Lampros

But I am a newb; so I need every edge I can get! Ah, no wonder I never saw it when I played Normal. I killed all the WM Ogres.

His DPS and crit rate were okay at lower levels. But they started lagging relatively once the other guys started getting offensive abilities/talents and good gear (around level 5 is when I got stuff like Shatterstar and Tall Grass). So I'd love to see how your experience - or IF - changes at higher levels. Please keep us posted. On not "putting out": I've stayed with girls who didn't put out - for a long time. But I think I was a romantic who was a full of illusions in my youth!

MaxQuest (or anyone else): How many scrollers would you need in general? Given 2 Paladins, 1 Fighter, 1 Chanter, 1 Priest, and 1 Wizard set-up, who would you make the scroller?

Are Fighters good scrollers? I noticed the last PotD playthrough I might need to start using scrolls as well, since my figurine summons and some of the potions I relied on (especially Infuse Essence) lost their impact. So I was wondering who should be the main scroller. Fighter, Paladin, and Chanters are the main candidates, since they don't have a lot of active skills, but then I worry that Fighters will be interrupted a lot, too, if they start scrolling. Also, Chanters will stop chanting when they cast anything active, right? Hmm...

Voice of the Mountaintop is the one Chanter gear that almost every build uses. It's pretty close to a "must," as it extended the range of your chants significantly. The others really depend on context and preferences. I no longer run a tanking Chanter on PotD, and I use a 2nd-line pike Chanter using Tall Grass. (I might give Tall Grass to the 2nd pike user in future runs though.) So on the 2nd line, the Chanter is a bit more protected and do not need tanking gear so urgently. But I tend to try to collect Rings of Deflection, Rings of Protection, and Blunting Belts in the first act and early 2nd act anyways for all my melees. That will happen if you ignore your deflection. If you really want to play a glass cannon DPS chanter then you should at least have a secondary panic button setup, like hatchet + shield and possibly the Weapon and Shield Style talent. My own chanter builds always start with dual-wielded hatchets + Cautious Attack talent or hatchet + shield setups on weapon switch to discourage attackers. While not particularly tanky by an stretch before you reach Caed Nua, their high defenses means that mobs mostly ignore them . This is important because, as I mentioned, you should be attacking (specifically flanking, to increase crit rate) whenever possible. Note that "But Reny Daret's Ghost..." is excellent for setting up flanking since you can choose where to summon it. Ranged weapons are also helpful if you're one of those adventurous types who likes fighting wilder-type enemies early on. Caed Nua opens up Resolve resting bonuses and adventures that reward you with various defensive goodies. The Superior Deflection talent should also be available a little after this point and you'll have access to more consumables (like scrolls of defense). Once you reach this stage then as long as your chanter doesn't get themselves surrounded by hostiles or are taking on very powerful enemies too early then you're good to go for the rest of PotD. Yes, if you dual wield hatchets and get Superior Deflection or Cautious Attack, then you will bump up Deflection - along with the Caed Nua Resolve bonus. But the build I was reading here seems to head toward a full-blown DPS build? I think that's too taxing on PotD for micro-hater like me! By the way, is the Resolve bonus the Caed Nua resting bonus you generally take? I understand what you're saying but I've never had much trouble so far. I usually start it off with a well placed pistol shot while the front liners engage and then move the chanter into a flanking position (switching to melee)... The formation I use doesn't have the chanter in the front line per say. It has Elder, Itumaak and Pallegina then the chanter in the mid line solo and aloth, sagani and durance with ranged weapons at the back... Yup, the concerns I have can be addressed by different play-style. I tend to hate micro-management, so I don't do fancy placement/movement, and I would never use weapons switch tactic. Damn, I am lazy!

Ogres? What figurine grants them? I am a bit concerned, because I rely heavily on figurines, and they seem to be losing their impact as I level up.

Are any still worth activating end-game? If yes, which ones? I just looked them up all online, and none has higher than a level 8 creature (Adra Battle) bound? (Actually, I also do see a Battle Horn, but no info on it.) Edit: Oops. I see a thread exactly on this topic here. Let me look through it!

Got it. But since I use Charm, Confuse, Dominate a lot, I am afraid it will activate when CC-ed enemies get hit. If I were to use only 1 Fighter though, where would you place him? Front-line with dual wield Godansthunyr and Shatterstar/Strike Hard or mid-line with Tall Grass? Assume you will also have 2 Paladins (1 will be front-line and the other's placement will depend on where the Fighter goes). I guess to put it easier: I want 2 front-line melees and 2 mid-line melees. 4 characters, 2 Paladins, a Chanter, and a Fighter. Chanter definitely goes mid-line. Where are the other 3 going?

