Mikeymoonshine

Fair I forgot about the companion and adviser side content but most of those quests are not exactly good. They still mostly boil down to meet companion somewhere, have a conversation, make one choice that doesn't matter, sometimes there is a fight. I only cited some of what I think are the best side quests in TW3 there are still many more side quests that have had just as much work put into them as any of these companion quests. Yes the witcher sense thing is annoying and there isn't enough choice but there is still a story to most of the quests and choices in many of them. Andromeda tried to do better here but the writing for most of those quests was still really bad and they were still incredibly short and meaningless most of the time. They also keep constantly trying to add in twists but the twists are all incredibly predictable and again choices that don't matter at all. No disagreement there but Inquisition and Andromeda also have very simple stories and very flat main antagonists. Inquisition gets better antagonist wise if you consider the DLC but then so does TW3. I really don't see the amazing writing in these "metaplots" that you do, bioware's plots have always been rather terrible they just manage to hook you in with interesting characters but they seem to lose this quality more and more with every release. I also don't see how TW3 being limited from it's established world is somehow a point against it. As you said Bioware could do anything with their own IPs but they choose to just repeat the same tired old cliches again and again. I am familiar with the witcher 3 books and there are still many elements of the plot that are surprising and interesting. Inquisition and Andromeda do indeed hide a more complex plot behind a generic one and only hint at it in the main game, this is so they can sell the better plot as dlc or a sequel (like they did with Trespasser) and whatever they were planning to do before Andromeda was the disaster it was. How is this a good thing? Ok fine, some of the choices that affect the outcome are pretty random, in fact the entire last act is pretty weak. I never said TW3 did not have issues though or that all of the choices have meaning or consequences, I said that Inquisition and Andromeda are not better in this regard simply because they give you more lines to pick from and I stand by that statement.

I think when it comes to roleplaying in the Witcher 3, the lack of choice doesn't bother me so much because you are playing an established character and the game doesn't pretend you aren't. You can basically choose to play a nice Geralt or a not nice Geralt most of the time. The real character from the books is probably somewhere in the middle of the two. I can't agree that it's a worse roleplaying experience than something like dragon age Inquisition though just because that game has a character creator and four response options rather that two. Not when those response options usually boil down to saying the same thing or just yes or no in different ways, not when that character history, race, class, gender ect is meaningless the vast majority of the time and sometimes is ignored even when it should really matter. Inquisition puts almost all it's writing and cinematic moments into the main story which is actually very short and just gated by the worst kind of mmo teir content that the game calls "side quests" even the best side quests in Inquisition don't have cut scenes, or memorable characters with all that much writing or really any choices. The choices you make in the main quests are almost always binary and only a few of them ever lead to anything other than there being a different set of NPC's in skyhold doing nothing for the rest of the game. Yes side quests and main quests in modern AAA RPGs are shorter and tend not to include dungeon crawls. At least Witcher 3 has memorable side quests like tower full of mice, carnal sins, wild at heart and return to crookback bog. Quests that have choices, consequences a story, characters cut scenes ect. Some of the side quests even affect the main story. Can you really say that's even equivalent to the best side quests in dragon age Inquisition or mass effect Andromeda? I agree the game has a lot of interests and is not one of the best RPG experiences but we don't get the best RPG experiences anymore. Bioware and Bethesda should not get credit for their illusion of choices just so the Witcher 3 can be knocked down a peg.

I hope this isn't true, I know they aren't as bad as EA but they are still a major publisher. They don't make the kind of games I love because they "aren't profitable enough". Major publishers are barely even making games anymore, they are just making trash designed to suck money out of people.

Yeah when I said I had seen it somewhere I wasn't implying that it was the fault of anyone else for not seeing it. Was just saying I knew I wasn't getting a disk and backed for the CE anyway so I don't feel like I got a raw deal. I totally agree that backing for a physical copy and then just getting a box with a code in it is insane, I don't think Obsidian should have offered that teir at all or at least they should have made it clear what it was.

