BruceVC

Are you seriously trying to make an argument that unemployment isn't a key indicator of economic health outside the US because the president doesn't rely on it to campaign? Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before. No, I was judging it based on Iceland which did not do austerity but rather went for stimulation. And it worked out far better for them than austerity did for the successful example you gave, let alone how its worked out for Spain and Greece. There was a complete recovery , or more complete, for Iceland. You know how they pulled it off? They forgave mortgage debts, indicted private banks rather than bailing them out, and provided support for the poor. Which is exactly the opposite of what EU austerity has done over the last five years and judging by the effects it's clear that austerity does not result in growth and is an awful idea for a depressed economy. No what I am saying is various metrics are used to measure the effectiveness of austerity and umemployment is just one of them " Unemployment and real wages are the key indicators for the economic health of citizens. Private corporations being able to turn a larger profit is a hollow victory while half of young people are jobless and what jobs there are pay less than before" not when a country is undergoing austerity. Check this link http://www.bbc.com/news/10162176 So you will see the austerity objectives and they are all based on structural reforms to achieve two objectives ...to return stability and then growth to there economies They were not concerned with unemployment, that will come later as the free market naturally seizes opportunities So you cant see austerity in the light of unemployment By the way why are you on the Greek side? Why are you defending there failure to reform. You live in Texas, most people you know understand the EU perspective and are more loyal to it, don't be an ideological traitor now KP

I think you misunderstand me. I personally have a low threshold for what I consider scumbaggery and Cosby definitely fits the bill (see what I did there). As do all pedophiles, obviously. But thankfully for all concerned, they do not allow me to mete out justice, because I probably would not be able to strip out emotion and look at things objectively. That's why you must let the judicial system run its course, criminally. Socially/professionally hes already a dead man walking. I meant to say I know the majority of you guys aren't supportive of Cosby in any way ....you just not passing judgement like me I didn't mean to imply anything or make you feel guilty

