see what you are experiencing

That's does sound interesting and unusual, you must go a hike to see Ice Caves. What is the reason you are going?

Wow Labadal you have lots of money to waste on unimportant things, think about all the starving children in Africa who could have benefitted from that money....

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have. "sign" ....its a called an analogy. I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters. And Mario... Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have. "sign" ....its a called an analogy. I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters. And Mario... I hear you but I still think that massive breast's has a sexual objectification that is not quite the same as good arms or pecs for a man. But we can agree to disagree on this one I have to comment on this one... I have few female friends which consider sixpacks and big muscles as much bigger sexual objectifications of men, than most of men on these boards are thinking about big boobs as objectification of women And one question. My current assistant at work, which plays videogames has bigger boobs, than most of the female characters I have ever seen in videogames... Should she feel outraged too, that she cannot play a female characters which fully represent her body type? And to Alan... Mario is japanese character. Japanese developers shown in the past much more flexibility than their western counterparts, when it goes about depicting various body types and character types or trying to keep away from typical stereotypes. As an example for all could be used Drakensang series... Come now, don't be silly. I have no issue with big boobs. I have an issue with the representation of women in some games and if you assistant is fine with the status quo then this not an issue for her but it doesn't change the fact its an issue for many others

When I was 10 I created a dungeon with an elephant in it. It wasn't the only thing in it and in my defense I was 10. Oh yeah and the Elephant had fallen through the ceiling and had half-hit points because of it. But did the players care about my finely crafted dungeon? Noooo....but then they wouldn't let me run them through TOMB OF HORRORS either...and quit my Star Frontiers game too...a sign perhaps? The quest hook was "there's loot in a dungeon, if you like loot go there." Morale of the story: Not everyone is equipped to be a good DM. Or don't let 10 year-olds create adventures in an RPG no matter how much they pester everyone. Something like that. Anyhow, does seem a really big plot railroad there. That's a cute story I commend your 10 year old effort

Is that MMO still going? What's the population like?

I have to say I'm loving Dishonored, its a really cleverly designed game. I am enjoying many of the features like finding the runes and charms, the narrative and using the heart to read the secrets of people. Its early days for me in the game, I'm about to go into the Golden Cat but what a load of fun

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group. Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there. I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't. "special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ? Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games" Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed 90% of statistics are made up on the spot... See my point about cryptopatriarchality above, you are taking it upon yourself to speak for "the poor ignored women" who, according to your imagination, are offended by the lack of bulging penii in games. Seriously, women are a) individuals b) very capable of fighting their own battles, c) without men or other women telling them what to do. Bs like this is what stands in the way of true equality. Nep you misunderstand me. I'm a liberal who tries to espouse liberal values, is against discrimination and believes in equality for all. But don't think for second this is something I do because either people appreciate it or need me to do it on there behalf. For example I have gay friends who don't care about homophobia, female friends who think rape jokes are funny and family members who are still racist, or pretend not to be, as they were raised in apartheid. In fact I would argue its more difficulty to believe in the social justice issues I believe in than to be indifferent and apathetic. Being indifferent is easy, you only worry about what concerns you directly. I believe in what I do because I've travelled the world and lived in a country where discrimination was institutionalized and I've seen the suffering and unhappiness that bigotry causes and also how some people are forced to live due to "acceptable" social norms I stand by my liberal views because its the right thing to do, not because other people need me to do it

It's not a laudable decision when it's the result of caving in to the demands of a special interest group. Since when? A lot of people seem to enjoy comics, too, and cartoony body proportions certainly exist there. In fact, i'd posit they were imported from there. I could write a diatribe about the absurd neovictorian cryptopatriarchalism put forward by the whole argument of the necessity of protecting weak females from the exaggerated and overt sexuality of female video characters... But I won't. "special interest group" ....that's the 50 % of female gamers right Nep and the sizable section of male gamers who also have an issue with it and that includes people like me and others and websites like RPS. So what do you consider a large enough number to actually warrant making changes to games? 70%...80 % ? Now I can see the response from some people, "you don't know that all female gamers have an issue with the representation of females in games" Yes that's true but you also don't know if they do. What I will say is that presented with certain feminist\equality arguments I fail to see how any women would have any issues with changes to some games and the way women are portrayed

Tonight I'm having Pork Chops and Mash with my homemade honey barbeque sauce.

I've been enjoying this series and I'm looking forward to the last episode, you should watch American Horror Story if you enjoy Sleepy Hollow. Its got its horror\fantasy appeal as well

It's late and I must be a little punchy, because for some reason that immediately brought to mind the famous Aliens "build a campfire, sing some songs" quote. With the way characters in the series come and go, sometimes with zero introduction at all, I think even a chart would fail to de-confuse. Nonetheless, make the chart and we can let you know how helpful it was. You can always make amendments as characters change in the series?

You have one flawed assumption there - that male sexualization and female sexualization is the same. In other words, that women are "turned on" by the same things as men are. While there are women that swoon over good-looking men (cough *Twilight*), obviously the standards are different. For women it's (generally speaking) more emotional than physical, but it's still there. It's just harder to spot. Well, at least sometimes (dont' tell me Twilight isn't sexually objectifiying men). Would it bother me to have a male avatar in a loincloth with a bulge? Not really. We've all seen Connan. You've raised a good point about the difference in sexualisation between men and women, but I still firmly believe men can be offended and feel objectified. I also think that male gamers would get annoyed if there was no diversity in the way they were represented in games?

