BruceVC

Okay I see your point , funny enough there is a real view that a EU without Greece is a stronger EU under the circumstances. So if Russia wants to inherit the Greek issues in the unlikely event they leave the EU this is fine...it will be to there detriment But for me this isn't about geo-politics, this is about the best future for the Greek people and that lies with the EU and the painful but necessary austerity measures

You seem to think that Russia with its economic woes is just going to jump in to be able to give Greece billions of Euros ? The current Greek government has already been Russia to discuss this but we aren't privy to what was discussed yet clearly it wasn't ideal because Tsipras would have jumped ship to the Russians if he could have as he clearly doesn't like the EU that much And the Chinese? They have the money but generally don't interfere in these types of international events so I don't expect them to get involved ?

So I was reading these new required loans that Greece needs over the next 3 years For those people who are opposed to the lending of money to Greece and blaming Germany for actually lending money to Greece what is the next step around this? Where does Greece get this money from ? Because this has always been the issue, Greece has needed billions of Euros in relief to stay afloat yet when this money is then lent to Greece this is also criticized. So clearly institutions like the ECB and IMF are out this equation because they also been attacked for lending the money to Greece ....so what next?

Ideally they would have decided that Greece could not pay back their debt under any reasonable circumstance in 2008- they already have the largest primary (ie before interest payments) surplus at 5% in Europe and by a reasonable margin, plus the harshest austerity; if they aren't going to pay money back in those circumstances you've got to just face reality instead of continuing bullheadedly. Even more ideally in 2002 you either have a proper Euro zone with a proper common fiscal policy like aggregated borrowing and rules that are followed by everyone*, or decide to have no Euro. Since you cannot do either without a time machine and more political will than anyone in Europe has that leaves two options, reduce the debt to a reasonable level via a 'haircut', which is what happened for Germany post WW2, or let Greece leave the Euro on terms as amicable as possible and just take the damage from default. Increasing debt levels on Greece and increasing debt levels of your own when it cannot in any reasonable sense be paid back is simply stupid and benefits no one except those ideologically wedded to the ideal of the Euro for whom a grexit is simple anathema and the death knell of out and out integrationism. In the more general sense, there's no literal obligation on Germany to remember and reciprocate their debt being forgiven, that's a part of it being forgiven after all. Morally though? One of the fundamentals not just of 'good manners' but of diplomacy and all other forms of balanced relationships is reciprocity, the idea that you don't just do stuff to benefit yourself all the time and that when you benefit from another's action, well, one good turn deserves another. If Greece helped Germany out under circumstances where they'd be justified in saying "no" emphatically there is a moral obligation of reciprocity on Germany's part for precisely that reason. *And it should be noted, even the rules that do exist now are regularly ignored by nearly everyone. Fair enough, you make some good points. I guess we need to wait and see

Really Bruce, even for you that is particularly... unique* perspective given how many Greeks the Germans outright killed, let alone the damage they did to the country and its economy over WW2. Blame me for mentioning Lidice, I guess, even if I couched it as a economic comparison I clearly should have used Kondomari/ Kalavryta/ Kandanos instead- just on Crete, mind you. Just in case anyone doesn't know the details, Germany declared war on and conquered Greece during WW2 with commensurate deaths in combat, mass murder, starvation, destruction of property, mass appropriation and the like. 12 years after that they forgave Germany their debt. Bruce is right, that's not really similar circumstances- half a million (7% of pop) Greeks died as a result of WW2, I'm pretty sure not a single German has died due to issuing stupid loans that can't be paid back. BTW Bruce, won't get much more west than Greece, cradle of western civilisation and that. Oh,* * I am not looking at this whole Greek crisis in the context of WW2 or what the Nazis did. That is actually a complete distraction that seems to be gaining some semblance of support based on that excellent article Jaded posted. That article did raise some good points but it hasn't fundamentally changed my view on what Germany is expecting from Greece But just to add something to your point, after the disastrous implementation of the Versailles Treaty the European countries realized that punitive economic steps actually led to the rise of Hitler. So yes I agree the Greeks were magnanimous to be so reasonable to the Germans 10 years after WW2 but that also made economic sense. Sometimes integration is a better way to get a country like Germany to become a important member of Europe again. And that was the right decision considering how Germany now contributes to the overall EU. So without sounding dismissive of how the Greeks suffered in WW2 I still don't see how what Greece did for Germany in the 1950's should somehow influence what Germany does now around the Greek bailouts and austerity expectations? Honestly tell me what you would like Germany to do? I am going to be honest but I think most of this criticism from the European members on these forums towards Germany is actually based unintentionally on something that article mentions that Jaded posted. I think there is a strange and historical resentment towards Germany from many Europeans because end of the day some people don't like how the EU strategies seem to be influenced by a seemingly "belligerent and forceful " Germany .." we beat the Germans in two world wars but now they are telling us what to do " mentality I can understand this but its misplaced. Germany has become an economic powerhouse ..not a military one. The only ideology they are concerned with is good governance and member states adhering to necessary austerity. People should be grateful that Germany is being so forceful around the Greek issue..someone has to. What do you think would happen if the other countries in Europe undergoing austerity also had far left parties come to power and they also just decided they wanted to rewrite the austerity agreements. This contagion would lead to serious issues for the EU and its economic stability So once again Germany has to be relatively strict with Greece because of the consequences of them deciding not to continue to pay the required loan amounts. That would lead to a dangerous precedent and set a very bad example for other countries.

