Khrysophylax

There aren't really atheists in this game, just people (led by Iovara's philosophy) that don't consider manufactured entities, which are little more than very powerful Shades, as things worth worshipping. Iovara's whole point is that the existence of the pantheon stifles both individual freedom of thought and any meaningful search for real gods in the universe. If you want to ascribe a name to them, call them misotheists, people who are against the gods.

Additionally, the gods themselves were soul-forged using (at the low order) thousands of sacrificial Engwithan souls. It's something of an interesting question whether the death of one would cause it to splinter back into its many constituent parts, or if (having been fused and held together for so many thousands of years) it was now only one gigantic soul which would have then gone back into the Wheel. Very interesting ideas, indeed.

I, too, was a bit puzzled that none of the other gods even mentioned Eothas in Teir Evron. Seems a bit suspicious. But then again, Magran's behavior when you interact with her via Galawain is pretty shifty and duplicitous throughout. She should definitely be the next deity on the chopping block, IMO.

I think what she actually said was that "the door [presumably wood] was thin, and the room was stone." I.e. there was a very noticeable echo chamber effect in the room, so much so she heard some of what they were saying outside.

One little problem with this: the Wheel actually predates the existence of the (artificial) gods the Engwithans created. IIRC, Iovara states that the Engwithans searched for generations in the hopes of finding the creators of the universe, but only found the Wheel (which they presumably already knew about) and empty silence. That's not to say the gods can't interact with the Wheel, however. Berath may in fact have seized some measure of control over it, given his portfolio, or he's just a charlatan pretending to be in control of a machine beyond his understanding.

Another possibility is that it didn't have to do with the big secret, per se, but merely that Magran felt Eothas had 'crossed a line' in incarnating himself and in making war (which is her portfolio). She 'overreacted' a little and ended up killing Eothas, which nearly blew their cover, then tried to cover up her mistake by killing the 12 priests who worked on the Godhammer. It's remarkably petty if true, but then again we don't really have a very glowing report of Magran's character, either.

Zohar makes an excellent point, and his post is probably as close as we can get to a sort of fan-concensus. Considering that Eothas hasn't been answering his own faithful for 15 years, and that his symbol isn't even present in Teir Evron while Woedica's is, it seems likely that he was indeed fully destroyed by the Godhammer bomb. Which makes sense, when you get a little further into the game and find out some interesting truths about the pantheon. It's just a real shame, though, because he's by far my favorite of the Eoran deities.

I'm pretty sure Thaos was just that far gone. You won't have to go very far to find humans in real history who were willing to commit horrific atrocities in the perpetuation of a lie. When you go that far down the rabbit hole, and pursue something so single-mindedly for at least 2,000 years, your psychology literally does not have any room for doubt, self-reflection, or logical consistency. I'm sure watching/helping his fellow Engwithans commit mass-suicide to create the gods they so desperately wanted really screwed him up psychologically, too. In that regard, Thaos is well-written as a supremely broken man. Very much a "Utopia Justifies The Means" villain.

You mean post-1.03? That's what I was talking about earlier. I just beat him on Saturday, and I had to cheat in order to do so, because his Deflection was so sky-high nothing could hit him and he effortlessly wiped my party over and over.

IIRC, the plan was already in motion at this point and the first Hollowborn appeared almost immediately after Waidwen's death, if not before the end of the Saint's War. There's a number of us who speculate that the Saint's War was caused because Eothas found out about Thaos' plans to restore Woedica in the first place. Whether or not he knew (or if he knew, cared) that he was a construct is irrelevant; if you consider that Woedica and Eothas have diametrically opposing portfolios and personalities the Saint's War suddenly makes a lot of sense. Why would the all-around nicest of the artificial Eoran pantheon suddenly act so wildly out of character and go berserk? Well, the prospect of the whole world being subjugated under the extreme Lawful Evil tyranny of Woedica might definitely explain it. Sure, it could've just been Waidwen's megalomania, but what are the odds Eothas just happened to appear next door to and intervened in the region housing the Engwithan soul-machines that would soon be siphoning souls away to empower Woedica? Even St. Waidwen's seemingly out-of-character actions, such as persecuting the other faiths, suddenly make sense... if one considers the secret Magran-Woedica alliance.

It also explains the seemingly out-of-character (for Eothas) behavior on St. Waidwen's part, such as persecuting the other faiths when he's supposed to be a Neutral Good good of hope and light. I've no doubt being possessed by a god turned Waidwen into a gibbering megalomaniac, of course, but if Eothas really was trying to stop Thaos' plans, it makes sense to attack the other gods for being part of 'the system' as well.

