MaxQuest

Good question. Since DEX coefficient is now aggregated additively, it gets diluted by other bonuses. At the same time it's impact is not that much reinforced by maluses... (like MIG was on grazes in PoE1) because of double inversion. Here's a mini-comparison: And what conclusion can we make? Not sure completely, but on first glance I'd say: - if you have many speed bonuses, it might be better to max MIG > PER >= DEX for auto-dps - if you have maluses, then it depends how much. At 50% maluses, you might want to either leave DEX at 8 (i.e. some point where PER becomes better investment), or max it. P.S. Btw there is no longer any inter-action delay when auto-attacking. I suppose the delay from PoE1 was related to exit-time on idle animation, and was finnaly removed. P.P.S. Just a note: that delay wasn't influenced by DEX, that's why I mention it. Under the current system, it should work like that: #1. Heavy Armor + Warbow with overdraw: - base_attack_time: 1.1s - base_recovery_time: 3.0s - recovery_steps_sum = (1 - 1/0.645) + (1 - 1/0.5) = -0.55 + -1 = -1.55 - recovery_speed_coef = 1 / (1 - steps_sum) = 1 / 2.55 = 0.392 - final_attack_time = 1.1s - final_recovery_time = 3.0/0.392 = 7.65s #2. Dual Sabres, TWS, Frenzy, 20 DEX, no penalties: - base_attack_time: 0.7s - base_recovery_time: 3.0s - attack_steps_sum = (1.25 - 1) + (1.3 - 1) = 0.55 - attack_speed_coef = 0.55 + 1 = 1.55 - recovery_steps_sum = (2 - 1) + (1.2 - 1) + (1.25 - 1) + (1.3 - 1) = 1.2 + 0.55 = 1.75 - attack_speed_coef = 1.75 + 1 = 2.75 - final_attack_time = 0.7 / 1.55 = 0.45s - final_recovery_time = 3.0/2.75= 1.09s Depends on the used definition, and I've seen a few) Let's take DEX. Each point increases a related action speed bonus in 0.03 increments. Absolute gain is always the same. But relative gain is going down. Adding 30 extra horsepower to a 500hsp monster, is relatively less than adding those 30 to a 145hsp mini cooper. Or think of adding water drops to the sea. I call this: "intrinsic diminishing returns". And if absolute gain was also going down: simply "diminishing returns". That's like in wow, fear once and you get 8s duration; fear again and it will have 4s duration; and 2s on 3rd appliance. You made the same investment, but got a lesser result even in absolute values. Also, I often use the term "diluted". Think of MIG in PoE1 on crit. Since it was additive, going from 10 to 11 MIG, would net you a 1.53/1.50 = 1.02 (instead of x1.03) increase. And, the inverse of it would be "reinforced". That's PoE1 MIG on grazes. 0.53/0.5 = 1.06. So if you grazed a lot, and assuming you could not rise your accuracy, you really wanted high MIG score.

Thanks for the link. I'd say Josh seems to exaggerate a bit) as the increase in area was not exponential, but polynomial (specifically quadratic). But that's nitpicking I have played a bit with the numbers, and yeap +12-15% in area correlates well with the old +6% in radius. The only thing required is to cap the penalty at 0. Because if you had 3 INT at +15% area per point; that would be coef = (1 - 7 * 0.15) = -0.05

reply part 1: at the end of previous page. reply part 2: Let me give a few examples) - Swift Strikes: coef = 1.2 => step = coef - 1 = +0.2 - Frenzy: coef = 1.25 => step = coef - 1 = +0.25 - TwoWeapon Style: coef = 1.20 => step = coef - 1 = +0.2 - Dual Wielding: coef = 2 => step = coef - 1 = +1 - Overdraw: coef = 0.5 => step = 1 - 1/coef = -1 - Heavy armor: coef = 0.645 => step = 1 - 1/coef = -0.55 - Medium armor: coef = 0.740 => step = 1 - 1/coef = -0.35 In the end, you add all steps together, get steps_sum, and convert it to final coefficient: speed_coefficient = steps_sum >= 0 ? steps_sum + 1 : 1 / (1 - steps_sum) And this coefficient can't be negative) I open the thread in two tabs)

