BruceVC

Sure, but lets be fair here. You are a far more intelligent and confident person than most of the black people who suffered under Apartheid ....despite the fact you have also had tough experiences you came out stronger in many ways and that worked for you. So I get your personal view of not having much sympathy because if you can do it you believe others can...and in most cases that would be true but not in this case ....you need to accept you are Cuban....Cubans are not Africans

Yeah, how dare those plebs use their own reasoning and moral intuition to discuss things, and assume that the burden is on the accuser to bring across the meaning of his/her accusation. Don't they know that when accused with a fancy made-up word, they're supposed to duck and nod and go quietly read the Marxist sociologist elite's treatises on the topic and Listen And Believe™... You funny Ineth but I am hoping Baro does respond with RL information and personal experiences. I believe he has something to add....well he always alludes to it I have to be honest I would have thought you would be one of the people who understood my post and reasoning?

To be honest the first time I heard the word Romance was in a Bioware game ....but I'm South African so what do I know about Romance ?

White privilege is simply the politically correct term for "racism vs white people" Its an excuse used by the lazy and incompetent to justify their shortcomings by dumping the blame on those who try to be more successful. To use an example that my mother encountered. There was a imigrant girl in the school she works as a teacher. In her old school she was treated with contempt and was bullied just because she was a foreigner. When she came in my mother's school, she met a friendlier enviroment, the rest of the kids played with her, nobody bullied her, she made friends and could finally focus on her studies again. She happens to be very smart so she was getting top grades and that, unfortunatelly, made her arrogant. She started seeing herself as the queen of the class, scorned others for having lower grades, acted all high and mighty etc. That thing made the other kids dislike her and slowly she lost all her friends and was left all alone. However she did not realise it was this sort of behaviour that was the problem, even when she was warned about it by my mother, and still keeps it up, thinking that the other kids became racist overnight and blaming them for everything. She may not be lazy or incompetent, but she used racism as a scrapegoat to justify her lack of manners and the result of it Also to use a USA example, the "gangsta culture" has been associated with black people because the vast majority of it's promoters are black singers. That fact makes it both appealing to the young blacks and a reason for everyone else to see any black person (especially the young) as a potential gang member out for blood. They cause the problem themselves but they call others racists to dump away responsibility for the monster they made. I'm not saying racism does not exist but not everything happens because of it... if you are looking for trouble and you find it, it's not the trouble's fault whatever form it may have. I know many people may see it like this but it is more complicated than this especially when you consider a country like South Africa Yes I am exposed to " racism " from some black South Africans but its not meaningful and is more a sign of frustration Its hard to explain but I'll try. Last night when I phoned in to that first radio station I was absolutely confidant that I didn't need to accept white privilege because I really believe in the multiracial transformation of the country and I felt that guilt was pointless considering all the effort I put to ensure racial harmony Anyway I asked the black talk show host " what is white privilege and what am I suppose to do about it " ...he honestly didn't know and said he felt it was just black people being racist themselves because obviously they know me and not all black people believe it Then a few other people phone in, I was expecting the usual semi-aggressive black people trying to use strange logic to justify this concept of " white privilege " which obviously wasn't real Then an older black guy, he sounded in his 50's, phoned in and in broken English he started trying to make a point. He was actually very emotional ...he was in tears and he basically kept saying " why can't white people accept white privilege ...thats all we want them to say....why can't they accept it " but obviously he didn't say it as obviously. The talk show host who is a very bright guy didn't understand him and kept asking him to repeat himself and he kept trying to make his point until finally he made it and I suddenly understood This older black guy is sadly a causality of Apartheid, he will never get a job as he was never properly educated under Apartheid and in the new South Africa he is also not really marketable due to his age and lack of experience . He understands that he is now free but what is freedom without a semblance of economic freedom yet despite the fact he is basically a shadow in this new South Africa he still listens to a radio talk show where people discuss new opportunities and how to improve the country. He didn't ask for anything....he didn't want to verbally insult me ( which never bothers me )...he just wanted me to accept white privilege because for him this was all that mattered. He didnt have anything yet that obviously was like some kind of important justification for all his suffering. It hit me emotionally really hard when I thought how good my life is yet I also realized " look what we (I dont mean me I mean white South Africans who supported Apartheid ) did ...look what Apartheid has done. It has truly destroyed the consciousness and identity of people "....most white people are actually fine in the new South Africa yet we forget there is whole generation of " lost" black people like him So how could I not accept my role in white privilege...thats all he was asking for and it was valid and true when you are confronted by it. I am probably not explaining it properly but it was very emotional moment for me. All these years and all these insults and people trying to force me to admit something I always dismissed ..and just like that I could see it And the next talk show host made a similar point.

