Lampros

In my case, they keep Outworn Buckler, Zealous Endurance, Zealous Focus, the Chanter's Will/Fortitude Phrase, and whatever the Priest throws up. One time it was Dire Blessing and Circle of Protection. And the Paladin's stuff is forever. Early and mid-level, keeping just Paladin's buffs on tough opponents can make them very hardy

Oh, God. Seriously, there goes my mid-game CC plan...

Hmmm, in that case MaxQuest's mod has not gotten rid of it - or at least not all the time. Not only are these buffs long-lasting, but some (like Paladin auras) literally stay forever. So I guess mind control is useless? Or using mass mind control on tough enemies is potentially dangerous? I guess I will be more careful whom I mind control and probably give the Gyrd to the Priest instead to trigger Dominate less often. It's too damn bad, because mind control is the best CC until longer petrify/paralyze type of spells come on.

Exactly.

I'm respeccing Eder from DW Sabre -> DW warhammer. Seems like dual dmg types are better. Thanks for the tips on Dragon Thrashed. I just reached level 9. So far don't have much problem at level 8. Only problem i'm getting wiped are those Adra Animats in Endless Path level 7. Yup; I tried both dual sabers and war hammers, and the latter seem a lot better due to both 1) two weapon types; and 2) debuff/CC enchants on war hammers. Of course, this may be an idiosyncratic preference, as I 1) do not like to change weapons mid-fight or even carry back-up weapons; and 2) I love CC on melee weapons - especially on fast, accurate dual wielders for the near perma-CC.

Okay, I saw something really weird in the Maerwald fight, and it caused my main Paladin to get knocked out - and nearly the whole group wiped. I was not sure when it happened first, but it keeps happening repeatedly now (I have screenshots, too). So can anyone explain what is going on? The odd phenomenon is that when enemies are Dominated - and possibly under other forms of mind control - they keep all the buffs they had while they were Dominated even after the Domination duration is over. In fact, I have a screenshot of a red marked Skaen Cultist even keeping the Outworn Buckler buff. Is this a known bug? I recall Boerer mentioning a seemingly related bug where a Fighter's Take the Hit keeps going off even when formerly mind-controlled enemies take damage. The other possibility is that some enemies steal buffs from you, but a lowly Skaen Cultist? I am really frustrated and befuddled. As I said, I nearly wiped in Maerwald because of this - and I've had several needlessly tough fights, because the Gyrd chain Dominated, and half the enemies wouldn't die due to taking my own buffs. I am afraid I will eventually really wipe on tough fights. I guess stop using the Gyrd, if it is a Dominate bug?

Ascaloth, You repeatedly solicited our opinions. So I - along with others - gave our considered judgments. I am not so sure why you had to turn downright hostile and rude when I do not believe I have been so. In fact, in my first few posts I have thanked you for an enjoyable read! Moreover, I have made my suggestions rather tentatively, initially qualifying my advice with the disclaimer that I am myself a relatively new player. And in the context of your accusing me of imposing my style on top of you: All I did was voice some concerns that many players share about the Barbarian. A lot of players do equip him either with Tall Grass or Godansthuynr - rather than as an outright DPS character. This is because the Barbarian has an amazing CC potential; and there are some survivability concerns about him at initial levels - especially if you are new to PotD. Was I so offensive in pointing out these alternative paths? Besides, I even conceded that they may be more "idosyncratic" concerns that preoccupy me over other people and implied that they may be overblown. I do not see where I tried to impose my play-style onto you. Also, if you all but read the skill descriptions in-game, Weapon Specialization or Mastery do not increase Accuracy one iota. So yes, what you have is not enough Accuracy on PotD to CC reliably with a Fighter. All in all, you can play which ever style you want; it's your game. But in that case you should not have solicited our opinion at all - especially when you are going to have a hissy fit about responses that were not even offensive (and certainly not meant to cause offense). I am out of this thread.

You could sacrifice Resolve to that end; it's not as important as I initially thought it would be. Done. Thanks. I didn't want to bring it lower than 8 though - it seems too un-immersive to have Arwen with so little resolve, considering how she stuck with Aragorn for so long!

The idea was to increase INT and DEX (not PER) - for better and faster buff delivery.PER - is mostly needed for Painful Interdiction, or occasional Shining Beacons - in the fights were you didn't buff your party accuracy. On PotD enemies spawn in greater numbers/quality. You will sure have some fun when meeting 3 Sirens at once in the Battery All right; I am going to finish Act 3 before I go, LOL!