Seems so. Armor only hinders recovery, so if you mainly use guns (and let's say rarely toss a few spells with fast recovery), you can basically wear the heaviest armor without repercussions. I would especially keep an eye on crossbows. Now that they have 0.7 attack duration, 0 recovery and 3.0s reloading, they are really good at 17-22 base damage, 7 pen and 12 range. List of all weapons for reference: link Before iirc you linked to a quote from Josh which suggested that armor will eventually affect reload duration. Did they change their minds, or have they just not implemented it yet?.... Yeah. Here's the excerpt: Probably they have changed their minds regarding armor. But stuff like Frenzy, Swift Strikes, and +/-% Action Speed stuff does affect reloading now. Good point. Availability of crafting materials coupled with alchemy vendors will have a big influence on how will alchemy integrate into the game. - The current formula is easy to write down and explain, but yeap, once there is a single malus, you can't calculate nothing without a calculator. - The PoE1 was harder to explain and lay down on paper, not to mention that you had to know which coefficients are going to be aggregated in multiplicative and which in additive manner. But it was easier to compute stuff in mind. - There was kinda another possible approach, that could combine the best of two worlds: divide [the sum of bonuses] by [sum of maluses]. E.g. you are affected by two bonuses that increase your speed by 20% and 30%; and one malus that decreases your speed by 50%: coef = (1 + 0.2 + 0.3) / (1 + 0.5) = 1. Voila. No negative numbers; easy to calculate and implement. But perhaps they indeed wanted such behaviour. 1. +x% Action Speed effects do not stack. Only the highest apply. This includes: Frenzy, Swift Strike, Potion of Deftness, Potion of Relentless Strikes (if I remember right how it's called). It's pretty similar to PoE1 in terms of stacking. 2. because of double inversion, I would say: a variable amount of bonuses, as it changes depending on all related effects that affect you. 3. it should be true for being in heavy armor as well. It's just a chain of procs. If you crit, you get an extra instant free attack. If it crits, you get an extra one again, and so on. The primary factor here is the chance to crit. 4. No no. It's not that you calculate recovery and AFTER that dual-wielding halves it. DW bonus is taken into account DURING recovery calculation. As for stacking Two-Weapon Style with DW, it goes like this: - Dual Wielding gives you +100% recovery speed - Two-Weapon Style gives you +20% recovery speed So: - step_sum = (2 - 1) + (1.2 -1) = 1.2 - speed_coef = 1.2 + 1 = 2.2 - recovery = base_recovery / 2.2 Imagine two characters: - A: wields a single sabre. @10DEX: 0.7s attack + 3.0s recovery = 3.7s - B: dual-wields them. @10DEX: 0.7s attack + 1.5s recovery = 2.2s (or x1.68 faster) Q: How much DEX would A need, in order to deliver a blow every 2.2s? A: 66 DEX - From auto-attacking perspective, it's like A is getting +12 PER bonus for attacking with a single weapon; while B is getting +56 DEX for dual-wielding) (ofc these numbers change a bit if you are affected by additional bonuses and maluses; but without them that is) - And now there are also FullAttack abilities. Basically you hit not every 2.2s, but every: 0.7s, 2.2s, 0.7s, 2.2s, and so on, because mainhand recovery is skipped. That's 1.45s on average. So if we had A and B both being paladins, B would effectively deliver his attacks x2.55 (3.7/1.45) faster than A color=#888888](up from x1.68, while he has FoD charges)[/color] One malus has a greater effect than one would expect. But many maluses is suddenly not that. It's like the system heavily smooths the edge cases, when we have many bonuses, or many maluses. Let's take that warbow again: As MadScientist already mentioned: +100% recovery from modals, disoriented and blind +55% from heavy armor plus -50% action speed from some other modals, which also answers his question: if there are any attack phase related maluses.