Yes you are correct, the talk show hosts absolutely dismissed how I was treated when I explained how I was treated. It honestly didn't bother me but for them its the principle Says the guy living in the first world country, you may know the theory but I live the practical . Also I would think black South Africans would understand it? But I assume you aren't talking to me, I know you have some good opinions on this. Can you share them as I am interested. Also since it is now relevant since you raised it but what is your connection to these types of SJ issues? Are you a minority? I don't mean to pry but I have been very honest about my connection so it would be great if other people also involved could share there connection

Okay good, I was just worried it was a book There is a proven connection between cynicism and serial killers ....so you just rather play it safe

Um... no. It seems you completely misunderstand me. I judge other fantasy RPG components on their believabilty. That ties into the whole 'immersion' thing (a horribly overused term, and one I am even loath to use, but it fits here. And please don't confuse this with 'realism'). As for satisfying, that also applies to other RPG elements, especially the story. If that's not satisfying, I may not complete the game - and if I do I certainly won't recommend it. Same with writing - and that covers romances, btw. Have I ever said "I don't like the way this dungeon was designed or how this dragon attacked me, it was unsatisfying "? Yes, I have. The former, many times. The latter, not exactly in that fashion, but I've complained about the battle with a particular dragon (to adhere to the example) on at least one occasion, stating I found it not fun and very unsatisfying because of the way the encounter was designed as well as the fact that the creature's difficulty relied pretty much solely on an overstuffed health bar. Yes, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, although I'm not sure you're disagreeing with what I'm actually trying to say (and if I'm unclear, I take full responsibility for that and extend my apologies). Oh.,,,my bad ? I was told you never complain about dragons in RPG...which dragon fight did you find unrealistic

Malc do you really think someone of your.....cynical nature ....should be reading books about serial killers ? Its probably not a good idea...rather read news stories ?