I think what god you decided to favor might indeed have some impact on what happens to animacy, but it might also have to do with the faction you sided with in Defiance Bay. Personally, I got "stuck" with the Dozens (like many others on this board) as I didn't realize that accepting their second quest would lock me out of progression with the other factions. Although I tried my best to present a reasoned defense of animancy in the hearing, I suspect the Dozens being on top largely influenced the outcome after the Duc's assassination. In my ending slides, the Dozens ended up ruling Defiance Bay with grim authority, driving out the Crucible Knights. Animancers fled into the wilderness. Also, in my case, Sagani completed her quest and went home to live a long life before dying surrounded by multiple generations of family. I got the same ending with Grieving Mother as the OP, despite never finishing her quest. And yes, looks like we're seeing a lot of variance in Eder's outcomes. I wonder what's necessary for Aloth to decide to dismantle the Leaden Key, as opposed to carrying on Thaos' work? And how exactly do we disable the machine in Heritage Hill?

Good point. Very well, what's the best way to 'debuff' his Deflection, then, so you can actually disable him? I'm not too used to debuffing since PoE in general places a considerably de-emphasized role on buffs and debuffs, especially compared to D&D and the old IE games. Wizards and clerics in this game generally go down easy and you don't even need to worry about stripping their defenses, as they generally have none to speak of. I pretty much ignored scrolls throughout my game as well, as I had no problems dealing with 90% of what the game threw at me.

I don't believe this interpretation of events is mentioned much in the game, but a lot of us fans speculate that Eothas got wind of Thaos' plans to feed Woedica thousands of mortal souls so she could usurp the pantheon once again. It's based on a line of dialogue you -might- get with Durance when you reveal to him that Magran conspired with Woedica and meant to kill him. Given that Eothas and Woedica have pretty much diametrically opposing 'portfolios' (in D&D terms), it's not difficult to see why he felt motivated to act. So he crossed a line, incarnated himself in the form of St. Waidwen, and (the theory goes) led the invasion of the Dyrwood intending to physically dismantle the machines Thaos was using for his plans. This led Magran and the other gods to overreact and cross a line themselves, leading up to the Godhammer (in which Magran conspired with Woedica to kill Eothas) and another minor crisis, revealing that the gods could be killed. This was bad news, but it actually ended up working quite well for Thaos, as he was able to (eventually) pin the blame for the Hollowborn epidemic squarely on animancy and further advance his plans. Unfortunately, the game doesn't give us a lot of hope that Eothas is still alive. Whereas Woedica can definitely be seen 'on the roads' at the end of the game, I'm pretty sure Eothas is gone for good. Too bad, as I quite liked the guy, and if this interpretation is correct, he went out trying to be a Big Damn Hero.

I originally posted this in another topic, but I'll just repost it here: For some reason I kept thinking that the Endless Maze was something akin to 'optional content' I could do whenever I wanted, and even though I hit level 12 right before facing down Thaos I just never bothered to go back and do it. So this meant Kana Rua had a fairly dismal ending where he goes home broken-hearted and solemn. For that reason (and probably because I didn't have enough time to buy *every* single keep upgrade) I got a bad ending slide for the stronghold, where it 'fell back into disrepair' despite me sinking thousands of gold into it. Was a little annoyed at that, and with the stronghold mechanic in general, which is surprisingly inferior to the one back in NWN2. Likewise, my companions were a mixed bag: while I tried to get everyone the happy endings I thought they deserved, I wasn't entirely successful in large part because there were some characters I just never used. For example, Aloth got benched fairly early in my game since I was already a Wizard, and while I did finish his personal quest and talked with him about being with the Leaden Key, I apparently didn't talk to him enough to dissuade him from taking up Thaos' robes after the end and continuing the Leaden Key's work. Likewise, despite really liking her character I just never bothered to keep Grieving Mother around, so I never go to see the end of her personal quest. Pallegina's story ended in sadness and exile because I urged her to do the right thing, and sabotaged the trade agreements. At least I got happy endings for Eder, Sagani, Hiravias, and Greiving Mother (despite not finishing her quest). Durance had an arguably happy ending in that he didn't kill himself and swore vengeance against Magran and Woedica, so I guess that's something. Eder went on to become mayor of Dyrford and turned it into an echo of what Gilded Vale used to be in his younger years. Also, I didn't realize you could actually deactivate the Engwithan tower in Heritage Hill and got another depressing ending slide... and I foolishly reneged on my pact with Rymrgand (I was expecting him to punish me, not the innocents of the Dyrwood). So originally, I went against Rymrgand and instead scattered the souls to places unknown, as Wael wanted. So in retaliation Rymrgand punished the Dyrwood with the worst winter in history and Ondra wreaked economic havoc by sinking many ships sailing to and from the country. What complete jerks. Later, I reloaded to a save made just before activating the machine and decided to go along with Rymrgand's plan, so that led to a happier ending for the Dyrwood at least. Hits me right in the feels, Obsidian! You definitely subverted my expectations there. Sometimes trying to do the right thing doesn't always end well.