Again you are not going into the links he posted or the one i posted (with sources from the IMF itself) that show that it clearly doesn´t work. You are trying to justify your nonsense with backpedaling on your inital point and now throwing in meaningless phrases like "different kind of success". You sound like an politican. Differences are given because of country specific economies. But there is no such thing like "it half worked", because then it still failed to achive what it meant to do. Because the debt didn´t shrink, unemployment is not shrinking but rising, the living standart is sinking, austeritiy did, effectivly not work. You bring in examples like economical growth and think this is a result of austerity. Yet the IMF report i linked to shows that this only a short time effect, because the real cost of austerity measures takes some time to come into effect. You also seem to forget that a) after a complete meltdown of a state, growth in some form is natural effect. It´s easy to say Spain has some growth when they were allready laying on the floor. Every country in history had growth after a financial disaster, but in my believe, with my knowledge, and with documents by IMF and others, Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and others would be better off with a) no austerity or very little, b) not having to conform with EU laws that may hinder them and c) their own currency with the ability to combat their problems. Even the EU is now acknowledging that the Euro might be the wrong thing for Greece. This is like Elrond saying that the EU helped Finnland. It´s easy to turn around and look at Finnland in the crisis and say "well the EU helped us" and in some aspects he is right. But you have to look at the long run. They too, are not doing well, no signigicant grow in economical terms, billions of loses due to sancations, and no way to devalue their currency (as they did many times in these cases) to make it easier. The same goes for a lot countries. A lot of people only look at the south, but Austria isn´t better. The french economy isn´t that great as reported in the news also. Stagnation is pretty evident in the Euro zone, and its the fault of the EU and a currency that should not be there in the first place. I mean seriously Spains youth unemployment rate is almost 50%. with only slight fluctuations. The youth rate is a good indicator on how well an economy is doing. It doesn´t look better in the other south countries btw. Portugal, living under austerity, has longer waiting lines infront of soup kitchens then the greece infront their banks. So, i ask you now, please with sources that are not easily debunked. How did austerity help anyone. Except the banks, and no you are wrong and right at the same time when you say a healthy bank system is needed for an economy. That is the case when you have financial control over your own currency, then it´s important. If you have a foreign currency, which the Euro effectly is, and you can´t influence it then you are a victim to that system because you can just react (bank bail-outs). THe only ones who make a profit on this system ARE the banks, not the people, not the country. Thats infact how these (illegal by EU law) loans to greece and others work. No country has billions laying around. So they take a credit getting into more debt, to loan that money to the troubled countries, yet most of it goes to that banks (who in return are mostly owned by the big banks who gave out the credit in the first place), while the people in the troubled country get austerity (often with privatization, greece shipyards, the backbone of their country, bought up by the owners of big banks say hello) so that country can pay the loans back and the big banks make the profit. How do you, who thinks he is so smart, DOESNT SEE HOW BAD THAT IS. No, i don´t expect a real answer from you, but surprise me. One more thing. Now i know you are not very well educated on this but really? "Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher" There are no high standars in the US. That country is trillions in debt...growing, with no chance every paying it back, and is only afloat because the dollar is still the world trading currency (a trend that is decreasing). They print that money like crazy, which also doesn´t work forever. And the backbone of their economy, the military complex, still finds countries to bomb into the ground. They have no economy to speak off, considering their size and population. Their unenployment rate is extremly high, it just looks low because the white house reports ignore a lot (easily debunked by experts all the time..look it up yourself). It´s always funny when the US lectures someone on debt. Heck, that goes for Germany too, they never paid their debt, they are in no possition to lecture anyone. Do you mind sharing with me where you were born? Are you native Austrian, the reason I ask is you and I are so far apart on most issues there has to be a valid reason like some Serbs who have a dislike of the West for Bosnia and Kosovo. There is nothing wrong with being honest, I am a white South African who was born in South Africa I am sorry to offend you now, I don't mean to but I can see no other way to make this point...you clearly don't understand what austerity means and how it is suppose to resolve the various economic issues plaguing certain EU countries Sorry but its true, I'll explain it later but not now. Two points that will confirm my suspicion is you linked the "IMF Report " as credible proof. Its a good read and paints an accurate and gloomy view of the EU and austerity ...except its over two years old, it came out in Jan 2013. It was only after that austerity started to see positive results..like Ireland leaving the bailout program end of 2013 So your " proof " is not only old but was wrong with its predictions Then your view that 24 % or 50 % unemployment is another sign that " how can you possibly say Spain is on the road to recovery " . You see you don't understand that there are various metrics the EU Troika uses to measures the success of austerity, two of them are the health of the banking system and the fact there economy is growing. You may ignore these and only focus on unemployment but that is not the accepted view of economists and EU Troika...and there opinion is what matters

You need to start pushing this point, you have been almost unconcerned about the excuses and justifications. And you are far too knowledgeable and reasonable to allow this to go on unchecked. People will believe the hyperbole if you don't say something, you know most people automatically dismiss my view even if I'm right And I believe you are a person of principles and integrity...so demonstrate it It feels like I am the only one pushing this view and saying " Greece needs to take responsibility " ...and I don't even live in Europe

Makes sense, the reason I am asking is this is something we grapple with in South Africa. We ask questions like " can you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " how do you forgive people who discriminated against you ", " what does it mean to be a South African...do we as whites need to accept some sense of responsibility for Apartheid even if we were kids at the time and had no influence " and other similar questions So I was interested in your view

Why? Most of europe has free speech. Historicaly speaking long before the US, which is no suprise because the US constitution is based on the Magna Carta Libertatum and it´s various interpretations. Long before the US even existed. I will never understand this. US people are so high on their "freedom" of everything, which compared to us, is just a given thing. In fact considering some laws you have, and the the goverment can do what it want, i would say your idea of freedom is even less than what we consider freedom in europe. Or Russia, which, surprise is also a democracy. I don´t get that "we are the land of the free we can say what we want" when this is standart in europe and factual isn´t even the case in the US. I just don´t get it. Do you care about the notion of free speech....seriously think about it, don't just say " yes " And tell me why you care if you don't mind ?