I knew there wouldn't be a disk, I can't remember where but someone said there wasn't going to be i'm pretty sure. It doesn't bother me as the disk would just be sitting on a shelf anyway but it does seem strange to have this nice case in my CE that just contains a card with a code I already have.

mine still says "shipping soon" but I have it.

I don't disagree that some of the backlash to TLJ was just simply that Star Wars fans wanted specific things and they weren't given those things and that upset them, perhaps this is why the incredibly mediocre retread that was TFA kind of got away with being so mediocre at least for a time. Though for me I was able to enjoy it more because at least the new characters were interesting and I wanted to see what would happen with them. I suppose you could compare that to some reactions to POE with people expecting Baldur's Gate 2.0 or whatever. The thing is you are focusing a lot on change and fans hating things because of change, that's all very well but there are other criticisms. ME2 and 3 are no different there are many criticisms of the plot of those games that aren't nit picking at all. There is criticism of how side content was handled, there is criticism of how companions are used, how factions are used ect ect. There is also a lot of praise for those games. ME2 was still very successful and got a lot of praise and ME3 even did ok commercially. Even when the criticism is just about change, sometimes things don't need to be changed and some changes are not good, some ideas are not good ideas. When I said it was too wordy I meant that there are times in Deadfire when certain words just aren't needed, especially in the fully voiced story moments I don't need to hear "berath said" every time Berath says something and having every movement of certain characters just seems unneeded too. Even if whether or not it annoys a person is subjective whether or not it is needed isn't, when it makes no difference other than adding extra fluff. I didn't notice this issue in POE but maybe that was because non of those lines were voiced. I don't really think the Comparison between TLJ and Deadfire can really go that far to be honest. Deadfire doesn't attempt to go in a completely different direction to other games in it's genre IMO or even compared to the last game. I like Deadfire, I understand and agree with many of the criticisms but I like it. TLJ is just a very badly written Disney Movie to me, I don't really have an issue with subversion or deconstruction. I liked Kotor 2 for the way it criticised Star Wars (and no i'm not some Avellone fanboy). It's just the script, it was so terrible and nonsensical. Time and time again the plot was sacrificed because Rian wanted to subvert something and he couldn't be bothered to make it make sense. I don't think it's nitpicking to say that multiple scenarios in that movie make no sense. I've seen several videos that attempt to explain them and they just completely fail and devolve into attacking the people who didn't like the movie. I just don't really care if the star wars movie goes in a different direction or not and there were many examples of ways TLj could have gone in a different direction in a way that was meaningful but instead just kind of plays around with it and then drops it. I don't see any of that kind of scenario for Deadfire because it doesn't make the same kinds of choices TLJ does and isn't getting the same kind of criticism. Nor is it getting the same amount of criticism. No need to apologise though I wasn't upset by anything you said.

Mine arrived today, nothing broken and i'm happy with everything. No shirt yet but that gets sent separately doesn't it? Edit: I'm in the UK

I just realized you've probably stopped paying attention to this thread, but : I can't really say for sure. I think it varies depending on the person, but I *think* the general rule is that the mechanics and narrative of Pillars don't hit the beats some players assume it should. Which is why I love these games and Obsidian games in general. They make more believable, thought out worlds and people and ideas. But if you loved Bioware and whatever tropes and patterns the company follows, I suspect Pillars - which almost goes out of its way to not just be the same RPG story, and be more grounded and introspective, and ask uncomfortable questions and have intentionally imperfect solutions to hard problems - is not satisfying. The Last Jedi to some extent got the same response from Star Wars fans. It subverts expectations, which is cool, but some people were attached to the kind of stories that produce those expectations. Ah yeah, I never expected this discussion to last this long and i've been very busy recently so not had much time to read threads here. I am still paying attention though. It's an interesting idea, as I mentioned I definately agree that some things are just not to certain people's taste but I guess I was talking more about mechanics there or just the way of story telling. As for the story beats, there is a lot of subnjectivity there but there is also objectivity too. There are some objective ways to criticise story telling. I think Deadfire being far too wordy is one, the length the text goes to in order to describe everything. Any editor will tell you not to do that if there is not a good reason to do that. As for The Last Jedi, I didn't like that movie for many reasons but the most simple criticism I can give is that simply "subverting expectations" does not make a good story. Doing the opposite of what the last movie built people up to expect constantly does not in and of itself make a movie good. I don't understand people who consider that movie brilliant just because it had a bunch of twists in it but then that is just my opinion and it's off topic. Anyway I still loved both POE games for the most part but I don't really think they are particularly "introspective" or "ask uncomfortable questions". It sort of sounds like you are saying it is just too deep for some people and that's why they dislike it and that it's the same for TLJ. I can't say I agree with that idea to be honest.