Mildly interesting: Psychic Backlash used to trigger only once per encounter, and was a really meh passive. But from around v3.02? it started to have no limit, and became beyond must-have, and probably even too OP. There was also a patch when all weapon based prone and stuns were changed to behave like regular prone and stuns. Seems like Backlash was missed)

I do now. Armor tooltips state the recovery penalty, like "+55% Recovery Time". But the game operates with "speed" coefficients for it's (at least intermediate) calculations. Thus: - in case of heavy armor: we have x0.645 recovery speed instead of x1.55 recovery time - in case of medium armor: we have x0.740 recovery speed instead of x1.35 recovery time - in case of light armor: we have x0.833 recovery speed instead of x1.20 recovery time We get these values by dividing 1 on them, e.g: 1/1.55 = 0.645. Interestingly if you inspect gamebundles, the game actually stores straight up 0.645, and not 1.55. Now, what does Armored Grace? It adds +0.2. So: - in case of heavy armor: x0.645 -> x0.845 recovery speed -> x1.18 recovery time - in case of heavy armor: x0.740 -> x0.940 recovery speed -> x1.06 recovery time - in case of light armor: x0.833 -> x1 recovery speed -> x1 recovery time Note: armor recovery speed coef is capped at 1, i.e. armor type can't make you faster than you are. But that's for tooltip. And here a concrete example for warbow recovery in different armors (@10 DEX, no overdraw): True that. This double inversion seems to over-smooth the edge cases. Any malus will heavily counter any bonus you have. But if you have many (and only) maluses, the final slowdown won't be that big. I love that you give us these calculation examples. And in the example above, am I right in reading it like this: Even with DEX 20, overdraw will always give the player less DPS (assuming everything else is the same), so if you want to do more damage per second, skip overdraw? Hmm, yes and no. Enabling overdraw brings you from [0.846s attack time + 2.3s recovery time] to [0.846s + 5.1s]; i.e. reduces your dps action rate by x1.88 In theory it may be useful to enable overdraw when you are attacking a high AR target, in cases when it will bring you from dealing 25% damage (due to underpenetration) to 50% and especially if to 75%. But in practice we as players will likely just find other ways to rise our PEN high; specifically ways that won't require us to attack that slower. Hehe, I guess so And especially keep an eye on Deftness Potion, as it scales marvelously with alchemy.

I've taken a look at how Attack/Action Speed works in Deadfire, and will list the aggregated info in this thread. First of all here are the main differences between Beta2 and PoE1: - weapons' recovery duration (on average) was doubled - but they now have almost halved attacking duration - reloading weapons no longer have recovery phase at all - weapons deal damage right at the end of attacking phase (instead of doing that somewhat in the middle of it) - in PoE1 we could "abuse" Quick Switch and skip recovery of firearms along with reloading. This is not possible in Deadfire even if firearms would still have said recovery. - many PoE1 "+x% Attack Speed" effects were changed to "+x% Action Speed" - in PoE1 attack phase duration was influenced only by DEX. In Deadfire everything that states "+x% Action Speed" affects it. This is minor for weapons (since they have really fast attack), but big for spells. - speed system / formulas / stacking was heavily rewritten - dexterity bonus is no longer multiplicative with other coefficients. All multipliers are now aggregated in additive manner. - and maluses go through double inversion (like in current damage calculation) In practice that results in: if you have many bonuses and let's say 1 malus - that malus will have a much greater effect on the final value. - stacking speed bonuses subject to increasing returns in PoE1; and is subject to diminishing returns in Deadfire. Notes: - it looks like reload duration was decided to be left unafected by the armor type. - Swift Strikes and Frenzy seemed to not affect attack duration in Beta1 (they do in Beta2, and it's now consistent with other "+x% Action Speed" effects, like: potions, bloodlust and dex). Now regarding the formula: phase_duration = base_phase_duration / speed_coefficientwhere: speed_coefficient = steps_sum >= 0 ? steps_sum + 1 : 1 / (1 - steps_sum)where: steps_sum = step_1 + step_2 + ... + step_nwhere: step_n = coef_n >= 1 ? coef_n - 1 : 1 - 1 / coef_n And a concrete example. Warbow has: - 1.1s base attack duration - 3.0s base recovery duration Q: What attack/recovery it will have at 20 DEX with overdraw? > Let's compute attack duration: - steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) = 0.3 - speed_coef = 1.3 + 1 = 1.3 - attack_duration = 1.1s / 1.3 = 0.846s > Let's compute recovery duration: - steps_sum = (1.3 - 1) + (1 - 1 / 2) = 0.3 + -1 = -0.7 - speed_coef = 1 / (1 - -0.7) = 1/1.7 = 0.588 - recovery_duration = 3.0s / 0.588 = 5.1s Result: at 20 DEX and overdraw, warbow will have: ~ 0.8s attack duration ~ 5.1s recovery duration Btw, ever wondered why: - plate armor displays: +55% recovery time - scale armor displays: +35% recovery time - plate armor with armored grace: +18% recovery time - scale armor with armored grace: +6% recovery time ?

