BruceVC

Capitalism sounds like a good idea until you realize that it only works when the gap between classes isn't to wide and there is mobility. Don't know why they keep arguing Capitalism thought, because what we have is a plutocracy that has been accurately described as social welfare for the wealthy. I think I covered my thoughts on that on previous threads, so I'll just say that systems are never the problem as they tend to be made with the best intentions to work under their circumstances. The monkey wrench its always the human element. One final note; people better get used to the idea of socialism as our spending capacity will soon not be able to keep up with production and some markets will shrink further decreasing spending power. Social planning to enable employment or to make basic necessities affordable to everyone will become a necessity as it will increasing taxes on companies and ensuring that they employ domestically. We might see a lot of capital outflow but with a boycott in place it would mean that the markets will be ripe for a takeover. Interesting post, whats your view on the gay marriage bill that was passed ?

So like I said, your own special brand of capitalism that hasn't been tried. Then you're blind. When you've got the divide between propertied and property-less, employee and wage-worker, master and servant there is going to repression by the former against the latter to maintain their position. Are you going to forcibly redistribute resources so everyone begins with a level start/actually has resources or are we going to leave things as is so those who already have the most wealth and power have greater freedom to exploit these privileges while the poor and hungry bend over for their economic masters. Depending on your own economic background I'm guessing you are either incredibly servile or a would-be tyrant. Baro I think you guys are talking past each other ...I agree with both of you for different reasons Everything Ineth says is true but you also right, there will always be people in a Capitalist society who will live in poverty ....but thats fine we accept that. We are not going to redistribute anything because the view of people who believe in free markets have a view that people need to gain there own opportunities...they can't expect others to do it for them And if they can't for a variety of reasons then yes they won't have the same quality of life as others ...and I'm not judging people for there circumstances. I'm saying this is the reality of a Capitalist society...but the good outweighs the bad

I added the private in their. The simple answer is: I'm not sure what you mean. Care to give an example? Namutree you thought the gay marriage bill was a step to far by the federal government ? I know you support gay rights but this more about the perceived interference by the federal government ...is that right ?

Oby how is your economy doing ? I am sorry for the reality of your economy but you did bring this on yourselves ...Putin can turn this around. He needs to pull out of Eastern Ukraine ...you can keep Crimea. I don't understand why governments battle to understand this ...very few countries can sustain or grow there economy when there is risk or instability. And there aren't even severe sanctions...what you feeling is just the impact of the initial nervousness..it could be much worse. And then add the falling Oil price ... http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/11/news/economy/russia-crissis-gdp/index.html http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-19/russia-rewrites-blueprint-for-growth-as-recession-dooms-consumer http://finance.yahoo.com/news/russia-recession-growth-contracted-4-173911831.html;_ylt=A0LEV0PP0NdVUDYAezNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZWZrdWhnBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwM1BHZ0aWQDQjA0OTNfMQRzZWMDc3I-

GD " waves " Where you been? Everyone said you had been arrested by the Feds ...we missed you Not an unlikely explanation. I just disconnected from things for a while. GD I need to ask you something, what is your view on Trump? We have been discussing him. Obviously I support the Democrats and Clinton but I am keen for your view ..please be detailed

GD " waves " Where you been? Everyone said you had been arrested by the Feds ...we missed you

They're not forms of socialism. They're capitalist whether or not they're eager to admit it. Obviously, there's some socialism there just like everywhere, but far less than normal. So how would you explain Scandinavia ranking better in competition, ease of making buisness, lower corruption, democratic participation and on and on...? We've had much much stricter government oversight and taxation than you guys for basically 150 years. Shouldn't we have devovled into totalitarian states by now? By your definitions...Scandinavian countries have for the most part free-markets. All of them rank high in freest market ratings I've ever seen. How is socialism incompatible with a market, assuming that by market you mean exchange of goods for money or other goods? I suppose there isn't any innate incompatibility between socialism and markets (although there are no shortage of socialists who oppose markets of any kind); the incompatibility is toward *free* markets which include things like private property and tolerance toward hierarchical institutions like private businesses. But isn't property a limiting factor into entering a market? Especially in cases of intellectual property. Some examples of the differences between the Scandinavian countries and the USA would be Very high taxes in the Scandinavian countries but excellent and working institutions like education and healthcare. This is very important ..its a bizarre thought for people that live outside the USA to think that there are people in the USA who suffer medically just because they have limited healthcare There are not many billionaires or super rich people in the Scandinavian countries compared to the USA ..of course there are rich people but there society is more equal The Scandanvians believe in the role of there goverment in most cases, they don't see it like many Americans do where you feel the federal goverment is interferring in the affairs of some states. For example when the US Supreme Court passed the gay marriage law many people outside the USA thought "about time ...welcome to the rest of the West " not realizing that many Americans felt the Federal government has gone to far Our friends who live there can disagree with me but those are some of the differences