Did you factor in Vigorous Defense? It alone can exceed the Faith & Conviction plus Deep Faith boni. Of course, it's temporary - so if you cannot burn down the encounter quickly enough, you'd need to sink more level-ups on stuff like Superior Deflection, Bear's Fortitude, and so forth. But anyways, I think a Fighter out-tanks a Paladin, if he goes full bore on taking every available defensive Fighter Abilities/Talents. Of course, then he'd be a total gimp masochist - which brings us back to our mutual agreement about the Fighter being a better off-tank/DPS. Also, Ascaloth, Clear Out is rather great with high Intelligence (which I tend to boost on most characters anyways, since I tend to take a lot of hybrid classes like Paladins and Chanters who need the duration and the area of effect boosts). I'd really try to sacrifice something else and incorporate it. Great thing about Paladins they can also get access to Vigourous Defense via Ryonna's Breastplate. And a possibility of triggering it more than once a battle albeit rng controlled. I think it is almost unfair that Unbending, Triggered Immunity and Vigorous Defence is accessible to other classes. Both Fighters and Paladins tanks can function at about the same level I think. Ryona's boob-plate is a bit too unreliable for me though. I like certainty - in life and in games!

Ascaloth, I will try to break this up according to your characters: On the main Paladin: I never take Reviving Exhortation. A Scroll of Revival takes a mere Lore 6 to use - and you should have at least one guy with that much Lore anyways. It seems to me like a waste of a precious Paladin level-up slot, and the Paladin has so many good Abilities/Talents that you are already level-up points starved as is. On the Barbarian: I really think a Barbarian functions better with a Tall Grass from the 2nd line or with at least one CC weapon like Godansthuynr, if you must stick him on the 1st line. But perhaps this is because I am obsessed about CC/survivability. Not using Barbarian atr least as a partial CC specialist seems like a waste; I also do not like him as a toe-to-toe guy with such low Defenses, unless he can disable foes before he goes to town. Another thing to consider is that you also have three 1st-liners. You will have melee congestion and idling melees in certain bottleneck fights. But again, this may be an idiosyncratic thing that bothers me a lot more than other. On the Fighter: A DPS or CC Fighter without Disciplined Barrage and/or Confident Aim seems almost oxymoronic to me. And it's not like you have high Perception to compensate. Yet even more strange, you have Guardian Stance to boot! What exactly is this guy trying to be? I like hybrid builds myself, but I am not sure how effective he is going to be in any role. Also on a 1st-liner, Bear's Fortitude is more important than Snake's Reflex, in my opinion. On the Wizard: I think Constitution 3 on anyone in someone's first PotD try is highly inadvisable. Is this from Boerer's Hurtstacker? He'd be the first to stress that even he dies a lot on this build - or at least with his stat distribution. On the Ranger: With the caveat that I've never run a Ranger and may never do so, I think Intelligence 3 with the stuns from Stunning Shot and Returning Storm do not mix well. I am not sure you want to dump Intelligence to this degree. But then I use my ranged classes to CC, so again this may be an idiosyncratic thing. On the Priest: I am going to repeat my misgivings about Constitution 3. Miscellaneous: I really like that you have auto-revive on all your front-liners. This is how I go; but I am an excessively cautious player who loath getting knocked out, even if it does not impact the overall outcome of the fight. I guess from an immersive perspective, a knockout seems like "death" rather than a "severe injury that is recuperable."

Indeed. This was my first lesson in PotD. At least initially - until your folks gather the necessary gear and level-up Abilities/Talents, it's an excellent idea to go with 2 shield tanks if you are new to PotD. Once you power up, you can then take a more offensive approach, if the environment allows it.

Thanks! I think I will ultimately use Shame or Glory/Last Blade combination. I agree that Sheathed in Autumn is attractive-looking (and it has a Superb enchant), but the Freezing enchant turns me off it as well. I guess ultimately Helwax is still an option for Shame or Glory, but I'd really like to use it on something else. Perhaps even Shod-in-Faith - as I think having two of these on the front-line will surely let me play a bit more aggressively with both the Paladin and the Fighter.

Did you factor in Vigorous Defense? It alone can exceed the Faith & Conviction plus Deep Faith boni. Of course, it's temporary - so if you cannot burn down the encounter quickly enough, you'd need to sink more level-ups on stuff like Superior Deflection, Bear's Fortitude, and so forth. But anyways, I think a Fighter out-tanks a Paladin, if he goes full bore on taking every available defensive Fighter Abilities/Talents. Of course, then he'd be a total gimp masochist - which brings us back to our mutual agreement about the Fighter being a better off-tank/DPS. Also, Ascaloth, Clear Out is rather great with high Intelligence (which I tend to boost on most characters anyways, since I tend to take a lot of hybrid classes like Paladins and Chanters who need the duration and the area of effect boosts). I'd really try to sacrifice something else and incorporate it.

