Boeroer

"faffing about"... Why would you say that? I merely stated my opinion about resource regain via crits and kills and wanted to underline that it would be nice if a mechanic that gives you back your resource named "Guile", "Discipline", "Zeal" or whatever could somehow connect mechanic to the theme of that resource pool and class. Besides that I just threw in some random ideas. Hence my idea that a fighter might gain discipline from conversions. That would happen automatically and on the fly. And it wouldn't need any killing and crits-only which are already plentiful and which I don't really connect with Discipline. You could have talked about that example. Or the one where I said that causing an affliction could give the Rogue back Guile (10% chance or whatever - sounds easy to implement). That would be more in line with what you said about "keeping the eye on the ball". I did merely brainstorm some stuff so naturally not everything is refined. You picked the one example with the traps (which would only be an addition of course - not the only way a Rogue might get back Guile) that doesn't meet your taste. But it was just a quick idea because traps are pretty meh and it would give them some meaning. Imagine you tactically set up a trap before the encounter, you then lure an enemy who is giving you trouble over that trap (or you placed it between front line and backline to surprise rushers) and get back 5 Guile when it triggers (and hits). That would fit the Rogue class/theme and could be very helpful. It would be like storing away 5 Guile per encounter as backup for later in the fight. It would cost nothing but a trap and maybe an ability point for a passive. I still think it's a nice complementary idea for the Rogue class - but of course I might be the only one. I'm totally in favor of a simple and "eyes on the ball" approach - but it would be nice for me if it also meets the spirit of the class. It is at least a Role Playing Game. It would also be nice if the mechanic wasn't too complicated in order to be able to work with a mod. I would also like if some random brainstormed ideas were discussed constructively without disparaging them - as long as they are brought forward in a decent manner. If that was not the case I apologize.

If it has the look and feel of D:OS I or II I'm out.

Well it wouldn't be of any use if they led enemies into traps right at the start of the encounter when they still have full resources, right? So, possibly a weird mechanic... Anyway just a random idea about a "guileful" thing to do - it would need additional means to get back Guile of course. If you could set a trap during encounter while invisible that would make things a little more interesting I guess. Nothing that I would want to mod into the game though.

Depends on your class...

Bucklers don't lead to an ACC penalty by the way.

No, that's not feasible. The blind (or disorient after resistance) effect from Chillfog has quite the long duration. What works quite well for Forbidden Fist is Pull of Eora (but that's not an affliction in the sense of the gear either) because it's very short but pulsing and stuff like Tanglefoot. And I just remember a build that somebody did: that a Berserker/Forbidden Fist can make great use of the boots "Footsteps of the Beast" (which also fit the theme very well of course). Your Berserker confusion will make sure that the hobbling effect of the boots will also afflict yourself (normally it's foe only). It's a very short lasting effect but it's basically endless instances as long as you move (and it's non-damaging). You can get wounds and healig all the time. Actually that might be the best approach: you will have afflictions all the time (good for the gear) but at the same time the individual effects expire very quickly (great for Forbidden Fist). So I'll settle for Berserker/Forbidden Fist as well! Of course it will only really come together with the gear. Before that you'll have to be very careful with the self damage.

But this mechanic even more favors killing weak mobs for regaining resources. Killing weak mobs is easy. You don't even need resources for that. It's the prolonged fights against a tough foes (dragons, megabosses etc.) where you need to regain resources. And with such mechanics you can't (if there are no weak ads). As I said: the main reason why ciphers stink in boss fights (with high defenses) is their focus mechanic - which is very good against enemies that can be hit easily. I wouldn't want to repeat that with Rogues. Actually it would be cool if Rogues could regain Guile by luring enemies into traps (and seals - amongst other things). Would make those nearly useless traps quite useful.

I said "it sounded like Turn Based is the way to go" (not "PoE3 will be turn based") because Josh stated that a) D:OS I and II have it and sold very well and b) that the TB mode was very well received and generally seems to be preferred by players - and PoE only had RTwP because the Infitiy Engine games had it. I know that Josh prefers Turn Based over RTwP and classless over class based. And that the reason why PoE doesn't have this is only because of Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale. So maybe I should rephrase "Turn Based seems the way to go for Josh". Since he doesn't want to direct a Pillars-like game any time soon it might well be that an eventual PoE3 will be led by somebody else and this person might have no problem with RTwP and classes - so that a PoE3 can be rel. similar to 1 and 2. The DLCs and the later added subclasses (Arcane Archer, Forbidden Fist and so on) were not designed and directed by Josh but other people and they turned out pretty well - so why not? Maybe - just maybe - we might see a PoE3 by non-Josh and a turn based, tactical game in the world of Eora by yes-Josh. Who knows? Since this is all speculation anyway one might as well reach high.