So how would you explain Scandinavia ranking better in competition, ease of making buisness, lower corruption, democratic participation and on and on...? We've had much much stricter government oversight and taxation than you guys for basically 150 years. Shouldn't we have devovled into totalitarian states by now? By your definitions...Scandinavian countries have for the most part free-markets. All of them rank high in freest market ratings I've ever seen. How is socialism incompatible with a market, assuming that by market you mean exchange of goods for money or other goods? You see that's the salient point, you can have forms of socialism like the Scandinavian countries and it works and they have free markets and successful Capitalist industries But it would never work in the USA because in order for it work you would have to have the federal government get much more involved in your states and it seems many Americans don't like this idea

WOD we actually share many similar views on topics like the relevance of Capitalism and free markets So you mustn't think we differ in everything Venezuela was an experiment that went horribly wrong, it only was able to sustain itself under Chavez and that was due to his personality and ideological influence He believed he could create a new form of government that was vociferously anti-Western, socialist and had advantages that " no Western " country had ...like the almost free oil But he made the same mistake Russia made, he was dependent on Oil and never considered what would happen if the oil price crashed. He also brutally controlled or suppressed any political dissension...this was not sustainable and when he died the underlying problems became very noticeable and impacted Venezuela immediately But Venezuela was a unique socialist experiment,very few leaders would be so impudent around governance

Those "safe guards" will not prevent monopolies. They will be used to create and protect monopolies. Good business' do that on their own and the few buffoons who don't (when the option to do so is present) wont last long. Saying that the public sector is dysfunctional and the private sector is keeping the economy afloat is like saying that people in your country breathe oxygen. I'm not with you ? Are you saying its obvious that about South Africa ?

BTW, what traditions are we going to follow? Cuz I'm trying to praise the sun but it's cloudy outside. Oh Orog I was watching the opening of the American embassy in Cuba and they had this festival and these Cuban dancing girls ...and oh my hat these girls were smoking hot ,,,dude Cuban girls are nice, you should never have left

That seems detrimental to freedom. Or is that not a goal? I'll just leave it here and throw some seeds with the video below, i have derailed long enough. Whats your definition of " Traditionalism " ...please go into detail but in the context of Finland and what you would change and why ?

It's not like there's some dramatic backstory. I come from poverty stricken white trash and I read a lot. Okay thanks for sharing, I wasn't necessarily expecting a complicated story but if for example you said to me " I am from Serbia " then ultimately our views of the West would be very different. That doesn't mean we wouldn't get on of course So what you need to know about why I support the West and free markets is because I live and work in a continent that has the greatest levels of poverty in the world...and this poverty exists for several reasons but one of the main reasons is because of the lack of economic opportunities caused by the failure to implement free markets and lack of good governance So I see on a daily basis what happens in world without Capitalism ..its not pretty

You a strange one Zora What is your ideal system of government in the world at the moment ?

Ah yes the "my perfect version of capitalism would not have these flaws" meme. Do tell has there ever existed a period wherein capitalism did not rely on repression and authoritarianism or is this just limited to the realm of theory? Baro I have asked you this before but you never answered, I'm not trying to catch you out and you and I have very similar views on many topics so you do know I respect your view But where does this anti-Capitalism come from? Are you originally from Oz..what is your fundamental reason for this dislike of Capitalism..I am genuinely interested ?

No its fine I promise, its considered an average strip club in JHB...not that upmarket but the girls are friendly and don't mind you talking to them for hours if they enjoy your company and you dont act weird And for me if I can't talk to the girls there is no point so it works for me

I tell you something else coincidental since you seem interested I knew her from the strip club she worked at http://www.lollipoplounge.co.za/ But I never overdo the whole friendship with the girls ..I will party with them but not see too much of them because our lifestyles are fundamentally different and we have different goals