I did not know Marks stack. But Helwax does seem a bit wasted on Shame or Glory. And definitely no dual wielding with spear - a total immersion/aesthetic nightmare! I think I am inclining a lot more toward using a gun switch set-up at least on one Paladin though - as I mentioned in the other thread. My 4 melee group will be very sturdy, but there will be some fights where I am facing a lot of enemy ranged and will require heavy ranged alpha strike power. I am okay with dual wielding a sword and battle axe. I even forgot that they are in the same Weapon Focus group! Thanks for reminding me. The issue with a battle axe is single damage type though. Is there any that you would particularly recommend with Shame or Glory? And if you were to recommend the one sword to pair with Shame or Glory for a dual wield Paladin, what would it be?

Hmm, personally I like specialization.I mean if you want to deal damage, you need high MIG and decent PER. PER is also important if you want to land Painful Interdiction. At the same time every time you cast a buff, points invested in this attributes are wasted... A somewhat compromise could be a 12/10/17/10/19/10 pale elf or 15/10/17/7/19/10 boreal dwarf. I think finishing act 2 will be easier. Doing that plus a few bounties will net you 1-2 levels.As for Durgan's line... those upscaled Battery Sirens are annoying... Unless you have a good shooter or two. He's got a paladin with FoD and Sworn Enemy with an Arbalest will put a hurting on them and you don't need high PER. Sworn Enemy ACC bonus + FoD 20 ACC and its inherent +1 every level is more than enough for an Alpha Strike Paladin with 10 PER. If he/she is a Wood Elf its even better as at anything past 4m you essentially have 5 PER. I was not considering doing a gun switch Paladin, but now I am indeed considering, given that 1) I am running two Paladins and thus specialize them more; and 2) I am running four melees, and I have a serious ranged DPS shortage.

Hmm, personally I like specialization. I mean if you want to deal damage, you need high MIG and decent PER. PER is also important if you want to land Painful Interdiction. At the same time every time you cast a buff, points invested in this attributes are wasted... A somewhat compromise could be a 12/10/17/10/19/10 pale elf or 15/10/17/7/19/10 boreal dwarf. I think finishing act 2 will be easier. Doing that plus a few bounties will net you 1-2 levels.As for Durgan's line... those upscaled Battery Sirens are annoying... Got it. So max Intelligence and Perception but go easier on boosting Might. Damn, I am so bad at designing casters; I see them as tools to make melees shine! As for Battery Sirens, I do not even remember them on easier modes. The only ones that really troubled me were the Spores and the exploding Constructs in non-PotD. But I will definitely look out for them.

Ascaloth, Fighters can get there in terms of tanking bosses in PotD - and arguably exceed the Paladin in this role - but you would need a lot more investment in level-up Abilities/Talents. So it's a matter of opportunity cost. If you want to use the Fighter as a melee DPS/CC - which is in fact the right way to go, and how I use him - then you don't really have enough level-up Abilities/Talents to do both. But the Paladin can in fact DPS and do a whole lot of other things while tanking.

By the way, Boerer (or anyone): Is dual wielding swords on a DPS/off-tank Paladin a stupid idea? The reason I ask is that I really really want to use Shame or Glory on one hand, because of the Marking bonus. Is there any way to make this set-up work? That is, I want to dual wield, do decent damage, and yet still be able to grant a Marking bonus on my mates. And what combination of level-up Abilities/Talents and off-hand weapon will make this work? If there simply is not another sword to make this combination with a Shame or Glory worthwhile, I guess I am even willing to take a second Weapon Focus - since I have 2 Paladins anyways. But of course I still do not want to invest in 2 Weapon Focuses, if I can help it. Edit: Given how the sword is such an iconic weapon in most societies and in the fantasy genre, I am really disappointed by the sword selection in this game relative to other weapons. Ugh. Edit 2: I only see two other worthwhile end-game swords possibly on Gamespedia? Sheathed in Autumn and Last Blade of the White Forge? Or do folks think Whispers of Yenwood and Cat's Claw can be considered in the mix as well?

Yeah, I don't think I will wait too long to fight the Sky Dragon. He seems quite a bit weaker than the other bosses; and I really want Superb weapons fast! I've not done the major non-Dragon bosses even on Normal. So I will definitely do them very late...

Ah, ok. I guess I was letting good XP go to waste. I was playing super-cautious, because I want to practice for TC (hence, no friendly-fire possible AoEs either...)!

Hmm, I thought the PotD Bounties are really hard? I was intentionally avoiding them, too. Or do people mean just WM 2 Bounties are hard in PotD? I accidentally "ran" into a Durgan's Battery Bounty, and it was super-easy.