They don't stack. It's either nothing, Resistance or Immunity. Nothing in between like 2 tiers of Resistance or something like that. @Kaylon: what is the reason behind Berserker/Forbidden Fist? You won't profit from the Berserker's self damage as Forbidden Fist (as you would if you took vanilla, Helwalker or Nalpasca Monk) - and the cumulated self damage if you use Berserker Frenzy and Forbidden Fist Curse at the same time might kill you very quickly at higher Power Levels...? I think you can't shorten Berserker's self damage with high RES and Strand of Favor etc., can you? Would Alacrity's self damage also count as "afflicted" for the gear? Steel Garrote/Forbidden Fist is quite nice by the way: enfeeble target, then use Garrote for a longer paralyze (* INT bonus * 1.5 duration) and leech the life from that helpless dude with some attacks. Don't know if Forbidden Curse alone would trigger the gear in this case.

Regaining resources on kill or crit is always kind of unneccessary because you are already on the winning path and it works best against low defense mobs. Against single tough enemies it's quite useless. Unfortunately those are the encounters that take the longest and where you would need the additional resources. That's why ciphers usually suck at generating focus against such enemies (except Psions). Monks (except Shattered Pillas) and Chanters (except partly Skalds) have that unusual solution that the resource generation is not connected to their offensive performance in battle. And that's good. Of course for Rogues it kind of makes sense that they would regain resources via crits or killing since they are good at that. But if we look at the name of their resource (Guile) it would even make more sense for them to regain it if they did something "guileful". Like landing an attack from stealth and invisibility, applying a DoT or affliction and so on. For example a passive that gives a 25% chance to regain Guile when an affliction is successfully applied. But this has the risk that AoE appliances of afflictions would break it. So one has to think about it thoroughly. But you get the idea. Rogues can already regain Guile via Gambit by the way but you can't get back more than you spend. For Fighters I would have wished for a regain of discipline if they (for example) shrugged off some damage via conversion of hit quality - e.g. when a Fighter gets crit but it gets downscaled to a hit. Maybe also when they upscale their hit quality. THis would also make some of the poor performing abilites (graze to hit) more appealing. All that +x resources on crit and kill is kind of boring - but it seems to be the only thing the designers could come up with for those classes that don't have a resource replenishment from the start. Rangers should reain Bond from doing things that strenghen the bond between Ranger and Animal Companion. Like when they work together successfully. This could be that the Ranger profits from a Takedown Combo boost with one of his attacks (regaining that 1 Bond for Takedown Combo) or if the Animal Companion hits with Predtor's Sense which the Ranger set up with one if his DoTs. A passive that gives a chance for regaining Bond If the Ranger heals or revives the Companion. If an enemy gets attacked by both the Ranger and AC while the enemy is Marked for the Hunt... stuff like that. Just emphasize the sort of resource and "theme" the class has. Monks have the wounds (and mortification) mechanic because suffering is their whole business. Chanters collect phrases because they sing chants. Now Rogues should regain some Guile because they do underhanded stuff. Rangers should regain Bond by actually bonding with their AC in some way. Fighters should regain Discipline by pulling themselves together and such. With Paladins (losing allies) it fits quite well I think. That's a nice touch and also works quite well as soon as you employ summons. With party members only it would be not enough Zeal. I personally would exclude summons but make the Zeal gain a lot higher. But it's ok as it is.

It totally works - but Berserker/Beckoner is always reserved for Grave Calling (Chilling Grave) for me. Arcane Knight also sounds right. Pale Elf. Resistance against PER afflicitions. Stepping into your own Chillfogs and only getting disoriented while the others are blind. Profiting from the affliction. Or maybe even Streetfighter/Wizard (Pale Elf). Same principle, but way more offensive and you'll get -50% recovery time to counter the disorient debuff while all others are really slow with the blind. Also Riposte might work really nice in combo with Wintertide Bulwark's "Frostbitten Palisades". Wizards self buffs let you have high deflection. Beware Arcane Dampener though.

My first thought is that those are rel. late game items (from lvl 15 on of you're rather good at this game). It's hard to plan a whole build around lateish game stuff. Eh I mean not hard to theorycraft it but to actually play it: you will play with suboptimal gear for a very long time and then, when you get it, there's maybe not that much of the game left. Second thought: With the other two DLCs following it maybe ok though. The gear is based on afflictions: applying and receiving them. So your first ideas should go into that direction.