Balance is very important to me. After the first kind of RP and blind playthrough done with predefined companions, I usually strive for the strongest party in general, and strongest build for my MC in particular. And if there is only 1 way to achieve it, it will heavily diminish the replay'ability factor for me. Additionally: if that one best build is also very obvious - there will also be a sense of disappointment, as there is nothing left to figure and try out (party power-building fun ended right after it began) That's why I liked PoE1 so much: The key is: - all options are at least ~viable. - there is more than 1 optimal option in every domain. And these optimal options are different, unique, but somewhat equal in power between them. * in place of "option" insert: "class", "role", "weapon style", "weapon type", "armor type", "dumped attribute x", "maxed attribute x", etc - If something is OP to the level of being an obvious I WIN button - there is no fun. - If something is strong, but you had to explore / figure it out, and build the character and party in a specific way - then it's another story, and feels closer to being a reward for effort. But then again there should also be alternative ways to specialize your character that are almost equally as strong, but do play differently.

A). Few base reloading durations stated in tooltips are off. I have frapsed several cycles and consistently get: - 1. Crossbow reload duration is 3.0s not 5.0s. - 2. Arquebus reload duration is 6.1s not 6.8s. - 3. Pistol reload duration is 4.67s not 5.0s. B). Few modals behave strange: - 1. Interrupting Shot (Crossbow): image - I have a feeling that "-50% Action Speed" in no way should half reloading duration. (probably UI problem) - 2. Overbearing Shot (Arbalest): image - same as above - 3. Rushed Reload (Pistol): image - does nothing. I have frapsed the new duration and it is not just an UI error, reloading duration indeed doesn't change. C). +% Action Speed effects increase displayed reloading duration. Example with potion of deftness: image.

In PoE code you can find such entities like StatusEffect and StatusEffectParams. The first is related to passive and lasting effects that are affecting the character himself. While the second are CharacterStats unrelated. For example stun-on-crit weapon enchant is a StatusEffectParam. It gets "attached" when you start the swing with your weapon, and is "dettached" right after attack roll/resolution (usually somewhere in the middle of attack phase animation) In PoE1 afaik, this entity keeps no reference to source, so no additional checks are made. And this StatusEffectParam is applied to anything that goes through attack resolution during the same time window. P.S. If I understood correctly this should not happen in Deadfire, as code was heavily rewritten, better arranged and effects "know" of their source.

K works as hotkey to insta-kill the mouseovered creature, if you have console enabled

... and I started to imagine how to multi-class one, and what the most fitting subclasses are...

It's also very weird that you can't hit allies with normal attacks when the new Aegis of Loyalty works only with unnarmed attacks now. Is my understanding that this is actually hotkey related probled correct? I.e. we cannot press A and click on character to attack him. And Ctrl-A for select all is not working as well.

