BruceVC

So its Heritage Day today in South Africa and a public holiday....people are suppose to celebrate there culture and how its part of the new country But for some this day is the perfect time to complain how this " Democracy is a form of entrapment and slavery as white people still control the economy and they are unemployed " If you guys want to see what we go through as white South Africans who are part of the transformation and are committed to a non-racial economic country read these links....this is from this new website run by young disillusioned black people who have decided that the fault of everything in South Africa and African is due to white people,colonialism and what they call " white capital " ....they are trying to rediscover black consciousness and have decided the only way to way to do this is to completely blame white people and take no responsibility for any of the real problems on the continent....they think Robert Mugabe is a great African leader http://vanguardmagazine.co.za/from-usobukwe-uthi-ayihlome-to-ulilian-ngoyi-uthi-ayihlome-the-sole-face-of-our-political-discourse-cannot-continue-to-be-a-man/ http://vanguardmagazine.co.za/f-off-white-people-mbe-mbhele-on-his-ambivalence-at-upsetting-white-people/

This is the perfect time to discuss it, I dont want to keep bringing this up You see I refuse to believe what you saying because I believe if people want to live in Western countries then they can adopt....if you look at the Muslim community in the USA they have adopted very well. Ask Hurlshot But the European integration hasn't gone that well....I'm not sure what all the reasons are. I know some, like the French Algerians and the resentment But lets take the UK....its done as well as any country to be inclusive yet you still have these reprehensible clergy preachers literally verbally attacking the country....its a disgrace So how is it working in the USA? I can hazard a guess..in the USA they are more stricter about the integration criteria and you feel its a big deal to actually get in? Maybe the EU is accepting so its not appreciated?