That's the thing, I DID cast Gaze of the Adragon. Twice. In a row. It did absolutely nothing. Personally, I found this battle outright impossible and had to cheat via the console to get through it. For one thing, Thaos seems completely immune to stun and paralysis. I don't know what everyone else is talking about, but I cast Gaze of the Adragon on him twice consecutively and it did zilch. Had no observable effect whatsoever. Likewise, Ninagauth's Bitter Mooring didn't actually freeze him and only did pitiful freeze damage, etc. The only thing that actually worked was, of course, Slicken, but given that this was post-1.03 nerf it didn't last very long.

I had a similar problem, though not as bad. For some reason I kept thinking that the Endless Maze was something akin to 'optional content' I could do whenever I wanted, and even though I hit level 12 right before facing down Thaos I just never bothered to go back and do it. So this meant Kana Rua had a fairly dismal ending where he goes home broken-hearted and solemn. For that reason (and probably because I didn't have enough time to buy *every* single keep upgrade) I got a bad ending slide for the stronghold, where it 'fell back into disrepair' despite me sinking thousands of gold into it. Was a little annoyed at that, and with the stronghold mechanic in general, which is surprisingly inferior to the one back in NWN2. Likewise, my companions were a mixed bag: while I tried to get everyone the happy endings I thought they deserved, I wasn't entirely successful in large part because there were some characters I just never used. For example, Aloth got benched fairly early in my game since I was already a Wizard, and while I did finish his personal quest and talked with him about being with the Leaden Key, I apparently didn't talk to him enough to dissuade him from taking up Thaos' robes after the end and continuing the Leaden Key's work. Is having him in the party the only way to stop him from doing so? The Thaos battle was hard enough (almost impossibly hard, given that he seemed to be immune to paralysis) without another squishy Wizard in the party. Likewise, despite really liking her character I just never bothered to keep Grieving Mother around, so I never go to see the end of her personal quest. And Pallegina's story ended in tragedy and exile because I urged her to do the right thing. At least I got happy endings for Eder, Sagani, Hiravias, and Greiving Mother (despite not finishing her quest). Durance had an arguably happy ending in that he didn't kill himself and swore vengeance against Magran and Woedica, so I guess that's something. Also, I didn't realize you could actually deactivate the Engwithan tower in Heritage Hill and got another depressing ending slide... and I foolishly reneged on my pact with Rymrgand (I was expecting him to punish me, not the innocents of the Dyrwood). Hits me right in the feels, Obsidian! You definitely subverted my expectations there. Sometimes trying to do the right thing doesn't always end well. But really, the storytelling, world-building and lore in Pillars has just been top-rate so far, exactly as I expected from the company that gave us New Vegas and Mask of the Betrayer. Act III and IV did feel a little rushed, I must say, but I have every hope we'll be seeing more in future expansions.

That's been my general experience as well. Druids start out very strong and remain viable throughout pretty much the entire game. Wizards, especially after the nerfs to Slicken and Chill Fog, have a VERY difficult start and only start getting good quite a bit later in the game, and most of that is pure CC--aside from the Gaseous Cloud and Circle of Death equivalents, you're well advised to stay away from 'nuking' spells with the class entirely. The Druid does just about everything better in that regard. Sure, their CC abilities aren't *as good* as the Wizard's, but they still have fairly decent CC options coupled with amazing AOE spells, healing, and the somewhat middling quality that is Shapeshifting. Honestly, they seem a lot more fun and balanced to play.

Me too, on that point. Fireball could use a bit of a buff--at the very least you hopefully won't have to cast it at point-blank range anymore. I guess that's something.

I'd say that's... a fair assessment. Druids are losing nothing in this upcoming patch and there soon isn't going to be much reason to choose a Wizard over a Druid (either as a PC class or a party member).

