Jediphile

Thanks. See, I can write one-word posts... Oh damn!!

We don't. Well, to be fair, *I* don't, or at least I don't remember the exact phrases. But if I need to know what was said specifically, I just go through the dialog.tlk file and use the search function... The biggest problem is that it doesn't tell you who said the sentences (or whether they're cut content), but I can usually remember from the game, or else it can be concluded from context.

"Kumus will not be returning to the Mandalorian camp... at least not all of him..." Nasty

Not so long, actually - 10 minutes or so? You'll note that much of it is actually dialogue from the game, which I could cut and paste. That doesn't take long to do. And besides, once I get going, I can write very long and extensive sentences. Not always a good thing, but I've learned to cut them into smaller sentences, though that just makes my posts even longer... There are doubtlessly those who type faster than I do, but my rate is pretty decent too, so that gets a lot out there pretty quick... Yes, my bad - I know... :">

Maybe saying his 'dark side' is the wrong term... I look more at like Nihilus is a manifestation of the Exile's rejection of darkness within that he defied on Malachor V. He may or may not have been DS in K2 depdending on player choice, but that doesn't change the fact that he did reject the darkness within a decade earlier. If you're interested in the theory, go back a few pages in topic and read my discussion about it when Metadigital. No, I wouldn't, but then I also don't think that will happen. I think Revan will turn to the dark side because that's the sort of sacrifice Kreia credits him with in K2, and I think the Exile will too, because the relationship I suspect he has with Nihilus. I do not think, however, that they will be the boss villains of K3 or that they will kill each other. Whether either or both of the die, I really don't know, but I hope not. But naturally that's colored by what I hope is in K3, and which I described in my plot suggestions on the K3 topic.

I think we will see a Revan turned to the dark side again. The Exile will seek him out and confront him, and Revan will then use the truth of what happened on Malachor V to corrupt the Exile and turn him to the dark side as well. Then Exile will put on the mask that Visas gave him and Nihilus will be reborn.

Where? You say you do, but you don't point to anything in the game, and all you've given is a link to a summary of Revan's life, which can be called into question simply on the basis of being written by a third party that does not support their interpretatations with references to the original source. If you want to blindly accept that, then that's fine for you, but I'll stick to what I actually see in the game, thank you. And again, no: GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." It helps to read what others write in the discussion, particularly when I've already gone through the trouble of putting the important bit in bold. I don't think it defies logic, but you're right that we don't actually know that he did. We don't know the opposite either, though, and if canon says so, I'd like to see where. One reason why I call the link you mention into question is that the timeline it mentions for Revan's fall (or sacrifice) does not make sense to me, since it claims that Revan fall when he found the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. Since we know that Revan arrived late to that battle and it was the final battle of the Mandalorian Wars, this would have happened just after the Mandalorian Wars ended at the earliest. And that doesn't make sense to me, since it would mean that Revan had not yet fallen when he sent the jedi and Republic soldiers that were not completely loyal to him to die on Malachor V. HK-47: "Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic." Now, given that Revan used Malachor V to either convert the jedi to become fanatically devoted to him or else to kill them, it naturally follows that he would already have fallen to that dark side at that point - what he did here is really evil! But according to the link you gave, he didn't fall until later when he had time to explore Malachor V, and that doesn't seem to add up to me. Now look at what Kreia tells us. Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil. I do not believe the Jedi Council changed Revan, as they claimed. They merely stripped away the surface, and allowed the true self to emerge again - someone who was willing to wage war to save others." The part in bold clearly suggests that Revan's choice was a conscious one. We could argue that it's just Kreia's interpretation and that it is colored by her own bias, but I don't think she would have held onto this belief if the facts had contradicted her opinion, and that suggests that Revan's fall - or sacrifice - came early enough to support her view. Now look at something else she says. Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark.Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did." Now the first part in bold in this quote only makes sense if it speaks to Revan's motives *before* he fell to the dark side. It also explains why he left military installations and so intact throughout his reign as the dark lord - he knew the true Sith were out there. And for Kreia's comments about Revan never falling to make sense, he would have had to have this knowledge of the threat of the true Sith before he fell or sacrificed himself to the dark side, or else the whole idea of a sacrifice falls apart. It only makes sense if Revan can possibly be interpreted to have willing embraced the dark side and converted the jedi with him all for the greater good of being able to stand against the true Sith later. And the last bold-faced part I quote above tells us, that Revan knew war, which supports the idea that his choices were strategic and farsighted all along. He would have brought down the democratic Republic, yes, but not destroy it - democracy is an ideal, and that you cannot ever destroy. It may even be that Revan sacrificed himself, became the dark lord, dooming the Republic, just so that it's planets could survive the next war with the true Sith and then overthrow Revan himself and finally restore the Republic's democracy. Yes, those are a lot of factors that need to fall into place, but if the threat Revan saw was the true fall of the Republic, then he might have embraced that fickle hope simply on the basis that it was it was the only way he saw for the Republic to survive the true Sith in the long run. GOTO, HK-47 and Kreia all mirror similar theories about Revan's motives. You can call them incorrect, sure, but so far they're all we have to base our speculation on, and therefore it's still better than nothing. Besides, GOTO's analysis is compelling because it does explain several things and fits with what we know of Revan's actions. Millions would have died if Revan had not gone to war, and he and Malak would never have been defiant if the masters hadn't decided to basically just let the Mandalorians do whatever they wanted on the outer rim. It is said many times throughout both games that the Republic likely would have fallen had it not been for Revan and Malak, and the postulate is hardly ever refuted even by the masters. The masters just thought they could wait forever until the true threat revealed itself, but while they were right about the true threat, they were wrong about the significance of the more immediate danger - even jedi cannot fight wars without support of the military, and even if the Republic had survived the Mandalorian Wars without jedi interference - and that's a pretty big if - it would still have shattered its military infrastructure. That was the genius of the manipulation of the true Sith - the jedi could either act too soon and risk falling to the dark side by helping the Republic fight the Mandalorians, or they could sit back and let the Mandalorians and the Republic shatter each other until the Republic was so weak that it couldn't defend itself when the true Sith came. For the true Sith this is a win/win situation. And note that the jedi order was already failing at the time, since many jedi had already died in Exar Kun's Sith War only a few decades before. The only one that seems to have understood all this is Revan (and perhaps Kreia). But the masters did not, or else they did not have the stomach to risk anything in war. Revan knew that risks were unavoidable in war, however, and so he risked what was needed. He had to risk more because the masters were indecisive. Yes, but you cannot blame Revan for the situation with the Exile - what happened there was completely unprecedented - it was a totally new risk wholly unrelated to the threat of Revan or the true Sith. Indeed, it was a threat to them too, though I doubt Revan was aware of it. The blame can just as well said to be the council's since they forced the issue by refusing to go to war. Of course there are those jedi who will not let millions die on the outer rim - protecting the weak and fighting evil is what the jedi do. To suddenly tell them they can't is to deny who they are.