You can't help but not like this type of post ..you put so much effort into the point and I respect that But I don't agree with the general sentiment because you are ultimately doing the same thing that critics of Romance do that go the intellectual route. You are judging Romance in RL metrics and thats unfair. The moment someone says " Romance isn't believable " I know they are missing the reason people like Romance Honestly tell me one other thing in a game like DA:I that you judged on "believability "" ? Well I haven't played DA:I yet, so I really couldn't say, to be honest. It's not about believability for me though, it's complication with other mechanics and game tone in general. If romances have no effect on anything else in the game, then they feel like insignificant fan-fiction fluff. If they have too strong an effect, then they feel like requirements that lead to people half-heartedly doing them for in-game benefits. If they're too realistic in terms of restrictions and after effects then people who came by for a flight of fantasy get weirded out, and if they're too fantastic and unrestricted then you get people who find them immersion breaking. I'm not saying romance can't be done well in a game, or that it's not especially fitting in a game like PoE. Actually it's the exact opposite. I think the folks at Obsidian are probably one of the few crews of devs I'd trust to do a Romance feature correctly in a game. But that said, the multitude of potential complications such a feature brings with it just leads me to believe that not including the option was a rather rational and safe choice. Like I said, if Obsidian decides they have a way to do this feature properly, I'd be down to see what their take on it would be. I especially think it'd be a good feature to add considering the Stronghold, especially since I think the Stronghold could use a lot of expansion in terms of mechanics in general (and that I'd like to see way more capturable characters so I could still have a fighting character who's a lot less murdery, and lots of interesting King of Dragon Pass kind of decisions that being a newly minted lord would entail), and having a spouse at your house dovetails well into a better stronghold feature. So I'm nominally pro-romance, just not going to push it because I get why it's not in, and personally, there are other features I'd like to see in the game higher on my personal priority list. I'll leave the advocating to the more interested parties like yourself. So what is interesting is I believe that Obsidian also just don't like Romance and or see them as a distraction from more important features. Also I don't believe they are particularly partial towards the BSN Romance crowd judging there games on similar criteria to what you mentioned. But of course they don't want to offend people by saying " we don't like Romance " so they gave a reason that who in there right mind is going to question...they showed humility " we wont have Romance in PoE because we feel we can't do them properly " (yeah right like us Promancers have high standards ) But end of the day we respect decisions they make they feel are appropriate. For me they are the developers, not me Let me ask that question about DA:I differently. Don't you enjoy interacting and getting to know your party members? If you do enjoy that in a RPG why is you enjoy it and more importantly why do you do it ? For me I always talk to my party members because it makes our interaction more realistic and adds to the RP experience of the overall journey . So I get to know them within the game and that increases the sense of immersion as they become more than just robots I use only in combat...like my party in IWD

You can't help but not like this type of post ..you put so much effort into the point and I respect that But I don't agree with the general sentiment because you are ultimately doing the same thing that critics of Romance do that go the intellectual route. You are judging Romance in RL metrics and thats unfair. The moment someone says " Romance isn't believable " I know they are missing the reason people like Romance Honestly tell me one other thing in a game like DA:I that you judged on "believability "" ?

Beer sounds lovely...cheese even better I'm not really a shrink so I don't feel like I misread you

No you make some good points even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you say You also seem to be making some spurious justifications for not liking Romance, for example you say "I've played some Bioware RPGs, and without fail the characters who aren't romance options end up being better written and more interesting " ...really? Lets consider this point for a second .... Isabella wasn't an interesting personality in DA2? She was probably the most memorable person ?

I have to admit I would HATE to be having a debate against Kgambit and Gromnir ....they are both far too analytical, intelligent and dogmatic Shame poor Zora....the only consolation is I tend to agree with him that this negotiation is the right decision for the region. And it feels weird to agree with Zora because our core political views are so different But this is one case where my American friends are not seeing the strategic big picture. And I can understand that as NO Republicans will agree with this deal for various reasons ....

Okay so I clarified my point and I settled any misunderstandings. But I also have accepted that white South Africans do have white privilege after listening to the talk show host explain a few things about how black South Africans were effected from Apartheid What I overlooked is even if Apartheid didn't give all white people an economic advantage we have family structures that go back generations ...and the reality is Apartheid really devastated the black family structure. So just from that perspective I have to recognize white privilege from a South African perspective ...of course this doesn't change the issues we face now but we need to admit it

Hi Cantie " waves " You have a really bad habit of vanishing from the forums without saying goodbye ? Please tell us when you are going to go away....we miss you Cantie do you really think that is the reason you don't like Romance? I'm a psychiatrist in RL and I can guarantee you that's just a defensive mechanism you say that you have convinced yourself is the reason. Most people say something similar about Romance because to say the real reason sounds silly...and thats the interesting part of this debate The main reason people are opposed to Romance is because they think its something incongruous and weird, they feel uncomfortable about the fact there is something that exists in RL that is suddenly part of a fantasy RPG. Add to that the sometimes uncomfortable perceived connection that some promancers have towards Romance, for example check the Romance threads on BSN, and this makes people want to distance themselves from it...because suddenly the game has something that crosses a boundary. " How can people care about Romancing some pixel generated person in a game ...get a real life GF or BF " Think about it my friend....and I won't even charge you for my session because I like you and I don't want you to create false justifications for not liking Romance