You see for me this post has some accurate and inclusive points but it seems to focus on the wrong considerations around the Greek crisis Why do we feel the need to blame a country like Germany for becoming the most dominant economy in Europe despite losing its holistic global identity for decades after WW2 and having to recreate its financial institutions. Yet despite all this they persevered and have a strong export based economy. I often hear people say " the EU was great for the Germans as it benefited there economic model...but not so good for everyone else in the EU like the PIGS " Why? Why couldn't any other country have also adopted an export model that worked well in the EU. Its almost like we are blaming the Germans for having the diligence and work ethos to become efficient in the EU ? Greece wanted to join the EU, they weren't bribed (?) and didn't need much motivation and there is evidence that they did exaggerate there economic status to join. You can't expect the Germans to take responsibility for ensuring the Greeks were being honest about what they brought to the EU? You did note IMO exactly why Greece is in this mess where you said And Greece, in particular, has been especially profligate with this credit-- it used it to fund a huge, well-compensated, well-pensioned civil service, and to avoid serious efforts at tax enforcement. And nobody cared until the '08 financial crisis taught us that banks couldn't just hedge away all their default risks anymore" These are the fundamental causes, the other things you mentioned I'm sure contributed but they weren't as relevant as the mismanagement above Lets expect countries like Greece with such ancient history and knowledge to at least manage its own institutions properly. And the criticism about the initial large loans that Greece asked for and now has become the fault of the various institutions like the IMF, Germany and Euro Central Bank for lending them the money seems utterly bizarre. If Greece asked for these loans and was prepared to adopt the austerity that was expected why shouldn't the money have been given to them. Imagine how embarrassing for the Greeks and condescending it would have been if the Germans has said in the beginning of the loan cycle " no we don't believe you can pay us back, we won't give you the benefit of the doubt and just kick you out now " Come on guys countries really need to take responsibility for there own actions and decisions....and lets stop blaming the Germans for having one of the few very functional economies in the EU I would like to advice you to read up more on the subject. I'd like to point you to der Spiegel, which is obviously written by Germans, who frequently point out how things are a little more complicated than "Hur dur, the poor hard working Germans lent all that money to the lazy, sneaky, greedy Greeks, and now they refuse to pay it back!!!". This is an interesting article, for example: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/german-power-in-the-age-of-the-euro-crisis-a-1024714.html I am sorry thats what you think I am suggesting, I am saying the Germans are not at fault with providing loans to Greece and trusting them to stick to there austerity agreements But thanks for the article, I'll read it

Okay but where is the relevance to the current Greek crisis? Are you saying that Germany was given a structured way to repay debt and Greece showed them some compromise and good spirt at the time Do you think this should motivate Germany to do the same now with Greece due to this historical decision? I can see the point but the circumstances are vastly different

That's unacceptable, you will buy both games on Day 1 or people will be forced to call you out as a " fake gamer " ...imagine the shame

Don't know about especially profligate, their debt: GDP ratio didn't spike until 2008 and didn't significantly increase from that of their Euro accession so their borrowing was keeping pace with growth. It was retrospectively stupid, massively so, but it was a retrospective stupidity nearly everyone had over the equivalent period and which they were at least somewh,at encouraged towards by the same people who are complaining now about bailing them out. Fundamentally, few nations paid back debt in the early-mid 2000s as they should have, and wherever they were. And I guess I'd also chirp in again there should be an obligation on lenders to lend with some responsibility as well as for borrowers to borrow responsibly, and significant consequences if they don't. The tax enforcement thing is also a bit overstated, though obviously more is better for their situation. I was rather surprised myself but in 2009 Greece's black/ grey economy was almost exactly 20% (wikipedia says 25%, but their maths is simply wrong, herp derp) of GDP with well regulated and efficient Germany having 15% GDP grey/ black economy. There isn't that much room for improvement, certainly not as much as there is generally implied to be. Yeah I knew without absolute certainty that you would be one of the people blaming the Germans and basically suggesting that the EU is fundamentally flawed. At least you are consistent with the anti-Western diatribe . I know whenever a discussion about the state of a situation in the world exists, be it Ukraine, Serbia or Syria, its always the West fault hey Zora ?