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ? no, we don't assume they are guilty or scum. however, depending on the evidence made public available, we might protest or boycott. we might even use our First Amendment rights to criticize the State if it appears to us that there were a failure on the part o' lawyers or police or whomever that made it possible for seeming guilty folks to go free. we need be convinced that a person is scum... need more than mere accusation. however, what convinces Gromnir is likely gonna be different than what is required to convince gifted or bruce. good. am not seeing a problem if evidence made public is unconvincing to gifted but satisfies Gromnir that _________ is scum and we will henceforth never voluntarily do business with the d-bag. stuff such as "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard for the court o' public opinion. if __________ is an accused pedophile, then how much evidence do we require to convince us that ___________ is not somebody we wanna leave alone with our pre-teen cousin, regardless o' whether or not we is certain that they is legal guilty? chances are that we need little such evidence in that situation, eh? for us, legal guilt is a complete different query. there can be any number o' reasons why the State fails to prosecute a scumbag. is even more reasons why the State may fail to gain a conviction o' a scumbag. am understanding that such a pov can seem self-contradictory. HA! Good Fun! No its not self-contradictory but offers a more honest, nuanced and complex perspective which I enjoy Do you consider the First Amendment as sacrosanct? And from some of your personal experiences growing up and being discriminated against by "Americans " I am impressed again that this didn't make you jaded and unconcerned with the US Constitution....or did you resent White people when you were younger and if so what changed ( I remember you did mention this that you had some animosity towards Whites because of how they treated you and your Gran )

The court of public opinion is not the same as a court of law. One of the reasons for a court is to strip away the emotions and examine the facts. Fair enough, I need to give you a valid analogy ....okay let me think about it. The problem being Cosby hasn't been charged yet Here is a good read that may change your mind http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/08/us/bill-cosby-sexual-assault-allegations/index.html

Forget that example, thats not the point What about pedophile rings that get busted? Don't you automatically assume they scum and guilty ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint if we believe he has done wrong, then we want to see the process applied fair. we don't need legal punishment per se. ... am gonna admit that there is cases in which we suspect that the process has been subverted. is the State v. Defendant in a criminal case. is not victim v. Defendant. is society as a whole that is s'posed getting justice. however, as a complete random example, a wealthy defendant might be able to convince a victim to refrain from testifying. is pretty much 0 chance a prosecutor is gonna try and nail a defendant for rape w/o the cooperation o' the victim. so, am much bothered when we see a professional basketball player (again, is complete random example) possible escape justice by what amounts to paying off the victim. such results offend us. HA! Good Fun! Yes but what about people who do wrong outside the USA ....like ISIS You would judge them right? I am missing the part of why you guys don't want to pass judgement as I think we do it all the time ?

Interesting answer, you see when it comes to my personal views on Cosby I can't separate the guilty and the fact he is a dirtbag You do have more temperance than me but that doesn't surprise me because of your life experiences. For me its simple, if a guy commits rape on this scale I cannot show much restraint

I'm not talking about my personal feelings because I'm trying not to make this about personal feelings. Here is what I'm seeing: Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists So my questions stands, how should society treat a guy accused of rape so as to not be a part of "rape culture"? Should we fire him? Boycott his work? How do we demonstrate that we don't support rape? What vigilante justice will make our society right in light of accusations - regardless of how many - that have never led to a court decision? So its okay to "make it real" without his day in court? What penalty should be lodged by society towards the accused to show it has been made real? "Woman accuses guy of rape More women accuse guy of rape People complain the public isn't believing the weight of the accusations against guy and point to this being a "Rape Culture" that denies rape and enable rapists" Is this a common issue because only then would your concern make sense ? Surly you aren't worried this may happen?