I've been wondering this, because it seems like something that would be obvious. IIRC the Exile never became a Jedi knight - he (or she) never advanced beyond the rank of padawan before he joined the crusade of Revan and Malak. It seems like something that the Exile might have mentioned at some point, and I find it particularly odd that it doesn't seem to come up in the conversations with the Disciple, since he knew of your backstory, yet I just don't recall it ever being mentioned. Does anybody recall a part of the game where this is revealed?

Fair enough, but I don't get that impression from the source material that I have quoted. But while I have tried to use canon material as evidence to support my position, you have merely stated that Revan did not know at that time and then expected me to accept that. I might, but you'll have to do better than just claim it without documenting your position. Otherwise it's just opinion against opinion. Or opinion against conclusion based on the sources, since I have actually founded my position on what the game tells us. I still have no idea what you have founded your position on. Uhm... If the jedi had acted, Revan would not have had to defy them... He did because they refused to act - they had ample opportunity to act. They just chose to wait and let millions die in the outer rim instead. True, but he would still have saved the people, and I do not find it impossible that he chose that knowing that he, in time, would also be overthrow, so that the Republic could live again. If the true Sith had won, however, the Republic would have stayed dead. That's what Kreia talks about when she says that the difference between a fall and a sacrifice can be difficult to see. Once again... GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." I don't know why you continue to ignore this quote by GOTO, particularly the part I've put in bold, since it more than clearly suggests that Revan did not merely seek conquest, but no matter - I shall continue to repeat it for as long as you continue to ignore it.

And how would Atris know that name? Kreia didn't become Darth Traya until either during or after the Mandalorian Wars, and she was exiled for her teachings at the beginning of it. Since she has to suffer "a betrayal of the heart" to become Darth Traya, she cannot have been that person when the jedi exiled, and if her real name is not Kreia, then what name did they know her by? And before anyone says that Atris would have know the name or title of Darth Traya, consider the dialogue they have when the two meet on Telos: Atris: "Who is there?" Kreia: "Who I am is not the question." Atris: "I am Atris, Jedi Master... the last historian of the Jedi... the last of the Jedi. Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you. Atris: "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith. Kreia: "'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. Kreia: "But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn." Now, why is Kreia telling Atris all this? If Atris already knows Darth Traya, then it shouldn't be necessary to her that there is a Darth Traya, nor what it means to hold that title. Besides, I consider the comment about how "there must always be a Darth Traya" to mean that it is more a title that Kreia has assumed than a name she had taken or been given. There is also the matter that in the content that was cut, the position of Darth Traya was to befall either Kreia or Atris depending on your choices in the game - in the soundfiles of the cut content where the Exile's companions confront Darth Traya, the dialogue by Traya may be found and heard in two alternate versions - one where Traya is Kreia and one where Traya is Atris. Anyone wanting to hear this for themselves should check the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA\ folder and listen to some of the soundfiles there. So given that the identity of Traya was optional - either Kreia or Atris - that also doesn't suggest that Traya is a "real" name as much as a title to me.