You see for me this post has some accurate and inclusive points but it seems to focus on the wrong considerations around the Greek crisis Why do we feel the need to blame a country like Germany for becoming the most dominant economy in Europe despite losing its holistic global identity for decades after WW2 and having to recreate its financial institutions. Yet despite all this they persevered and have a strong export based economy. I often hear people say " the EU was great for the Germans as it benefited there economic model...but not so good for everyone else in the EU like the PIGS " Why? Why couldn't any other country have also adopted an export model that worked well in the EU. Its almost like we are blaming the Germans for having the diligence and work ethos to become efficient in the EU ? Greece wanted to join the EU, they weren't bribed (?) and didn't need much motivation and there is evidence that they did exaggerate there economic status to join. You can't expect the Germans to take responsibility for ensuring the Greeks were being honest about what they brought to the EU? You did note IMO exactly why Greece is in this mess where you said And Greece, in particular, has been especially profligate with this credit-- it used it to fund a huge, well-compensated, well-pensioned civil service, and to avoid serious efforts at tax enforcement. And nobody cared until the '08 financial crisis taught us that banks couldn't just hedge away all their default risks anymore" These are the fundamental causes, the other things you mentioned I'm sure contributed but they weren't as relevant as the mismanagement above Lets expect countries like Greece with such ancient history and knowledge to at least manage its own institutions properly. And the criticism about the initial large loans that Greece asked for and now has become the fault of the various institutions like the IMF, Germany and Euro Central Bank for lending them the money seems utterly bizarre. If Greece asked for these loans and was prepared to adopt the austerity that was expected why shouldn't the money have been given to them. Imagine how embarrassing for the Greeks and condescending it would have been if the Germans has said in the beginning of the loan cycle " no we don't believe you can pay us back, we won't give you the benefit of the doubt and just kick you out now " Come on guys countries really need to take responsibility for there own actions and decisions....and lets stop blaming the Germans for having one of the few very functional economies in the EU

Sounds about right

I believe there are conditions to use the Euro but the Dollar is the acceptable global currency due to its traction that any country can use if there own currency collapses, like Zim Yet Mugabe still attacks the USA for "imperialism and interference " ....the hypocrisy annoys me

Don't me wrong, I agree the Greece issue is primarily self-inflicted. But I still don't want them to leave the EU....they just need to stick to austerity Remember I live in Africa, I cannot just ignore countries that have decided on policies that hurt there economy and or mishandled there finances

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided Nope, look at notorious bankrupt Argentina... or even at the frigging Iceland (even though it is smaller). Bankrupcy will not devastate their economy for 20 years, in fact, it actually might help them out in the long run. Sure first 1-2 years will be bad, BUT, their tourism will becoame more affordable and attractive to even more people, their new/old currency will help their export and bring the economic growth, probably in the 2nd year, and will drive their economy up. People will actually have to work, instead of sitting in various governmental parasite institutions, and thus in the long run their workforce might become more competitive. Bankruptcy is not the end of the world for a country. Sure, you will always be viewed on the market a bit higher risk, and pay extra %s on your future bonds, but that's basically it. You just need to be smart about it. (I do not really have time to get all the data about Argentina and verify every bit of it, but they surely turned around their last bankruptcy into an overall better situation than it was before that) Was Argentina kicked out some economic union and forced to use there original currency? I am not talking about bankruptcy for Greece. I am talking about something much worse, They would return to the Drachma that would be worthless

I have seen some really informed people suggesting that Greece should leave the EU as people are tired of there intransigence and lack of compliance with austerity. But for me Greece leaving the EU would effectively crash there banking institutions and who would now lend them money? You can forget the IMF as they owe them billions..maybe the BRICS bank but Greece would be considered a high risk and dishonest in its payment strategy. So Greece leaving the EU could devastate there economy to a point where they may spend 15-20 years recovering from it. Its a huge deal and really needs to be avoided

Volo are you sure you played the English version of W3? You probably played the Polish version and didn't understand the dialogue and that's why you didn't enjoy it?