Yeah , how much would you pay for the video card I'm getting in the USA ? I am paying $400 Around 250$ at NEWEGG or TigerDirect. Nice card. Thanks, you see how we get ripped off in South Africa? It annoys me that the retailers charge so much margin its almost double the price

Yeah , how much would you pay for the video card I'm getting in the USA ? I am paying $400

Ignoring emotions is kind of the definition of being rational. That's not actually how rationality works. Emotions provide people with motivations - rationality is the task of addressing one's emotional motives in a way that is self-consistent with what one knows. Without emotions, there isn't even a reason to be rational, much less to be anything else. A person who finds romances in games to be un/pleasant, and therefore does/n't want them to be present in those games is being rational, regardless of whether or not that's an experience anyone else shares. (This post is brought to you by existentialism - it first arrives on the stage, and then you get to decide what to make of it.) tl;dr Spock wasn't logical, he was just a lazy utilitarian. Yes but what if the reasons for not wanting Romance are illogical, this would be irrational So if you say " I don't like Romance because they are not satisfying or believable " ......this is illogical because why would you seriously judge the dialogue options of a fantasy RPG on a level of satisfying or if they are believable ( dont get me wrong I would love to date Viconia in RL but its not going to happen )? Its a game ....come on guys . Read a good book if you want to judge the dialogue on such a meticulous level Or maybe watch Notting Hill for some good and believable Romance ?

Yeah that is actually an ideal Romance implementation ...so you are clearly a Romance iconoclast ..basically a hater I will go even further. If there are going to be romances for us female types hire a female creative writer over 25 and have her do at least some of the writing. Better yet hire three women, one under 25, one 25 to 40 and one over 40. !!! Now you are getting it ...you go girl

Good point Barti, my previous card was Gigabyte AMD Radeon 5800 2GB What are the most relevant components on a video card that allows you to set maximum settings ?

Yeah that is actually an ideal Romance implementation ...so you are clearly a Romance iconoclast ..basically a hater

That is very relevant....thanks for sharing. I work in software but I am not very familiar with how graphic cards allow you to improve graphic settings, I am basing my view on my current card having 2GB and can run GTAV on about 60 % performance. What do I need to consider ?

My personal aversion is quite rational, actually. I've found almost invariably that romance options in games are just awkward, not believable, and generally unsatisfying. Of course, there's always the option to just not bother with them if they're in the game, I understand that. But if it's there, I'll likely follow it to see where it goes, in the (usually vain) hope it will be good. I've yet to be overly impressed. So I'd much rather the time spent writing and developing romances were spent elsewhere. Its ironic but you have unintentionally highlighted my point ...for many people they base there dislike of Romance on factors that they normally wouldn't judge other fantasy RPG components on. So we now judge Romance on it being " believable or satisfying " Have you ever said ..."I don't like the way this dungeon was designed or how this dragon attacked me, it was unsatisfying " Anyway I am not fighting with you ...I have heard all these reasons. We can happily agree to disagree

Yeah it was a shock.....I was really surprised because it was the last thing I expected....but its fine. I have learnt how to avoid it next time

Gfted1 I imagine you are wracked with "white privilege guilt " ? It must be hard carrying around that messiah complex. But no, I bear no guilt of my forefathers. You sure, no judgement here ? But just to be clear, I feel absolutely no guilt because I had nothing to do with Apartheid. I was too young. I feel terrible for the dehumanizing impact Apartheid had on people and I believe it was an abhorrent system. But thats not the same as guilt My commitment to the future of a prosperous multiracial South Africa is more about the fact it can work if we all contribute and understand our level of responsibility as white people