I should stress that my games have been buggy - with lost saves, Arcane Veil sometimes not activating for some odd reason, with hand items (whether weapons or shields) sometimes not displaying at all graphically, etc. But everything else on the damage record other than the Rogue crit rate looks normal.

Could you post level, stats, and talents/abilities? I knew his DPS will be mediocre, because it was mediocre at Normal, too. But the 25 percent crit rate is just mind-boggling. For a reference, at Normal he had 90 percent crit rate almost. My build at level 10 was: Blinding Strike Weapon Focus: Adventurer Dirty Fighting Vicious Fighting Deep Wounds Marksman Crippling Strike Runner's Wounding Shot Adept Evasion Interrupting Blows I don't remember the creation stat distribution, but it was at level 10: 14 Might; 10 Constitution; 17 Dexterity; 18 Perception; 16 Intelligence; 9 Resolution Also 75 Accuracy with Borresaine, but that does not take into account the Wood Elf and Marksman boni, I believe. That could be, but level 10 is a lot of arrows shot - and a pretty large sampling. Actually, both the Chanter and the Paladin had less - but not significantly so (Paladin had like 18 percent, and I don't remember the Chanter but close to the Paladin).

MaxQuest, As usual, you are a marvel of thoroughness. I don't know how to break up quotes, so I will reply item-by-item without quotes. On consumables and figurines: So it seems like a case where what looks difficult (and impossible without consumables and figurines) are not THAT difficult for you! Incidentally, I am worried that at the higher levels they will no longer be effective, because the content will out-level them. In particular, I have been relying a lot on the Vital Essence Potion and the Adra Beetle figurine. But the Vital Essence Potion keeps healing less and less percentage of my health; and the Adra Beetle is level 8, so he will really be obsolete by WM 2 at the latest. Are there upper tier replacements for these two items? On the Priest equipment: I did not consider the combined effect of the Gyrd and the Wael's Robe. Thanks for suggesting it! I also totally agree that sometimes you do not want random Dominates or Charms on the enemies. In addition to the unintended consequences you out-lined, I have also had problems with them wandering off to the next enemy group and triggering them. Do you ever use 1H/shield mode on the Priest perchance? I am exploring this option to make my Priest sturdier and get them in better position to cast AoE buffs. On "Dragon Roar": That explains it. I knew I was not imagining things! I also thought about opening with a Phrase other than Dragon Thrashed, but my Chanters are usually melee, so it seems to affect enough enemies anyways. I have also never used Wendgridh; I tend to combine Dragon Thrashed with the Phrase that increase Fortitude and Will. Yes, I am paranoid about Spores and Fampyrs, etc.! On the ranged Rogue DPS: I did expect the DPS to be awful, since I had a previous experience with it in Normal. But what stunned be is the 25 percent crit rate. It's stunning to the point where I am wondering if there is a bug involved. (My games have been buggy, with saves frequently being lost, and sometimes there are display bugs with hand slots where the weapon or the shield does not show up graphically, etc.) I may move the front-line Fighter to the Tall Grass and add another Paladin to the front-line (to make 2 Paladin front-line), but I am not sure if I want to add another Fighter, because then I'd have two Fighters. Fighters are nice, but I don't want 2 of a single class unless that class does massive AoE or have tremendous support possibilities (e.g. Chanter or Paladin). On Galvino's Workshop: What level then do you think is "safe" for a newb to tackle the area in PotD? I want to be able to do it at level 10, because I want Durgan stuff relatively soon. But I guess I could just do a bit of Act 3 and come back at level 11-12 (forgot when my Wizard gets Gaze of Adra - or do I have another reliable long-term CC at my disposal?)?

I am interested, too. In particular, the forum needs more reach weapon builds. Like right now!

Edit: I saw your edit on the Barbarian as an alternative. And yes, I considered him, but I think I really want two Paladins for the synergies - as well as the possibility of making one Paladin a full-blown DPS build (since he can then pass off some important defensive or support abilities/talents to the 2nd Paladin). So if I put Fighter on the Tall Grass duty, I'd put 2 Paladins on the first line. And if Fighter remains on the first line, then one of the the Paladins goes with the Tall Grass.