And capitalism is not? If you use the word capitalism to refer to the worst manifestations of the mixed-economy corporatism of today's Western world, then sure. If you use it to refer to an actual free-market system, then no, it would not be those things. Same to you. Corporatocracy and repressive monopolies are possible today because of a large government and its oversized jungle of rules and regulation, not in spite of it. Without regulation companies just get bigger and bigger, and explot their workers more and more. Wages get pushed lower and lower in order to compete, and people can't just buy from a smaller company that does things better because wages have been pushed so low that the only option is the cheaper prices of the giant company that can afford to sell for cheaper. I don't believe that economies should be planned, but I do think there need to be safeguards in place to protect workers and prevent monopolies, but at the same time, essential services such as power and health care should have a public option so everyone can afford it regardless of income or social status. Sure I don't disagree but no one wants that type of Capitalism I also agree that there needs to be a balance between profitability and working conditions but in my country we have a issue where the trade unions have become an aberration and are directly impacting the economic transformation. Our public sector is under huge pressure and many parastatals are dysfunctional but the private sector where I work is profitable and is actually what is keeping the country economically afloat But I do believe you should get paid what you contribute ...an uneducated mine worker despite the hard conditions can't expect a huge salary especially when you consider the global falling commodity prices and the Chinese economic slowdown Someone working a full time job shouldn't have to live in poverty either. I agree that someone who works longer with more education should make more, but a full time worker should be able to afford both food AND shelter. You see living in Africa we face very different social and economic challengers to what you are talking about and are use to, I'll try to explain Mine workers in South Africa for example are normally uneducated but hard working, most of them can't even read. We haven't mechanized our mines like you guys so our mine workers literally work underground for 8 hours breaking rock Over the last few years the various trade unions have become more and more unreasonable and intransigent. Despite the fact many of the mines aren't nearly as profitable as they use to be or they just aren't profitable the trade unions still demant 9%-15 % salary increases and other demands. They are basically anti-Capitalism and opposed to the large corporations and always criticize them and use rhetoric like " greedy white mine owners who abuse there workers " ....and I work in the private sector and for large corporations so even though I work in the financial sector I have immense sympathy for the mining sector as the trade unions have often wanted to target the financial sector, which is very profitable, and claim the banking sector needs to " transform" which is just annoying Anyway where I'm going with this story is in South Africa people like the mine workers always demand more and more and don't understand how a basic balance sheet works ...so they don't care if a mine is running at a loss and there protracted strikes effect investor confidence. So my issue is not about them being able to buy a nice house ..sadly thats just not there economic reality So how would you explain Scandinavia ranking better in competition, ease of making buisness, lower corruption, democratic participation and on and on...? We've had much much stricter government oversight and taxation than you guys for basically 150 years. Shouldn't we have devovled into totalitarian states by now? By your definitions... Edit: in any case - I'd love to see an America with much more power given back to the individual states.. Your strength is your pluralism, centralization doesn't seem to fit you as well as us of a more Germanic mindset.. Perhaps its some of that Italian ancestry, they never could handle it either.. Yes as I have mentioned you guys have the best system of government overall ..I really admire it but it requires a high employment rate. But your average American will consider your system too socialist and your government having too much control. I don't agree but I know the way our American friends think

I like the way you always read articles and understand the context...I was hoping you would read those links so now I can explain further Its a sad story what happened to Dustin, the guy that was killed, his wife died giving birth to his twins and he obviously went through a severe and understandable depression. Its unusual for a women in our modern age to die in childbirth ..anyway he met that stripper on a dating website Now of course I am not suggesting that people you meet on these dating websites are going to try to kill you but this is a example of how bad things can go So going back to my original point these websites are not always just about " dating " someone. This was the point I was making to Volo

No this was just an example ..but don't kid yourself cheating on your partner in this way using this type of website and opportunities can lead to many bad things....its not always harmless Check this story, I knew the guy who was killed http://ewn.co.za/2014/03/26/Accused-confesses-to-Dustin-Bloms-murder http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/ex-stripper-held-for-montecasino-murder-1.1582682#.VdeEBfmqoqM

But to not approve of moral choices people make doesn't have anything to do with it with being your business For example someone who hits his wife isn't really your business but you wouldn't approve right ? This is just about your opinion I never made an statement about morality or physical violence. "Cheating" isn't an area that I think is relevant to anyone concerned but those in relationships with those involved and the legal system (if needed) and any deities that might exist and/or care about that sort of thing. Yes, yes I was just using the physical violence as an example I misunderstood you, I thought you were saying you don't have an opinion on people who cheat on there partners as its not your business. I was then trying to explain, and clearly failing horribly, that you can still have an opinion on things that aren't your business

But to not approve of moral choices people make doesn't have anything to do with it with being your business For example someone who hits his wife isn't really your business but you wouldn't approve right ? This is just about your opinion

Well thats been one response but its highly unlikely these kids have seen there parents raping people ? Show me where I said anything about their parents. Well thats been one response but its highly unlikely these kids have seen there parents raping people ? Show me where I said anything about their parents. Oh I see..my bad I doubt kids this age are seeing rape in front of them but I see your point. I assumed you meant there parents because thats what other people are saying

Well, well, well. Looks like we got ourselves a cheater-lover here now. We don't take your kind kindly here. " a cheater-lover " ... thats funny

I hope I am not dragging down the level of decorum on this thread ..I just think sometimes one must take an opportunity when presented