Seems to be mainly them or male 'journalists' or others just doing their usual preaching circuit, though. Malc sometimes the right decision is not the most popular one in certain environments

In the case of WildStar the outrage seems to be more because its a change rather than a design choice. This signifies to many that they are buckling under pressure or trying to pander to feminists. Game companies (at least the publishers) could care less about what goes into a game that doesn't make them money, they probably interpreted that study about game demographics that says that women make up about half the gamers wrong. So pandering to what they perceive is a new growing market when in reality its just a very vocal minority. Some people take equality and the representation of demographics in games seriously and changes aren't made to game because they are pandering to vociferous minority but they feel its the right thing to do. And if half the gamers are female then it makes sense to design games that appeal to them on all levels.

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have. "sign" ....its a called an analogy. I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters. And Mario... Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have. "sign" ....its a called an analogy. I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games No, the whole point is trying to equalise to different things. Big breasts in video games are analogous to massive arms, pecs and sixpack abs on (almost all) male characters. And Mario... I hear you but I still think that massive breast's has a sexual objectification that is not quite the same as good arms or pecs for a man. But we can agree to disagree on this one

Yeah that's right about how you dealt with addiction in F:NV, it was a bit easy. I agree drug addiction should take you longer to recover from and be more complicated

Yes, because we are talking about oversized labias and especially clitori and the wet pants that female game characters have. "sign" ....its a called an analogy. I was demonstrating what for most men would be the objectification of themselves in games

As for my opinion on the "changes", I couldn't care less either way. Make the female breasts gigantic or make them more "normal" (which, by the way, is kind of dismissive of the fact there are women who actually have huge breasts. You know, variety rather than every female just having tiny boobs). Make the male cod piece ridiculously huge or make it not even noticeable. Either way, I don't care because it's an issue that doesn't change my enjoyment of the game. Which is ultimately my point. It just seems like such a stupid thing for people to get up in arms about. The reason I'm harping on the male equivalents (ie. super huge muscle guys as the image for male gamers to aspire to) is because there does seem to be a double standard. But overall, I just think either complaints are silly because we're talking about fictional characters made to look like an "ideal" person of that gender. You have unintentionally highlighted another valid point with this discussion. You say " I couldn't care less" and "seems like such a stupid thing for people to get up in arms about" because the reality is it doesn't effect you and your personal view of how you how you are represented in games. I ask people to have empathy, just because you don't see an issue with how females are represented in some games it doesn't mean this is not a valid concern for many others

No. You're trying to rationalize instinctual behavior, which is a frequent amateur mistake. Females' lives are built around their instinct to attract the strongest of males and get their sеmen. It may sound chauvinist, but I mean no offense. It's just that it's really all there's to it. Heh...not like I'm not familiar with that line of thought, since I've used it in my pessimistic moments re: the essentially unchanged nature of humankind. And yes, despite our intellect we are still instinctual creatures who react without thought to certain stimuli. Fight or flight, fear of unknown/different, and of course the oo-la-la. But the nature of humanity is not always the same thing as the culture of humanity, and that's where using that as an argument against change falls apart. People wanting/wishing to be as attractive as possible to find mates, natural thing and I doubt you'd find anyone to argue against that. What is culturally considered attractive, however, is ever changing and is definitely not ruled by instinct alone, but by whatever is the fad at the time. People's interests change, on a cultural level. At one time pudgy women were the height of sexual attractiveness for some. For others it was an exposed ankle. For still others it could be the bone in their perfectly shaped nose or how long their artificially-stretched-from-birth-via-metal-rings neck is. I believe the objection to objectification sometimes (or often) stems less from an objection to sexuality itself and more from how unreasonable that objectification is vs. any reality of what's reasonably physically possible. To most of our "modern" culture, for example, something like forcing girls to bind/literally cripple their feet as a pinnacle of beauty is/seems barbaric, because it's not something reasonable/humane to expect people to do in order to feel like they're attractive/have social worth. While fantasy Barbie-Doll proportions isn't in the same league as crippling one's feet, as this culture of ours evolves and changes, it's not necessarily unreasonable to think that a culture might eventually deem it unfavorable to use such as a socially-influential measurement of worth. Or such objections may end up petering out and going nowhere. Not for me to say. At any rate, just because we have roots that stem from instinct, in the long run that's usually a poor excuse for justifying not even attempting social/cultural change, if and when a time comes that enough people in a cultural group want change. ...myself, I'm still waiting for the day that flat feet and broad, short-fingered hands are considered the height of female sexiness. I'll have it made then. Never mind that I already have a mate. I can't wait, because then I'll still be considered super-sexy when I'm 65! Good post, the one thing missing from these discussions is that we don't get enough comments from our female members about these topics. I know one of the reasons for this is because we don't have a large number of female members who actively participate on the forums but its good to get your opinion in this debate