I don't think anyone took the stories more seriously because some comedian said something. But my point is what defines taking the accusations seriously in the first place? Somebody is accused of rape by multiple people. What should our reaction be? make the accused the subject of gossip and rumor? assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent? publicly denounce the accused for their alleged actions? shun the accused? ensure the accused loses their job and livelyhood? ensure the accused loses custody of their children? ensure that the accused is cut off from all ties to the human race? In short, what precisely is the appropriate reaction when a person has been accused as opposed to found guilty (criminal) or liable (civil)? I'm not talking about whether a person thinks he's guilty or not. What I'm talking about is what is the desired reaction to an accusation of rape? Because what is apparent is that there are people who believe that we should treat an accusation of rape as proof of rape. That apparently giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt as opposed to storming their house and tarring and feathering them isn't the right reaction. So tell me, how should we react to demonstrate we are against rape? Not intentionally I'm not. Again as I said yesterday I've made no claims intentionally regarding people making up their own mind or forming their own opinions. But you - amid the news reporter-pundit types as well - keep talking about how "the general public has failed to take the stories seriously". So here's my question, how are we supposed to demonstrate that we take the stories seriously? What does that mean? What rights do we deprive the accused of to demonstrate that we're taking these accusations seriously? This is the point I'm getting at. I think you need to use common sense when it comes to rape allegations ...are you really telling me that you don't think he is guilty because he hasn't been convicted or charged ? You need to respond how you feel is appropriate when someone is guilty of habitual rape...I imagine surprise and condemnation and sorrow for his victims. And then a reminder of how much work is still to be done so going forward people don't get away with it Desired reaction? Nothing really expect for personal views and forum comments ...but he needs to see his day in court to make it real for most people

Gromnir your view on this topic matters to me because I generally agree with your logic Surly you believe he is guilty and please don't say " no I always wait for trials before formulating an opinion " What do you think based on everything that has happened ?

I don't think the words " culture of rape " is appropriate...I think it adds a level of exaggeration and unneeded outrage to the debate

Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3 From that article So I'm going to ask you, Bruce, since this is one of the main criticisms over the reaction to the allegations against Cosby, that people don't immediately start treating people like rapists when someone accuses them of doing such... ...is that what you really want to end "Rape Culture"? To not have people wait for an outcome of a civil or state trial but to accept any accusation so long as the source is "credible" or that there are many sources or that there are many incidents over a long period of time? Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3 From that article So I'm going to ask you, Bruce, since this is one of the main criticisms over the reaction to the allegations against Cosby, that people don't immediately start treating people like rapists when someone accuses them of doing such... ...is that what you really want to end "Rape Culture"? To not have people wait for an outcome of a civil or state trial but to accept any accusation so long as the source is "credible" or that there are many sources or that there are many incidents over a long period of time? Sure, I get your point but I think you misunderstood what he was saying, he says "Despite report after report, often from credible sources, the general public has failed to take the stories seriously. That was, of course, until male comedian Hannibal Buress raised the rape allegations during a two-minute comedy skit last month." So what he is really saying is that until now people haven't taken the stories seriously Also you are being dramatic, loads of people think he is guilty. This doesn't mean now all rape charges will be automatically believed Can you answer me something, you have an issue with the fact that I am saying he is guilty before going to trial. And you are positioning that as a bad thing right ? Have you never had preconceived views on the guilt of people before trail? Like the Boston Marathon bomber ...when he was caught didn't you think he was guilty ?