MaxQuest, Yes, Boerer already referred me to AndreaColombo's build in terms of trying to create a tankier, "sword& board" Priest. But the problem is that what I really need is a "hybrid" combination of that and your Fire Priest. While I am drawn by the greater staying power provided by AndreaColombo's build, I also need some nuke contribution from the Priest, because I have 4 melees, and hence I am a bit starved for ranged DPS. In that context, what compromise Attribute distribution would you look for? On Galvino's Workshop, I guess I will hit some Od Nua then. Between 10 and 11 is a bit awkward, difficult stage for me, because to level traditionally I have to either go through Cliaban Rilag and those dreaded Spore formations and get to Act 3 - or go through Galvino's Workshop and progress through the Durgan's line. And both happen to be my most dreaded areas in the game

Ascaloth, To give you a picture of what a Chanter passive AoE DPS can do, here's what happened when my Chanter acquired it at level 9 in my last PotD run. You will see that the Chanter did almost THREE TIMES as much damage as the next best guy once he got his uber AoE toy: Pre-level 9: Paladin MC (1st line/main tank) (Shame & Glory/Outworn Buckler): 22,511 Fighter (1st line/off-tank) (Shatterstar & Sura's Supper Plate): 32,561 Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 28,143 Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 34,978 Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd) 33, 320 Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 15,983 Pre-level 10: Paladin (1st line/DPS) (Tidefall): 33,485 Fighter (1st line/DPS) (Shatterstar/Hearth Harvest): 43,631 Chanter (2nd line/DPS) (Tall Grass) 56,880 Rogue (3rd line/DPS/CC?) (Borresaine) 41,581 Wizard (3rd line/DPS/CC) (Gyrd) 42,291 Priest (3rd line/buff/DPS) (Grudge Keeper) 19,915 And the Paladin's Sacred Immolation will increase your damage around the same ballpark number after level 13.

Ascaloth, I cannot string quote properly on this forum. So I cannot directly respond to you quote-by-quote. Sorry. Anyways, regarding your direct questions to me - and regarding other points I've noticed in your dialogues with others: On the Paladin Attributes distribution: Yes, 12 Resolve and 18 Might/Intelligence break-down is a reasonable template for an off-tank type of Paladin. It is likely enough for a main tank as well - given how much Defense you will gain from Faith and Conviction boni alone, with just Deep Faith level-up and maxed Dispositions. I am not a math whiz, but I think you get a whopping +8 Deflection and +17 Fortitude/Reflex/Will? And all that from a measly one level-up Talent investment. It's basically 6 or so level-up talent investment worth for other classes. The above arithmetical reality is one of the reason why I think most veterans would recommend you to make the Paladin the main tank, rather than the Fighter as well. Ceteris paribus, the Paladin can boost his Defenses to higher levels than the Fighter with less level-up Talent investment. True, the Fighter has more tools to grab and maintain "aggro" (so to speak) better, but the boss fights in this game - the only instances where you are actually main tanking anything - are not about maintaining aggro. But above all, the Paladin can contribute in other ways while being a static tank - whereas the Fighter cannot. For instance, the taking Paladin will still provide various support functions, whereas the tanking Fighter will - well - just "tank." Even more critically, after level 13 the tanking Paladin will do stupendous DPS, whereas the tanking Fighter will do minimal DPS. The problem with the DPS picture provided by the vanilla game is that DoTs are not properly recorded in the damage recording, so it discounts massive AoE DoTs like the Paladin's Sacred Immolation or the Chanter's Dragon Thrashed. But a static Paladin or Chanter can in fact be the top DPS in the group by a mile by activating these passive attacks alone in PotD. If you download MaxQuest's mod that properly records DoTs, then you will see what I am talking about. A Paladin DPS after level 13 is beyond belief - as is the Chanter's DPS after level 9. Even if they are sitting there and literally doing nothing. This is why so many veterans like to use either the Paladin or the Chanter as a tank. They can tank and still out-DPS everyone in the group, once their passive (or quasi-passive) uber AoE attacks are acquired. In contrast, by making the Fighter a stationary tank, you are taking away so much of his niche skills that require a more active, mobile approach. On the utility of Interdiction: While you may feel that the Daze effect from the vanilla Interdiction may not be worth much, I think the combination of the Daze AND the Weakened effect from Painful Interdiction is indeed quite potent. I would strongly recommend it. It's not like the Priest class skill arsenal is overflowing with goodies the way, for instance, its Paladin counterpart emphatically is (this is why, by the way, I like to take two Paladins; one Paladin cannot utilize everything the class offers). On the utility of Veteran's Recovery: This thing is golden, and I think required on all melees for players who are new to PotD and do not want to live in a micro-Hell of constantly pausing to heal. I would be bald after pulling out all my remaining hair without it.