I do want to use my Wizard for Confuse, and I generally have Munacra equipped on a front-liner as well. But a Fighter without the Take Hit would still be formidable with Tall Grass, right? If he averages the 70 percent he did with Shatterstar, then I should see a lot of Prones. And yes, I plan on taking the Tall Grass away from the Chanter (I will use a Moon Godlike Gandalf this time anyways, so a quarterstaff is more fitting) - or duplicating Tall Grass. The only question is: Is a Fighter more optimal on the front-line with a Godansthnyr or second-line with a Tall Grass?

Okay, a lot to update here. Fist and foremost, I think I have figured out how to contain my lost save problem. It seems like losing saves can only occur in two separate scenarios. First, it can happen when I switch from offline to online play - and vice versa. Since I never know when I will lose online connection, I guess this means I should only play PoE offline. Second, it appears that when I save over a previous save, it sometimes only deletes the previous save and does not actually create a new save. So I should double check and see if a new save has been created. And with these two precautions in place, no issues so far. But to be extra careful, I am backing up everything as well in a separate drive. Now to the playthrough itself. I played this 2nd PotD group (Paladin tank/off-tank, Fighter tank/off-tank, Chanter pike DPS, Rogue war bow DPS/CC, Wizard implement DPS/CC, and Priest buffer/healer) to level 10. I had a really smooth run up until level 10 - though I did have to make a major adjustment early: I realized that my two front-liners could not survive without a shield and had to wait until better gear and more levels for a more aggressive approach. (This was less of a problem when I had three front-liners in the first PotD attempt.) There were three chief reasons for my greater success this time. First, I did incorporate a lot of suggestions posters here made - especially focusing on increasing Accuracy early (thanks, everyone!). So I did not experience the same "PotD crit starvation" issue I initially complained about after the first aborted run (except on the ranged Rogue - more on this later). Second, I found some stuff on my own - especially about abusing the various summoning items in the game. And holy moly - are they powerful early and mid-game! They almost single-handedly enabled me to power through the more difficult encounters where I was threatened with being overwhelmed in numbers. Third, and finally, I was very careful to avoid the harder early encounters and ensuring I was over-leveled when I did tackle them. For instance, I did try the Ogres in level 3 Caed Nua until level 8! But now I wiped in the big Laguafaeth camp in Longwatch Falls, and I had to save scum and failed again in a re-try. (This was also the first fight where I had anyone knocked out.) Of course, I can leave this fight off until later - as I did with the Caed Nua Ogres. And as I am still doing with Galvino's Workshop and Cliaban Rilag Spores. But I can see I will have massive trouble in the future content when I can no longer count on the summon items and being over-leveled. Something is off in my set-up. And I think one of the biggest problem - the "dead weight" - is the ranged Rogue. He is frustrating me to the point where I cannot keep going with him any more. To begin with, his DPS is awful. Since level 9 - at which point my two front-liners switched to offensive mode - my ranged Rogue is behind everyone in DPS except my Priest (!). But I sort of expected this, as I built my Rogue to be as much Borresaine stunner as a DPS. But he is failing miserably here, too. For whatever reason, he is averaging only 25 percent crit, and that is not enough for Borresaine's on-crit effect. So I am getting nothing out of him. Here's the DPS record at up to level 9 and at level 10: Pre-level 9: Paladin MC (1st line/main tank) (Shame & Glory/Outworn Buckler): 22,511 Fighter (1st line/off-tank) (Shatterstar & Sura's Supper Plate): 32,561 Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 28,143 Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 34,978 Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd) 33,320 Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 15,983 Pre-level 10: Paladin (1st line/DPS) (Tidefall): 33,485 Fighter (1st line/DPS) (Shatterstar/Hearth Harvest): 43,631 Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 56,880 Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 41,581 Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd) 42,291 Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 19,915 And the Rogue will just keep getting behind in DPS as I have held off on the DPS abilities/talents initially (and some cannot be obtained much later - like Sacred Immolation). And his lack of consistent crits and thus CC will make his lack of contribution there hurt even more, as enemy groups become larger and tougher later. Once again, I am shocked by the Rogue's low crit to the point where I am wondering if my game was bugged. He had 90 percent crit rate at normal with the same build; and now he has 25 percent?! Whatever the reason, I am swearing off the class for now. He does mediocre overall DPS, and he can't CC even single targets reliably. So in my 3rd PotD attempt, I will go with 4 melees again, except 2 of those 4 melees will have reach weapons to reduce the melee congestion/idling issue. I think I will replace the Rogue with a Chanter or a Paladin - so I will have 2 of either Chanter or Paladin. The DPS should be way better - from mid-game onward if Chanter and late-game onward if Paladin. And a lot more utility and group support. Edit: I think I will have a 2nd Paladin replace the Rogue, not the 2nd Chanter. The Paladin is a bit more sturdier, and he has a bit more early game utility.