I respect the way you will make a point on principle based on what you have experienced , even if that is not what most people are saying. For example I know you have spent time understanding and meeting your local Muslim community and your opinion of Muslims is absolutely reasonable and fair. I don't think anyone is suggesting that all Muslims have the same views but Ineth also makes some good points ...I just don't think he is going about making his point in the right way....I'll touch on that now because we should be able to discuss this without being seen as Islamophobic Yeah but in some religions, the violent fundamentalists can easily convince (especially young) believers that their way is indeed a "going back to the fundamentals!" by pointing at the example set by the religion's founder, whereas in other religions/philosophies they have to come up with auxiliary justifications. Isn't it commonly accepted now that "carpenter" was a mistranslation by Martin Luther, and that Jesus - if he existed - was most likely a stone quarry worker? (Considering a stone quarry apparently existed near where he grew up, and would fit the Greek word used to describe his day job). At least that's what I read in a 'popular history' article in an atheist magazine... Not that "stone quarry worker" wouldn't lend itself to jokes too, mind you... @ Ineth I think you raise some good points but can I make a suggestion? I have had this discussion many times where people want to raise a valid criticism or concern around areas in the Muslim world and they use the history of Islam to support that view But even if there historical reference is accurate you can see its never really accepted because its easy to find similar comparisons around Christianity or Western culture. Also there are many European countries that have thriving Muslim communities so its not nice to hear someone say, or think they are saying, something about Islam and use historical context to justify it I want to raise my concern with parts of the ME and Muslim countries. Now just to clarify something, we use to have a branch in the UAE and from that branch our company use to do work throughout the ME....but not all countries. Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Kuwait, Iran, Qatar, Bahrain and Jordan. Like most Western companies we use the UAE as our home base as its the most progressive and stable. The only reason I am mentioning this is because I want it to be clear I have worked in the ME and I have experienced the culture So I am a liberal and I take SJ seriously and the ME is basically very conservative with different degrees of how they implement there religious laws. Now as a foreigner I had to respect there laws and not complain....and I can promise you many things appalled me. Like there views on Homophobia ....its really considered anathema and its the death penalty in some countries They always treated us well as white, male expats in any country we went to but that was not enough for me as its obvious if you look hard enough to see the blatant discrimination at how other minority groups are treated. For example we use to do training on various software products and people would come from around the ME to attend the training course. One of our most talented consultants and trainers is a women and in the beginning when we got the contracts she would do the training...and I'll never forget her frantically calling our office to please get someone to go the training room on day 1 as she couldn't continue the training as none of the men would talk to her...not one. Its was annoying and insulting so we had then get someone else to run the course Then another example is we took one of our main customers which is a very successful private bank to a conference in Saudi. We were all standing at the entrance line at Riyadh airport with the customer and the CTO of this bank was a South African Indian. The Saudi airport security came and pulled him out our line, white people have there own line at the airport, and wanted him to stand in the line with the uneducated cheap migrant laborers that countries like Saudi bring in to do all the manual work..so this applies to Pakistanis, Indians and Afghanistan citizens. It was very embarrassing because this guy had 3 degrees and was highly educated but the Saudis couldn't tell the difference and just saw him as an " Indian laborer" I can give many more examples but I think my point should be clear ...now some expats are fine with this or don't seem to notice it but it bothered me immensely. But my view was " I can't change this type of thing so if these countries are able to function like this I have enough concerns in my own country ". I also thought social changes take time But recent events around the Arab Spring and other areas of disturbances in the ME, like the working conditions of laborers in Qatar working on the world cup, have clearly demonstrated that this system is definitely not working and various groups are unhappy on a number of levels Which brings me to my point...the outcome of the Syrian conflict has lead to the West and the EU having to now adsorb hundreds of thousands of people. And the reality is if the ME actually showed more responsibility and concern for fellow Muslims this wouldn't be happening. And its because they don't really care about basic human rights unless its there own citizens or countries they are aligned to Now you may not see the connection...but I can promise you if countries like Saudi Arabia or the UAE treated there laborers fairly they would happily take in the Syrians. But they don't care because they are use to doing what they want and no one really challengers them as until recently it made more sense to be a non-critical ally of a place like Saudi Arabia than to try to push things like gay rights or enforce a system where they don't abuse there migrant laborers So now what ....we have friction in the EU because countries like Germany think they doing the right thing by letting the refugees in and places like Hungary who are patently unable to manage the amount of Muslims coming in and think " they defending Christendom " ...but Hungary is just making the situation more untenable and actually adding to the overall chaos So in summary, the ME needs to start really seeing itself as a real Arab community and taking responsibility for its own Arab citizens . They meet in the Arab League and discuss matter relevant to the area but it seems just like the African Union when it comes to making meaningful commitments they lack the will or political interest I'm not saying they need to become more " Westernized " but they need to stop paying lip service to all these Unions that countries belong to and realize these Unions are not just about monthly meetings where the rulers meet to discuss how important there sovereignty is and how they resent " Western interference " yet they cant even agree or commit resources to fixing there own regional problems I'm tired of making excuses for groups like the AU and the Arab League and how ineffective they are when it comes to good governance and how this lack of effectiveness ultimately negatively impacts there own citizens. So whats the point of even having these organisations who claim to represent the aspirations of the region?

No chance ....Wals really use to dislike Oby, he had this almost unreasonable dislike of him. I can't believe people use to get so annoyed by Oby

Gorth what do you do for a living again?

The Gothic series was quite good for Magery but I thought you had a major disadvantage if you played as a Mage in Gothic 2....I battled to defeat the dragons

As usual an excellent speech by Obama....Volo I assume you feel guilty about all the criticisms you have had towards Obama? And yet now he is agreeing with the general GG sentiment about free speech and people not being silenced at places like Universities Remember that University where they wanted to create " safe places " and " safe rooms " for students who " might get upset by what Christina Sommers was going to say" ....it was pathetic

" like watching a train wreck in slow motion " I like your usage of metaphors when you make points, they generally apt but humorous I used another one you made when I described that new D&D game to my brothers, I said "its like a Ham sandwich..nothing wrong with that as long as all you want is a Ham sandwich "

Yeah I heard about this and its all because of Trump You know guys I have a question to all Republican supporters on this forum...Walker summarized my view "Mr. Walker’s pointed rebuke of Mr. Trump gave powerful voice to the private fears of many Republicans that the party risked alienating large parts of the electorate — Hispanics, women, immigrants, veterans, and most recently, Muslims — if Mr. Trump continued vilifying or mocking them as part of his overtures to angry and disaffected voters " Do you guys realize that you cannot win if Trump becomes the presidential candidate...or rather let me say its highly unlikely Trump by alienating the various minorities will be unintentionally the Republicans biggest problem....I have said this before but now its become a common criticism from within the Republican ranks. Does this not concern the Republican supporters on this forum...it should concern you because I assume this presidential race is not just about grandstanding and theatrics ...its about actually winning ?