Gladly it gets better though. I can fraps beta2 @30fps on 1080p While frapsing beta1 on 720p gave 26fps at most. P.S. Hopefully Obs will fix the current memory leaks, since fps gets lower over time; and also game loading in background while alt-tabbed.

The funniest was on one private wow cataclysm server. Devs implemented attack speed bonuses the wrong way. For example you had axe with 3.6s attack interval. And at 90% haste it was 3.6*(1-0.9) instead of 3.6/(1+0.9). With enough haste and bloodlust/time warp auto-attack damage was skyrocketing above any common sense The server was up for 1+ year, but nobody questioned why are fury warriors periodically so good at pve)) Also it was hilarious to witness the Skyrim space exploration program run by the local giants. As for PoE1, it was fun when Borresaine had Time Siphon enchant. In v2.00 quite often it's effect was removed only visually, but actually persisted after combat end

No problem There is one more partially related bug: - +% Action Speed effects, increase the displayed reloading duration: image. - although in reality they actually decrease it. In case of arquebus reloading went down from 182-183 frames to 82 (I have frapsed it) Which also points on one more tooltip bug: - base reloading duration of arquebus is 6.1s not 6.8s

If alchemy would improve the quality of crafted potions: - we would have only one character per party who would rise it. - we would use alchemy-buffing scrolls (if there are such) and create potions in big batches - the bought potions from NPC vendors would not benefit from our alchemy. On the other hand, I agree, having alchemy increase the quality of crafted potions is much more... natural. At the moment it looks like current alchemy is some sort of witcher mutation that allows you to get more from the stuff you consume. There could be also a compromise option: - there are few alchemist vendors around the world, with alchemy > 0 - alchemy increases the positive qualities of crafted potions, poisons, antidots and boms - alchemy decreases the negative qualities of consumed/used potions, poisons, antidots and bombs (if any) - you can leave alchemy at 0, and benefit from NPC potions; or you can a really dedicated alchemist that is capable of making stuff of better quality that can be found around the world (at least in the first 80% of the game) Hmm, wasn't expected that potions will scale differently. But... it's interesting. Some potions will end up useful only for high-alchemy characters; but there will still be stuff useful for builds with 0 alch. I am... not that sure of that. Tooltips were changed yes. And the displayed bonuses were inverted from +%speed to -%time (via this mini-formula: t = 1 - (1 / 1 + s)). Also +50% attack speed in Deadfire is not the same as in PoE1. Stacking bonuses now suffers from diminishing returns. But you are actually getting +125% action speed from Potion of Deftness at 20 alchemy: image coef = 1 + 1.25 = 2.25 recovery = 3.0s / coef = 1.33s | and as you can see in screenshot it is displayed as 1.3s | I have also frapsed this, and got exactly 40 frames

It's definitely worth it now. And also there are some nice poisons which scale with alchemy as well. E.g. Stone Joint deals 10 damage per tick at alchemy 0, or 40 damage at alchemy 20. But hah, it's funny how alchemy doesn't even mention that it affects potions: alchemy description

this

Just want to ask if irregular scaling is intended or not? img bb code seems to be disabled here, so here's the link to comparison: image

I am very optimistic about the state of Deadfire by the time v3.0+ will come around But share the doubts about combat experience by the time of release. P.S. Interesting, I've never played more than 2 playthroughs for the story (in any rpg). All of subsequent runs are for power-building alone, which is the main replayability factor for me. And that's why I find it very important when there is a variety between optimized builds.