I don't mind but thanks for the sentiment You see Orog I just don't respond to people who I don't want to. I also find this criticism of what I say very entertaining because most of the time its unfounded Also this is the type of attention you get from some people when you raise SJ issues....but that's just a consequence. Of course I'm not suggesting I prefer that type of debate, I obviously prefer the debates we and others have. We can disagree but its rationale

Why? I appreciate the fact you seem to want to have a real debate but you realize that the words " culture of rape " was used in the original article I posted See below, so it wasn't my words it was CNN http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/20/opinion/hill-bill-cosby-case-rape-culture/index.html?hpt=hp_c3

Unlike you I support equal right to everyone. In this case I support a fair trial, again unlike you. Nah...you don't even like black people so why are you pretending that you care about Cosby's trial It just so happens you dislike feminists and women wanting gender equality more than black people so you are now attacking them I don't have to like anybody. I tolerate most people and don't dislike the selected few. That doesn't mean I support unjust and unlawful treatment of groups I dislike...again unlike you BruceVC. You would support mistreatment, injustice and I think even genocide of groups you are not fond of. Your words just prove this "you don't even like (...) so why are you pretending that you care", meaning if you don;t like some groups then you don't care what happens to them. You are like USA during IIWW when Polish officer Jan Karski informed about Holocaust of Jews "well it's horrible, but we don't really like Jews". I may be antisocial jackass, but you BruceVC once again proved to be a horrible human being. Yeah, it true...I admit it ..I'm a horrible person What do you suggest I do to become a better person ?

I don't maintain a .txt file for this forum, and even if I were to mention cases where you have a rather amusing idea of justice not sure what that would achieve. I talk to enough walls at work. Thats interesting, I ask you for examples of why you criticized me as I'm genuinely interested and you can't give me any? Please think,I'm not trying to catch you out

Unlike you I support equal right to everyone. In this case I support a fair trial, again unlike you. Nah...you don't even like black people so why are you pretending that you care about Cosby's trial It just so happens you dislike feminists and women wanting gender equality more than black people so you are now attacking them

Based on your posting here, you walk into the trap of wanting justice for people you like alone. Recently, think on your stance on the ruling that feeling harassed isn't enough to convict. As for supporting victims, heh, yeah, posting online will help them tonnes. But yes, it will give you credit for being the Right Kind of person. Okay Malc I genuinely want to understand your point, please give me examples so I get it ?

Its nothing personal, I am just focusing on other topics

Are you seriously using Spain as an example of austerity working? There is over 20% unemployment and real wages have been declining since 2008. If that's austerity working then it doesn't seem to be able to help workers. Ireland has an unemployment rate of 9.7% and real wages have been declining since 2009. Not doing as badly as Italy or Spain is a rather weak achievement. http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=AV_AN_WAGE Not to mention the effects the cuts and regressive taxes had on people: http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/irelands-austerity-success-is-no-model-for-greece-340662.html Comparatively we have Iceland which did not pursue austerity and has an unemployment of 4.7%(less than half of Ireland) and has seen real wages increase since 2008. http://www.statice.is/?PageID=1251&src=https://rannsokn.hagstofa.is/pxen/Dialog/varval.asp?ma=VIS04004%26ti=Real+wages%2C+index+1989-2015+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++%26path=../Database/visitolur/launavisitala/%26lang=1%26units=Index/percent It's pretty clear that austerity measures don't help the economy. And that was after Germany attacked Greece and killed a lot of them. KP thanks for taking the time to respond in detail, even if we disagree A couple of corrections, funny enough the 24 % unemployment rate in Spain is considered serious but the good news is about other things that the Spanish have done since austerity was introduced . In the USA the unemployment rate becomes a key barometer of the success of the presidency so I can understand you focusing on that in Spain but that is just part of the overall economic picture Also you seem to be looking and judging the success of austerity on USA standards....you mustn't do that as the USA standards are much higher and if Spain was in the USA it would probably be considered economically challenged. Each county in the EU undergoing austerity has had different levels of transformation...with Greece being the exception But there is no such thing as completely recovered for any of the 5 countries. But considering these countries were on the verge of bankruptcy we really need to see the progression

I'm sure that with so many claims there is plenty of material available to get to the truth of the matter. However on the other hand if out of all these many claims it will turn out that not even one can be proven not only can you dismiss them but you absolutely must. I hear what you guys are saying that I shouldn't make assumptions about his guilt but this time is one of those exceptions. Remember I look at all the events and circumstances when making this type of judgement