Yeah in South Africa its very common

Sorry but I find it hard to believe any of you guys hate small talk.,...you guys engage in small talk basically every single day on these forums

Dude are you being serious about that Finnish dislike of small talk...that doesn't sound very nice. South Africans are very comfortable and enjoy making small talk....I would also battle to live in Finland. I make small talk all the time....but I dont see it as irrelevant as it helps to build a rapport with someone..normally a stranger. And that can be useful Here example how people in my home city will react when you try to small talk with us. Although you can get much more out if you offer couple rounds in bar. That video was really really funny And it explains what you mean perfectly reasonably when you say " Finns aren't really into small talk "

Its for a good cause....its not so bad and its only 1 or 2 days right. I am agnostic but I can see these types of events bring joy and happiness to many people. Plus this Pope seems like the real deal....he rejects wealth and opulence and washes the feet of inmates in South American jails. I do respect the man because he seems to be a really nice guy...except for his unfair criticisms of Capitalism Anyway I think its exciting for you, I hope you find someway to enjoy it

Dude are you being serious about that Finnish dislike of small talk...that doesn't sound very nice. South Africans are very comfortable and enjoy making small talk....I would also battle to live in Finland. I make small talk all the time....but I dont see it as irrelevant as it helps to build a rapport with someone..normally a stranger. And that can be useful

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice. //edit: They were Iraqis, lol I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't. Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ? -30 don't usually cause any big problems, schools and such start to close when it goes below -40. Public transport will operate if there aren't technical problems like Italian made trains that have problems to work in such temperatures. That sounds hectic to me....you must realize I dont think I have ever experienced anything lower than -10. And this is only from Skiing in Austria...so how cold is your average ski resort? Anyway the thought of -30 terrifies me a little. I am just imagining having to go to work in that cold...going to gym...meeting people at bars, it must be tough at times to motivate yourself

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice. //edit: They were Iraqis, lol I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe Finland will create much worse impression in time period from December to February when temperature here is averagely between -10 - -30 degree of Celsius and you see sun only couple hours in day. Culture shock that it causes for people from ME is enormous even when one is prepared to it not to mention people that aren't. Do people have to work if its -30 ?And what public transport, is it operational in this cold ?

Doesn't sound like them being much of refugees if an incoming cold winter and an economic downturn would make them think twice. //edit: They were Iraqis, lol I'm fine if less refugees come to Europe because they think life is hard in the EU...life is harder in the EU than people assume So Elerond and Meshugger if you guys are feeling guilty about Finland creating such a bad impression of the EU....don't feel guilty. People also need to see the negative of the EU that isn't even that severe

Obama can be pretty funny. Bad president, but decent comedian. Isn't this old....like 2011 old ? It seems to be that old, it has just resurfaced in social media, probably because it fits so well in current debates. Yeah it is relevant but it just goes to show how Obama has received the same unfounded and untrue criticisms for years Here is a newer one that is quite funny

Well, he's right in that way. Should push for Germany to foot the bill to move these people. Is he right? Its only really a " German " problem because they are prepared to absorb more Syrians but wouldn't it become a "European " problem if all countries agreed to take in more Syrians But I'm not justifying the fact Europe should take in any refugees. I'm just saying it doesn't seem reasonable to say " this is a German problem" This is an EU problem and needs consensus and a unified response

Obama can be pretty funny. Bad president, but decent comedian. Isn't this old....like 2011 old ?