This is an interesting and relevant topic but you are misunderstanding a few things or it may be you are ignoring them because of your personal view of the EU and austerity When the various countries in the EU were instructed to undergo austerity the conditions varied from country to country but there were certain expectations that these countries had to comply with. Some may say " but who decides austerity ". An economic powerhouse like Germany with input from other countries like France was perfectly suitable to put pressure on these wayward countries but the intention as you know was never to punish these countries, it was to address the extreme economic pressure that was self-inflicted The expected austerity cuts were things like reduce government spending , more efficient tax generation, a rise in pension age, reduce government pay and other similar prudent steps. None of these should seem anathema but reasonable considering the circumstances The Greeks have been the worst to adopt this austerity and have ostensibly failed to meet several expectations that they agreed to. I can understand austerity is hard for you Europeans but the reality is it needed to be done Concerning this badly timed referendum I am of the opinion that there are people in SYRIZA that genuinely believe Greece would be better off outside the EU so they probably asked for this bizarre referendum in order to sabotage the negotiations and get Greece kicked out the EU. And lets not kid ourselves the patience of the EU for the Greeks attempts to sometimes obfuscate the austerity objectives have almost run out The Greeks in the latest austerity measures were told to improve tax collection and change the retirement age. Both of these were apparently red line items for SYRIZA that they wouldn't compromise on but now they are prepared to and this is good news SYRIZA is a populist party that came to power on the promise to end austerity. This was a completely unrealistic expectation and as we have seen cannot be implemented without Greece being kicked out the EU. I have to be honest I am surprised the Greeks voted them in on this specious election commitment, I would expect certain African countries to believe this type of rhetoric as they are less informed about the reality of economics than the Europeans If Greece does vote NO then this would be the real start of them leaving the EU....and this would be economic hell for them and I doubt will happen. So I'm sure they will vote Yes and recommit to the necessary austerity So need to worry about contagion....Greece will stay in the EU

citation needed

I voted but you cannot expect people not to whine as they are different games so the comparison is unfair

Sure I'll respect your wishes but anyone actually bothering to read this will see you were disingenuous..." I want an apology " ....seriously ? Why don't we rather go skipping through the fields ..hand in hand

Haven't been for a while, but I enjoy the off-strip casinos as much as the wretched-excess monuments. The ones with gold lightbulb marquees and buffets for retired people. Next time I go, I'd like to catch a Supercross race, or bomb Natties with rednecks at the Speedway. No I wouldn't. Yes I would. The dirtbikes anyway. Monster Energy girls carry signs on the track that say "30 Seconds to Go" which somehow seems familiar and shameful at the same time. Why do you guys leave out the strip clubs ? Are you embarrassed...please dont tell me you guys did nothing similar to that in Vegas

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved You did accuse me of pursuing a false agenda at the end of the last thread but one, and I am perfectly calm and not emotionally invested at all, if you wish to be a coward and run away from an argument that you are losing that is fine. I expected nothing else from you. Since you are now proven to be incapable of engaging in factual discourse, have still not apologised for calling me a liar nor provided any evidence that I pursue a false agenda or offered an apology for that, I am going to ignore you again. One cannot get any kind of answer out of you nor expect any kind of honesty so discussion is pointless. Please don't try and engage in dialogue with me again, thank you. Nonek you need to understand I do this for a living, as in RL Your intentions were so transparent, you had no real interest in debating with me. You were never debating in good faith...but I did enjoy this little chat

I am not taking credit for anything. I made a statement of fact, whether the initial accussation against Gamergate that your side made was absurd or not, the fact remains that the diversity of race and gender amongst Gamergate was proven by the #notyourshield campaign. The harassment accusation was disproven by analysis of Twitter. These are simply two facts, whatever you think of them is irrelevant, they disproved false accusations and were victories for Gamergate against those whom were mislabelling it. They are facts, part of the five I have provided, you have provided none, thus you are proven to not be interested in pursuing factual discourse. That is the end of the matter. Now apologise for calling me a liar and prove that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise again, you have spent five pages skirting this issue and proving that you are both dishonest and unable to answer any question posed to you. Give me a straight answer for once, stop avoiding the issue like a coward. Oh I never said you were pursing a false agenda..I said sometimes you use grandstanding and hyperbole I am going to wait for someone else who is trustworthy to comment on who is correct, you and I are too emotionally involved

Nonek ...no offense but I am not sure if you understand my question. If you don't mind I just want confirmation from someone else that points 4 & 5 are indeed examples of a GG victory...I just don't see it? I repeat Gamergaters were labelled en masse as misogynist and racist, this was disproven by the #Notyourshield campaign, thus Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. Gamergate was labelled a harassment campaign, this was disproven by independent Twitter analytics, thus once more Gamergate scored a victory against those whom were misrepresenting it. This is simple and undeniable. I have provided five factual statements, you have provided none, thus I dismiss your claim that you are interested in factual discussion. Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong Not good enough, apologise and please provide evidence that I am pursuing a false agenda or apologise for that as well. I know you think I'm avoiding answering you but I'm actually helping you .....to say " we proved that GG wasn't full of sexists " was obvious. I engage with most of you guys everyday, I know you aren't sexist or misogynistic. Anyone who suggested that the thousands of people who flocked to GG were all sexist is making an utterly absurd and unsubstantiated statement...many of them were indeed white,male gamers but that is fine and understandable Please stop trying to take credit for something that was obvious

Oh I take back that I said you are a liar, that was wrong