You behave as if this was set in stone. I just said it because Josh reported that Turn Based Mode of Deadfire was very well received and that games like D:OS I and II also were successful because of Turn Based Combat. "It sounded like" isn't the same as "it will be". I know that a lot of people (hello SonicMage) like to communicate their impressions and opinions that way but I'm not one of them. It just sounded like it - to me. And to be honest Turn Based Combat nearly only has advantages over RTwP if you do it right. I like RTwP but it can be (visually) messy, hard to balance, harder to code. If it's too fast players get overwhelmed, if it's too slow it feels like combatants act underwater. And the perception of that is very individual. And if you ever played Pen & Paper RPGs you should be familiar with the general idea of Turn Based combat because RT is impossible there (unless you are LARPing it out somehow or so...). I don't know if anybody of you played Battle Brothers. But it's an example of a very efficient yet simple turn based system which leads to great tactical combat that can be very exciting and addictive. Even without magic, healing and very little AoE. You could take that ruleset and put it into a P&P version 1:1. I would love to see a Pillars game with somewhat similar mechanics. The turn based ruleset of the tabletop version of PoE and also the classless system look nice. Josh and his group also seem to have fun with it while they playtest and tweak it along the way. Maybe we will see an adaption for a CRPG at some point.

Since you have a reach weapon (pikes or quarterstaff - in this case quarterstaff) you don't need to put too much effort into making your Cipher sturdy. Just stay behind your front line. You can get 4 party members very quickly (and then get an adventurer from an inn if you feel like it - usually it's good to make one who's great at mechanics - often a rogue). Because if that your stat spread could be more "min-maxed" as if you wanted to stay in the front row. Later on, once you have a lot of hard CC options, your survivability doesn't matter that much anyway: not much can hurt you while it lies on the ground. But you still want to play somebody with good dialogue options I guess. And your stats should also fit a former Orlan slave who are known for their relentlessness - but also that they are not very strong. Maybe he even got sick as a slave and was dumped so where to die before he fled? The Dyrwood is a safe haven for slaves since slavery is forbidden there. So I would suggest a rel. balanced stat approach. With armor and items you can then go all offensive (light to no armor and so on). MIG: 12 CON: 6 DEX: 15 PER: 15 INT: 15 RES: 15 On a really min-maxed second row cipher you would dump CON and RES entirely and rely on you front line and heavy CC. But RES is a strong dialogue stat in PoE, so... also fits Orlans better to have it high(ish). Stats are not that important in the game anyway. At least not if we talk about a few points here and there. You don't need exorbitant MIG as two handed Cipher since you can get dmg bonuses from Two-Handed Style, Soul Whip/Biting Whip and Apprentice's Sneak Attack as well as lots of crits from attacking hard-cc'd enemies (like hitting a dude you just cast Mental Binding on). There are also melee Ciphers in the build list here I guess?

I mean he's as laid back as you can be with Llawran's Stick up your derrière.

So... your Priest did resurrect this thread then?

There are no fights you have to do solo. Paladins usually favor a stat- and skill spread that is good for a talkative character --> more dialogue options. Orlan Paladin is a bit unusual, but Orlans often get enslaved, so that fits. Ciphers are a lot more common among Orlans than with other races. Also a Cipher with good dialogue options is not hard to build. So maybe Orlan Cipher (melee) may be the way to go. A good weapon to a) stay close to the slave role and b) do good dmg (and thus generate good focus) is to grab Durance's Staff asap (it has a burning lash which is very useful that early in the game) and has two dmaage types (crush/burn). Later, in the first few levels of the Endless Paths, get Llawran's Stick. It has the speed enchantment which is one of the best for dps and focus gain. Enchant it with a lash (best something else than burn because you will keep Durance's Staff as backup - shock is good). Use Llawran's Stick primarrly and from the second row. Skill offensively. Pick Time Parasite. With Time Parasite, Llawran's Stick and some Durgan Steel you will attack with 0 recovery which is very, very fast. One of the best powers of Ciphers is all mind controls (Whisper of Treason etc.) and Amplified Wave.

I don't think they drop the Pillars IP. It might not be a PoE3 with Real Time with Pause though. If you listened to Josh Sawyers Deadfire Post Mortem talk: it sounded like they want to learn from the mistakes they made with Deadfire (I think they identified the biggest problems with it correctly). And to profit from that insights they would need to make another Pillars game - I hope. It also sounded as if Turn Based is the way to go.