Hmm. From one point of view I agree with you (since the listed methods require either some experience, or availability of worthy hard cc spells). From another, not quite sure. A new or inexperienced player will unlikely play on PotD, or upscale content, and it will take more time for his squishy backline to fall under the pressure of the enemies that have rushed through (which are also less in numbers). So dunno; am neither convinced, nor have any concrete stance on this matter. At least not yet. Do you have any suggestions regarding taunting? Personally only the following come to mind atm: - plain and simple taunting: enemy is forced to attack the taunter for x seconds. Although it's unclear what if player wants to cast an AoE or CC; and what if enemy taunts the player. - more abilities with stuck and immobilize afflictions - some abilities like blink, that would hobble everyone around the starting points - intercept abilities: e.g. a fighter can rush and intercept the next n blows directed at his ally

Yeap. Offtank control freak. You give him Gauntlets of Swift Action and either [Malina's Boots + White Crest Armor] or [boots of Stability/Fenwalkers + Argwes Adra]. For boss fights you can give him some good hide, leather or scale armor if you want instead. In this case he'll be able to achieve zero recovery with spells after casting DAoM. I had a playthrough where my minor-blights-based wizard, despite contributing to damage dealing, was most useful because of his ability to start the fight with Shadowflame and continue with Slicken/Call to Slumber. So in a party that already has lots of damage dealing stuff, it's better to build him as pure crowd-controller. And the saved points from MIG, are going to CON making him also a very decent offtanker (when in plate armor). Regarding weapons: it better be a fast weapon, because if he made an attack, you will have to wait less till he's ready to cast a spell. And there are several options: - defensive: the +5def from hatchets is passive. E.g: Captain Viccilo - offensive: weapons that stun or prone on crit. This wizard has high PER and can paralyze, so he can crit through deflection relatively often. E.g: starcaller - supportive: Forgotten Tear, Spelltongue Aloth will work on Hard and below. But on PotD will likely feel like a liability if used that way.

Agreed about Might. But unsure about Strength. I think giving STR only +3% to weapon damage, feels a bit underwhelming, because (under the last STR suggestions): STR: - affects the damage (done with weapons only) - provides a slightly better conservation of limited resources and ability usages (provided you manage to use them all during combat, with no "left-overs") - althought the STR is multiplicative now with most of damage bonuses; it is inverse additive with grazes and under-penetration (and in this cases the benefit from STR bonus is almost halved, because of the current double inversion) DEX: - affects the speed of everything: damage dealing, healing, buffing, debuffing, summoning - provides a slightly better uptime of on-hit/on-crit effects - makes it easier/quicker to interrupt stuff RES - affects the damage (done via spells) - affects healing (done via spells, as we don't want to hurt the self-sustainance of offensive phys-dpsers) - provides bonus concentration Absolutely agreed about versatility vs specialization trade-offs. I'd just like to add that it would be great if every specialist had around the same amount of required attributes. Atm we can have a damage-oriented rogue who needs STR, DEX and PER, so he can be built as: 18/12/18/18/8/3 and be great what he's doing. Now let's take a damage-oriented cipher focused on aoe-powers. He needs STR, DEX, PER, INT and RES. And a specialist wants all these maxed. That's a bit unfair that one dedicated specialist needs 3 maxed stats, while another needs 5. That's why I mentioned those hybrid talents as they were suggested in an attempt to take at least 1 stat out (but such that not all representatives of the class would auto take/benefit from it) (note: unlike STR, the MIG model does not need them). Concentration coming from strength would cause many questions. Probably it's better to keep looking for other alternatives. Me too) I like the previous suggestions much more over these last two. But these have the benefit of "requiring minimum changes"/"being faster to implement".

Well... that's what hard-cc is for) Also you could try the following: - body or door block if possible - unstealthing your front and midline before your backline often makes shades teleport to someone of them, instead of going straight for your squishies. (note: enemy special abilities do have cooldowns) - designating a dedicated scape-goat. Take someone (usually a moon godlike), make sure that he has lowest deflection and freeze DR, and place him in midline. He'll serve as a magnet for those with LowestDamageThreshold and LowestDefense preferences (like shades and enemy barbarians). The idea is to disable them all via AoE cc effects, once they flock to the target. And you get bonus points if the goat has Swadling Sheet cloak, and Fenwalkers boots. Note: you could technically equip also stuff like: Malina's Boots, Gyrd Háewanes and Raiment of Wael's Eyes for the defensive procs, but you might need an additional disabler, since there is a high chance shades would switch to target with lower defenses.