Man this thread is old lol. But that quote above is your answer to this whole entire thread. The real question - why does a game like Dragon Quest 11 sell 3 million copies and it isn't even out in the US yet - DOS can't even boast of that??? Easy - it is accessible to all ages - Dragon Quest more than DOS, DOS more than POE, checkers more than chess. Or even better why did RPGs stop having text based interactions with NPCs where you had to type in your questions rather than pick them from the menu (fyi - I was really upset when this happened lol)? - Easy answer, because it was difficult and not accessible for everyone (or you could blame RPGs like Dragon Quest again). To go along with this why did RPGs start to abandon text heavy descriptions - again easy answer, better audio and visuals - why read a story when you can watch it, which made it more accessible. For that matter why did Larian abandon the really hard puzzle quests in DOS1 when they created DOS2? Same answer - people get frustrated and it wasn't accessible. Why does a game like Pillars get criticized for being text heavy - because it is and not everyone likes it that way - its not as accessible as a story line with lighter writing and straightforward plots - it literally makes you read almost everything. Why does Pillars seem boring? Because RPGs have changed and are more adventure games these days and that's what people want! I am really happy that a game like DOS2 is doing as well as it is since it means that many core elements of the classic RPGs, though changed and updated, will continue to exist. Pillars structure in terms of story and pacing, open world and side quests is pretty good, definitely great for role playing. it's too much to get into the comparisons and details for me so I will leave that to everyone else. I would argue that Pillars is much more like a "Malazan Book of the Fallen" novel and Divinty a lot closer to a "Stormlight Archive" novel. I always thought that Pillars pulled a lot from the Erikson books, and I would be interested in creating a sapper like Fiddler to play in Deadfire!!! This is an interesting argument but I am not sure I agree, sure the "dated" aspects of POE and POE2 turn a lot of people off. Like for example a lot of people don't like the rtwp aspects of the game or all the reading they have to do. These games were made for a crowd that are looking for those things though and it's mostly the opinions of those people I am referring to. I'm also relatively new to these kinds of games as most of them were kinda before my time. I first played the baldur's gate series only a few years ago and i would say you could make the same kind of "dry/ boring/ sparse main story" complaints about BG1 but I wouldn't say you could for BG2, well u could but I would disagree. POE is boring to some people because it is an older and no longer popular or accessable style of video game but that's not why fans of those kinds of games are criticising the plot.

I'm not saying there is no reason to complain, I think the descriptions for each tier could have been clearer evidenced by the fact that several people didn't know they were not getting a disk. I knew there wasn't going to be a disk though, it was stated several times so yeah I agree they could have been clearer but they never promiced a disk and you could have easily found clarification. I havent recieved anything yet so I can't speak about the quality of the items but as others have stated this was a crowdfunding campaign. You backed the game, the rewards are just extras, a thankyou for backing at higher tiers. Sure they could be better but I didn't back at a collectors edition tier for some statue I wanted to support the game and have something I can stick on a shelf. You are definately going to feel ripped off if you are expecting the items to be of equal value to what you payed.

I'm just glad I decided to have this sent to my work adress rather than home because I've moved since I backed and am about to move again. I'm not angry but it's pretty amazing how terrible whatever deals you had before were. For the items to be so massivly delayed and then have someone back out altogether.