Yes, I was thinking of re-trying the 1H/shield approach when I get Little Savior. But I am not sure if I can kill the Adra Dragon so easily on PotD! Thanks for the tip on the Nightshroud. I did not know about the Shadowing Beyond bound spell. Now I will definitely use it on the Priest! Finally, I, too, am a melee-centric player, but I found managing melee congestion too annoying when I tried a 4-man melee team earlier. But in the next PotD run I am giving 2 of them reach weapons and try the melee-centric approach again.

I know but I use the IE mod to change that and to apply them to companions, too

Voice of the Mountaintop is the one Chanter gear that almost every build uses. It's pretty close to a "must," as it extended the range of your chants significantly. The others really depend on context and preferences. I no longer run a tanking Chanter on PotD, and I use a 2nd-line pike Chanter using Tall Grass. (I might give Tall Grass to the 2nd pike user in future runs though.) So on the 2nd line, the Chanter is a bit more protected and do not need tanking gear so urgently. But I tend to try to collect Rings of Deflection, Rings of Protection, and Blunting Belts in the first act and early 2nd act anyways for all my melees. That will happen if you ignore your deflection. If you really want to play a glass cannon DPS chanter then you should at least have a secondary panic button setup, like hatchet + shield and possibly the Weapon and Shield Style talent. My own chanter builds always start with dual-wielded hatchets + Cautious Attack talent or hatchet + shield setups on weapon switch to discourage attackers. While not particularly tanky by an stretch before you reach Caed Nua, their high defenses means that mobs mostly ignore them . This is important because, as I mentioned, you should be attacking (specifically flanking, to increase crit rate) whenever possible. Note that "But Reny Daret's Ghost..." is excellent for setting up flanking since you can choose where to summon it. Ranged weapons are also helpful if you're one of those adventurous types who likes fighting wilder-type enemies early on. Caed Nua opens up Resolve resting bonuses and adventures that reward you with various defensive goodies. The Superior Deflection talent should also be available a little after this point and you'll have access to more consumables (like scrolls of defense). Once you reach this stage then as long as your chanter doesn't get themselves surrounded by hostiles or are taking on very powerful enemies too early then you're good to go for the rest of PotD. Yes, if you dual wield hatchets and get Superior Deflection or Cautious Attack, then you will bump up Deflection - along with the Caed Nua Resolve bonus. But the build I was reading here seems to head toward a full-blown DPS build? I think that's too taxing on PotD for micro-hater like me! By the way, is the Resolve bonus the Caed Nua resting bonus you generally take?

I did it for a few reasons 1. Sacred Immolation - Boeroer is correct in that regards. I mean I didn't make the switch immediately at lvl13 so I did have some experience with a GS (Tidefall) until I got my desired 1H. In my experience, there was no noticeable difference in dps. Because main bulk of dmg came from SI, the actual melee dmg contributes relatively low. 2. Itemization - I planned to have my pally wield Steadfast and Outworn Buckler. In particular, the shield can only be wield by a pally. You are right in the improvement of sturdiness - early to mid game I had my retaliation monk as the anchor tank (5dex, 3res inspired by Dr <3 Anvil build). But late game, it is a little inconsistent in tanking bosses so thats when a Pally who can take over as the anchor tank. Also note that the game mode has Trial of Iron. So consistency is something I value over other aspects of combat. Steadfast is a good tanking weapon due to my playstyle and Outworn Buckler is just a good passive defence AoE buff overall. Note that as mentioned, there is no noticeable downgrade to the dmg output from the switch due to SI. Near endgame, I had my priest wield Little Savior for even more stacked passive AoE goodiness. 3. Best Deflection and Reflex - Since I am using Defensive Mindweb, it will be good to have a character that can push individual saves as high as possible. Pally can push these 2 saves without much difficulty - Weapon and Shield talent coupled with Faith and Conviction. 4. Tidefall... just Tidefall - I love this weapon so I had my Chanter wield it. I got enough shield wielders anyways. Tidefall has draining so while the Chanter will suffer from reduction in deflection, he will gain regen from the weapon. So little impact in his staying power overall. Thanks for the detailed response! On the impact of Immolation damage to Paladin DPS: I know that Immolation DPS is stupendous, given that I have used MaxQuest's mod to actually record DoT damage and monitored its effect. But I'd really have to test myself to see if the damage difference between a 1H Paladin and a 2H Paladin was not so "noticeable." I guess it's a matter of perspective. In a similar vein, when I compared 1H/shield Chanter v. DW Chanter after Dragon Thrashed went into effect, the difference was still considerable - and this is one of the main reasons why I ditched the 1H/shield Chanter and kept the DPS version. As for Paladins being a superlative tank - especially Outworn Buckler - no debate there. I guess I really want to make the DPS Paladin work? (By the way, did you have FoD?) Likewise, I agree Tidefall being such an awesome weapon. I used it a bit the last playthrough and fell in love. Edit: By the way, I just noticed you have all 5 in your party in a melee set-up. That's nuts! OMG, the overcrowding congestion!