He can get back Bond if he becomes brilliant. E.g. a Cipher can cast Ancestor's Memory on him. Or you build a Tactician/Ranger and become brilliant by flanking all enemies (e.g. with Whispers otEP + Mule Kick). There's also a cape which has a 1% chance to trigger brilliant every time you take a hit. Or a Chanter uses "His Heart Did Fill With the Light of the Dawn".

Summon duration can't be prolonged with anything else but INT and Power Level. Fire Stag lasts not terribly long (has a very high staring PL so no big PL bonus to duration) - but longer than Barring Death's Door + 2 times Salvation of Time. So in this case it's fine. You can speed up the Stag with a DEX Inspiration. That way you can get 1 (maybe 2) more explosions out of it. Still not gamebreaking, but fun somehow. You can simply shift+click on the ability and the stag will try to explode as often as it can without you babysitting. You might be able to use this tactic to bomb some encounters from a safe distance that are otherwise a bit risky. Nop idea - I just found out accidentially today and thought it's fun enough to share.

Hey! I found a way to make Fire Stag somewhat useful: Fire Stag has an unlimited use of self-destruct which does good burn/pierce damage in a fixed (friendly fire) AoE. Unfortunately it kills itself with the self-destruct (obviously). So the limitless uses are of little... use. But if you cast Lay on Hands (Shieldbearer) or Barring Death's Door (Priest) on the Stag it will not get killed in the process, allowing it to repeat the self-destruction over and over again as long as the barring effect lasts. This can be prolonged with Salvation of Time. All those spells can be cast on the Stag because it's a "steerable" summon which is not on autopilot and thus counts as "ally".

Eh? His is either exaggerated or you do something very wrong. With the right apporach you won't have many problems with stronghold raids at all. Every attack gets telegraphed long before so that you have the time to travel back and do the encounter yourself. Nearly all of them are extremely easy. If you kill all enemies you won't have any damage to your stronghold and get experience. If you always let your stronghold sort the attacks out on its own there will be damage. I guess you never travelled to your stronghold to aid in those fights? To keep the amount of raids in check: raise your security number. Once you get hirelings for your stronghold (via barracks) and some security upgrades (focus on those ones first) you won't experience many attacks anymore. Up to the point where they don't happen at all. Also you don't want to raise your prestige too soon. I can't remember if that attracks raiders - but the higher the prestige the more advanced the stronghold adventures become. If you level your prestige too fast you will skip a lot of the low level stronghold adventures which could bring you nice unique items. Best thing is to hire folks who have high positive security gain but a negative impact on your prestige (best example Korgrak the Ogre from Dyrford Crossing). TL;dr: do the fights yourself, favor the structures with the highest security gain, build barracks and enlist mercenaries with the highest security gain asap.

The difference is that a Tactician can become brilliant at lvl1 while a Cipher has to level a lot before he can even think about casting Ancestor's Memory (which is also expensive, so you need yo collect some focus first). My Tactician/Barb would always bring Whispers of the Endless Paths with him. Not only is WotEP + Clear Out pretty bonkers in general, but Mule Kick in an AoE gets you back a multiple points of discipline (if you interrupt several enemies with one strike) but also flanks (via disoriented) several enemies so it's rel. easy to become brilliant even without a fellow Cipher or Wizard. Morning Star is one of the best weapon choices for a Brute. Since it can lower fortitude by 25 points and lots of the attack abilites of a brute target fortitude (Knockdown/Mule Kick, Clear Out e.g.) also see Brute Force. If you don't like to switch weapons around a lot then Devoted/Barb with Morningstar is indeed a good choice. Also because of solid base PEN (then even better with Devoted, may even get pushed further with a Berserker) and dual damage type. My preferred method to remove Berserker's confusion is Devil of Caroc's Breastplate. It's a great piece of armor per se. But you can also simply eat a luminous lobster or similar food while resting which would make you immune until you rest again. Or use some Svef.

Certain bashing shields - e.g. Magran's Blessing - don't necessarily need an upgrade for dmg and PEN and ACC - if it has other upgrades that make its use worthwhile. In this case the -3 benefical effect debuff. It kind of makes sense that if you reinforce a medium heater shield with "quality" that it doesn't automatically becomes a better bashing weapon. So... providing fitting and benefical enchantments (or buffing the existing ones) for each bashing shield could make them worthwhile without doing a rel. "boring" blanket-buff for all of them. Afaik there are only 3 bashing shields anyway, right? And Tuotilo's Plam seems to be fine while Magran's Blessing is maybe more a "utility bashing" than dps bashing. That leaves Best Defense: needs better PEN enchantment - or additional PEN enchantment that comes after the first one. needs WAY better dmg boost - or additional dmg (maybe even a lash) enchantment that comes after the first one