I think it's a little of column A, a little of column B. The devs didn't like how arcane spellcasters dominated BG2, so they set out right from the beginning to stop that train before it could get going. Then they saw widespread reports that Slicken was OP (and it was, indeed) so they decided that needed nerfing as well. To be honest, I can't argue with them that much--a 1st level spell shouldn't be dominating the entire game to that degree, especially after the 1st level spells become per-encounter at level 9. The problem is that right now the Druid will soon be doing literally everything better than the Wizard. Sure, the Wizard still has Confusion and the like, but it's not nearly as spammable as the Druid's very nice level 1 spells (which lost no utility in this upcoming patch). Sure, you can say that it doesn't matter as this is a party game, but my contention is there will soon be precious little reason to choose the Wizard either as your PC or as a party member (Aloth or hirelings) when the Cipher and Druid can do just about everything better.

I've posted about the Wizard balancing issue in a number of threads, and this is a poor 'balancing' decision, IMO. Yes, Slicken was OP, but the wise solution would have been to nerf it and then either buff some other spells or change some core features of the class to make it more enjoyable to play. Instead, Slicken and Chill Fog were straight up nerfed and the only thing Wizard players got in compensation was... increased spell ranges. Now Wizards will be even more excruciating to play at low levels and the payoff will be even worse at level 9. Meanwhile, the Druid is completely untouched. It still has amazing AOE foe-only damage spells, amazing CC spells, summoning spells, healing spells, and shapeshifting (though that may or may not be so amazing).

I feel that you have a point. In terms of options, AOE, crowd control, direct DPS, the Druid is flat out superior to the Wizard in every possible way. I refer to this post by Stun from another topic: The only thing Wizards have going for them is spamming some extremely cheesy spells, mainly Slicken, at higher levels, because that's really all you can do and because even the adra dragon apparently can't resist them. In D&D, this would be no problem--higher level enemies should save against these spells easily, forcing you to use other options. Meanwhile, the Druid's offensive AOE absolutely laughs at Fireball or Corrosive Cloud or any other direct damage spells you can use as a Wizard. Not to mention they get summons, healing, great CC, shapeshifting, and etc. The list just goes on.

It's spells per rest. You find as many grimoires as you defeat enemy Wizards (I think I have something like 5 extra ones right now), but they do not allow you to cast extra spells. In other words, a level 4 Wizard will always be able to cast exactly 4 level 1 spells no matter how many times you switch grimoires. Also, switching grimoires incurs a rather long cooldown during which you can't cast any spells at all. On the other hand, finding all of those grimoires does allow you to learn new spells from them (at the cost of 100 gold per spell level). Wow. The devs don't love wizards I guess. Oh well. Guess I'll stick with Divinity and Magicka. A cipher sounds like something from the Matrix, not fantasy, and I have no interest in that. A druid sounds like the only viable alternative, but I see they get spells per rest as well. And I'm not into the resting "mini-game" genre. I'm glad someone is keeping the D&D flame alive, I just hope they don't snuff it out by sticking to PnP spellcasting quite so religiously. I strongly suspect that several highly placed people at Obsidian were really put off by the fact that the Mage/Sorcerer was pretty much the "GG class" of BG2 and set out to nerf the power of Wizards and prevent that legacy from carrying over into PoE. As Stun says, CC isn't nearly as important by level 9 when the Druid is throwing around some amazing AOE damage spells. Trust me, I just got to level 9 on my Wizard and now spamming Slicken and Chill Fog is pretty much all I do. I'm still hoarding all the higher level spells and pretty much refusing to use them, except now I have a very tiny bit more I can do in most battles aside from auto-attack. Meanwhile, Hivervias is just becoming a god of destruction. (And I'm still wearing Fine Robes; are there any good unique robes around?)

The issue I, and a lot of others, are having is rather that Druids and Ciphers are completely superior to Wizards in just about every possible way. Sure, you can have fun playing a Wizard, but I bet you could have more fun playing a Druid, and that needs addressing, IMO. Druids get some amazing AOE and direct-damage spells, while the 'ultimate' tools in the Wizard's repertoire (Fireball) are pretty much completely anemic by comparison. Yes, crowd control and all that, but Druids get plenty of that too (and much more varieties of it, plus healing/regeneration and shapeshifting). Also, I may go against the D&D grain here but I see no fundamental problem with trying to use (and enjoy) the Wizard as a nuker. Not to mention the fact that most Wizard spells are fairly short ranged. Just to cast the underwhelming Fireball you practically have to get right into something's face. Hivervias' (sp?) awesome lighting and Sunstrike spells have pulled me out of the fire on numerous occasions thus far; I can't say that spamming Slicken has been nearly as satisfying. Conceptually, it just doesn't make sense that the Druid should be the ultimate blaster in the game, IMO.