Jan Jensen, Minsc and Edwin are certainly more likeable at first than Aveline and Vivienne but that's because they are written to be campy and entertaining to make up for their lack of content. Most of the BG companions are completely one dimensional with very little content. On the topic of Aveline's character type I like those kinds of characters but to be honest Aveline and Cassandra are more or less the same character but Cassandra is just for the most part a better executed version. Apart from the romance novel thing, I found Aveline's being bad at dating thing a lot less cringey.

I didn't vote on like morality but more on how much I enjoyed them as characters so if I had enjoyed how they handled woedica i'd certainly have voted for her. Tho tbh I was not a big fan of what they did with her in this game, she was very one dimensional and her involvment seems to ignore everything she did in the last game.

Can you not?

I never played the first Pillars on POTD because veteran was hard enough for me, though that was a few years ago and I was relativly new to these kinds of games but still I ain't some kind of amazing gamer who can beat any challenge type person. The game is still not that hardmost of the time even on POTD, maybe you need to rethink your strategy, or change your gear? Or maybe respec a character or two? If you were relying on something OP that is now been nerfed maybe you just haven't learned a decent strategy yet?

The game needed reballencing POTD and Veteran were jokes, i'm not saying I am 100% a fan of the way they did it but it needed doing. As for this majority/minority thing, it was one of the biggest criticisms of the game and it was a big part of reviews that were negitive or not entirely positive. It's still not really all that hard and you can always play on a lower dificulty. This forum may not contain a majority of players but it does have a lot of backers on it if Obsidian wants us to back another game adressing our concerns is a good idea. I'm not saying cowtow to backers but the then majority of players aren't going to play on POTD.

That's actually a problem I have with Dragon Age Inquisition, the fighter and Rogue classes all have these flashy magic look effects to their combat abilities, that's always been there to an extent but it was really bad in that game. As for pillars I don't think it's too much and at least there is a lore reason for it.

Yeah the free dlc thing is obviously an attempt to boost longterm sales, I hope it works. More companies should support their games this way post launch if there is stuff left over that didn't make the final cut then releasing it for free is a lot better than canning it or charging for it.

Yeah this annoyed me a lot. Like sure I get why you can't shout it from the rooftops constantly, who would believe you? I don't get why you can't tell specific NPC's though even if they may not believe you there are very few options to ever bring it up. I can tell xoti that pallegina is right about the gods but I can't tell her why I think that and it's framed as taking sides rather than stating a fact. Parts of the roleplaying aspects of this game is built around whether or not you support the gods but not being able to bring up that very important fact removes a lot of the player's choice. If they didn't want to deal with the telling people thing yet they could have just had berath threaten your life if you did or something?

Yeah I am not a fan of how long the recoivery is for my party now, it's just annoying.

According to Obsidian's origional description of them each are unique "Godlike manifest their divine heritage in a variety of ways: wings, horns, strange birthmarks, talons, odd eyes - but they always manifest it somehow". It's just that in the game there are only so many heads and only godlike companins have unique models. So there may be no distinction between Tekehu and any other godlike of Ondra, he just may be more representative of her association with the sea than of her association with the moon. Or it could be that he comes from a land where Ondra is worshipped as a trickster sea goddess rather than a goddess of the moon and of the sea. Or maybe it is just because he really is her very special boy and so he has an extra special appearance. As for why Fire, Nature, Moon and Death? I can see why it would be too much work to have a godlike for every god and I think maybe these ones are some of the easiest to represent in game whilst also actually being appealing to play as.

This could actually be an interesting option if it posed this question and wasn't just "ta-da! you can become a god!". You have the option to create a god and maybe even a god with your name and personality but it won't actually be you. Is that something you would choose? I still think it's a bit too close to BG though, the series should try it's best to do it's own thing.

would the god actually be the watcher though or some new being that includes the watcher's soul?

I just find the whole concept of "destroy everything and replace it with nothing" really uninteresting. He's a suitable wildcard for when/if they decie to end the series. I also think the pantheon has too many gods associated with death in some way. I can see that, he's kinda the bogeyman of the pantheon or scapegoat I guess? I just felt he lived up to his position more than some of the others did.