I am thinking of running both a Wayfarer and a Bleak Walker Paladin, and obviously the conflicting Dispositions issue is making me hesitate. The biggest issue for me is whether I can still max the Faith and Conviction boni for both the Wayfarer and the Bleak Walker Paladin if I take Untroubled Faith. I do not like losing a level-up slot for Untroubled Faith, because Paladins have a lot of useful abilities/talents. But using 2 Paladins means that I can spread the abilities/talents around, so I can waste 1 Paladin slot for Untroubled Faith. But will this work for my intended effect? I do have the IE mod, so my companions do benefit from Disposition boni.

I am booting the ranged Rogue from my PotD team, and I do not want a Ranger due to the extra micro. So I am adding another 2nd line pikeman in addition to my Tall Grass Chanter (I might duplicate Tall Grass). I am choosing between a Paladin and a Fighter. What do you guys would serve better? I already have one of each. And what abilities and talents for this build?

1. third level priest spell gives +20 to all defense if you stay in the circle. Does the same thing as Scroll of Defense. Except you dont have to stay in the circle with the scroll so that could be an option.2. Kana wears the White Crest Armor and Helmet , Little Savior and a hatchet. I just went max deflection and other defenses with him from the start with him. In the early game he would summon and kill ranged guys with the hard hitting ghost. Once you hit lvl 9 I just Dragon Thrash, Dragon Wails and he melts stuff. 3. Aloth has Llengraths spells (the early and late game ones) and does damage through Kalkoth's Minor Blights and the talent Dangerous Implements. He also has penetrating shot for the implements. He hits pretty hard. Plus he is a master debuffer and escape artist thanks to being unhittable for a duration. 4. Formation x (Fighter) x (Paladin) x (chanter) x (storm druid) x (wizard) x (Priest) I like a Tall Grass Chanter much better than a tanking Chanter - especially at PotD. The reason is that a Chanter is still a bit fragile for the 1st line tank role at the early levels, so he is even more of a drag on the group as a tank than Chanters typically are until level 9. In contrast, a Tall Grass Chanter will be relatively safe in the 2nd line and contribute even before Dragon Thrashed. (Also, in your formation the 1st line will be congested and you will have "idling" issues in some indoor fights. idling on doors is ok with that group. The only one who needs to melee is the Fighter everyone there can stand around and melt groups of enemies. So if the chanter is not in melee cause hes blocked its irrelevant cause hes got AOE dots on every mob in the fight. Only in Dangerous Fights does my melee matter and its the Fighters Melee in Conjunction with Paladin Marking. That being said I see what you are saying. They are the most fragile tank out of all of the tanks. Even in the end game so if all he does is auto attack with his pike and spread his DOTs thats a good call. I agree I guess it's context-dependent. My PotD group does not burn down enemies that fast, so it needs to squeeze every ounce of DPS as possible. And in my testing a Tall Grass Chanter did significantly more DPS than a tanking Chanter without requiring more "baby-sitting" - as well as of course provide the Prone effects.

L4wlight, You sure the Gyrd is all that good for the Priest? First, the Displaced Image proc is only on crits, not hits - contrary to what you wrote (or so says the Gampedia). Second, the Dominate effect is only 10 percent chance - so you won't be getting far fewer procs there then a Wizard with Blast. AndreaColombo, Two questions about the build. First, I am a bit confused about the idea of using a Priest as a scroll caster. Simply put, doesn't a Priest have enough spells to cast as is? Second, can this build do any damage casting? Thanks in advance!

Will do!

Yes, I just noticed your post about Circle of Protection today. I've never even cast it. I haven't cast a lot of Priest spells - there are so many, and it's hard to keep track of them! But now I definitely will - if I try to use a 1H/shield Priest again. Do you have a general build?