Volo I have mentioned this before, you Canadians need to join the USA. Trust me it will only benefit your economy and political structures. You won't have Majors of towns, Rob Ford, smoking crack cocaine and keeping there jobs ...the USA will get the political discipline lacking in Canada working properly No thanks, Bruce. We don't want them. Shame ....poor Volo

Volo I have mentioned this before, you Canadians need to join the USA. Trust me it will only benefit your economy and political structures. You won't have Majors of towns, Rob Ford, smoking crack cocaine and keeping there jobs ...the USA will get the political discipline lacking in Canada working properly

There are plenty of people in certain states that want to leave and some are willing to sacrifice a few things to do it. The simple truth though is that it will never be allowed; ever. It's a moot point, "why" they want to leave. They don't get to leave. That's basically the truth. I should note that this isn't the way I want it to be. It's just the reality of the situation. Actually no, there are plenty of people who think they understand what an economic and social sacrifice leaving the Union would entail. But how could they possibly know considering the last time states left the Union was 150 years ago during the Civil War ....and the world has dramatically changed since then and we live in global world where countries are really interconnected on numerous levels I don't mean to attack your post but I always find it amazing that some people will argue for a particular state to secede and yet have no real or practical understanding of what the consequences would mean

It's a popular theory, but I'm not so sure anymore. What if the Taliban and Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic State are the Islamic equivalent to the Christian reformation? Remember, the Christian reformation didn't happen because they said "Hey, let's erase some of our religion's beloved commandments as a compromise to make the world a better place for nonbelievers!" It happened because they said "Why did we allow political leaders to invent so many rules and stuff for their own political gain in the name of our religion? That **** wasn't part of the teachings of the founder of our religion! Let's go back to what it was supposed to be originally!" And that sounds very very similar to the explanations that ISIL & co give to defend what they're doing. That may sound strange at first, but here's the thing: The founder of the Christian religion was* a hippie who walked around barefeet and encouraged/hugged/healed people, and steered clear of wordly geopolitics. The founder of the Muslim religion was* a warlord who conquered nations with military might, and engaged in murder, genocide, slavery, torture, rape. That's a really tough pill to swallow for many on the left, who prefer the a-priori answers that postmodernist relativism gives, to those yielded by the evidence. But if we are to understand & deal with ISIL and the like, I don't think we can afford to not explore that context, no matter how politically incorrect. And to preempt the obvious rebuttal: I know, I know, Christians throughout history found all kinds of rationalizations for murder, genocide, slavery, torture and rape, as well. But a call for "Let's go back to the origins, to the example of our religion's founder!" tends to push Christianity into a more benign direction - whereas it shouldn't be assumed to have the same effect on Islam. ---- *)According to the respective religion's own 'authoritative' sources. Only partially (at best) confirmed by actual historians. The likes of the Taliban, ISIS and Al-Qaeda can never be considered similar to the Christian revolution because these movements don't believe in the transformation or progression of the Islamic world. They want to take the Islamic world backwards to a medieval and benighted state For example they don't believe in equality, they don't believe in human rights, they don't believe in the advancements of science and they don't believe in education for all and more importantly they believe in the indivisible right of state and religious doctrine as means of reasonable government Why do we keep having to highlight that if you look at the ascendancy of the West over the last 500 years it should be quite clear that the West has been able to prudently separate the Church from the State around how its countries are managed . The Church is still relevant but its doesn't generally define government policy All these Islamic extremist groups want more religious control of how governments are run. This has been proven to lead to a lack of advancement and economic transformation

I'd love that, we'd finally stop being a flock of sheep and secede. Edit: Btw, style point, "Sharia law" is redundant. You do realize that seceding would mean facing the full power of the US military which in the case of preserving the Union would not hesitate to resort to total war if it needed to. The Texans would be forced to stay, or if that became impossible they'd all be killed, by nuclear strikes if needed. No state leaves the union; much less with it's people alive. This post made me laugh " No state leaves the union; much less with it's people alive " You see for me I would ask a more important questions " why would you really want to leave the Union and do people realize the negative economic impact that would follow any state that legally was able to leave " ?