Why? Worked fairly well in the Fallout games, and those are considered among the best CRPGs ever made... Lots of PnP RPGs have critical hit rules that allow dismemberment. One of those is the Star Wars d20 RPG, btw. The greatest problem with such rules is usually that it takes forever to roll dice and sort of the results, which is something that would actually be done instantly in a computer game... The greatest argument against something like that is really how it would affect the demographics "

The jedi order, as we've seen in KotOR up till now, is no more. I believe the future order will be founded on people like Revan, Bastila, and the Exile. And Jolee, if he still lives.

I've killed all three of them, so it is possible... But, yes, they're tough cookies.

The comment wasn't made in reference to the jedi in general, but rather to their (ab)use of Revan. There might have been extenuating circumstances for the manipulation of Revan, but that still doesn't absolve them from the moral responsibility, and they don't exactly demonstrate much regret or sorrow on the matter - did any of them ever apologize to Revan for doing what they did? I certainly didn't hear it... And if they don't accept the ethical responsibility, then how can they claim to hold the moral high ground?

I'm beginning to think that we're not talking about the same thing when we say "dangerous". The Mandalorians weren't as powerful as Revan was, no, but they were more destructive. Like Malak they would have destroyed whatever was necessary to win without consideration for the future. Revan wouldn't, though, because he knew the war with the true Sith was coming, and he prepared for the next war even as he fought the current. Granted, it might not have been the Republic he would have defended so much as his own empire that he would have then turned the Republic into, but the planets of the Republic would have survived. GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." Necessary evil is still evil. Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing." That's true, but indecision often equals death. Revan felt that by the time the masters might act, too many worlds would have been lost to the Mandalorians to stop them without losing so much of the Republic that it would then be doomed once the true Sith made their move. Who was right? You could claim that either or both were, but then hindsight is always 20-20... Oh, I'm not saying that they weren't justified in their decision to some extent. Besides, when you look at the matter, you have to acknowledge that you, as the player, will not see the matter objectively, since you're the one being sacrificed for the greater good. What bugs me in both cases is that the masters just make the decision without even allowing me (the player - Revan in K1, Exile in K2) a chance to even voice my opinion on the matter - even the condemned should get a chance to make his case, and I might even have agreed to accept their judgment, if they could persuade that it was necessary. The problem is that they didn't even give me that much - their ruling was a drumhead trial, the verdict final with no chances for appeal or to make even a statement. I can accept that they had to sacrifice one person for the greater good, but that line of thinking is very slippery ground morally and ethically. If you can sacrifice one person on that basis, then can you sacrifce two? Or as Captain Picard would say on Star Trek: "How many does it take before it becomes wrong?" Yes, I can accept that the decision, but I cannot accept the way it was reached with cold detachment and completely without any sort of sympathy or empathy for the person being sacrificed. If the masters will make the decision, then they must accept the responsibility for it as well, and they don't look like the do that to me.

Because your fight is with Revan, not yourself. The Exile is - as I see it - there to show that he will fall to the dark side and stand by Revan in the future. But they will also fight, and I suspect that Revan will turn the Exile to the dark side by making him see some things about himself.

Concerning age: First of all, Kreia's age is in doubt to begin with. Is she 70? We really don't know... But even if she looks to be 70... Option 1: We really don't know if 50-year old woman can bear children in the KotOR age, but given the technological and medical advances compared to the real world today, it doesn't seem impossible to me. Also, we never learn Yusanis' age IIRC, and we know that he had several other daughters before Brianna... Option 2: Atton: "I mean, how old do you think she is? {Shakes head}She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that." About timing: Yes, 20 years is a decade before the Mandalorian Wars, but there is no question that Handmaiden was born that long ago, so I really don't see what your point...

Well, of course it says that - we're never told that Kae and Kreia are the same, so naturally they have to approach it that way, unless they're going to support conjecture about them being the same person. Here we discuss details of the game itself, however, and so we're much closer to the original subject matter than they are on a site, where they try to give a mroe broad description. I mean, answers.com or wikipedia merely give an summary of the characters, whereas we can look at the matter in far more detail and even speculate about actual dialogue from the game to reach new conclusions, since we all know the game and its characters already.

Agreed, but I think we might still see that in K3. The Exile's decision on Malachor V and his separation from the Force is a significant event that I think will be vital to how they whole KotOR trilogy will turn out, so we might see a flashback sequence of it if the Exile comes to terms with what happened on Malachor V and it has the significance that I think it does. Well, I can hope, can't I? :cool:

I see the cave experiences as visions of the Exiles life - past, present, and future. First we see Malak trying to recruit young jedi to stand with him and Revan - clearly the past. Then we have the Exile commanded troops against the enemy during the Mandalorian Wars - also clearly the past. Then we have a scene where Atton, Bao-Dur, and T3 confront Kreia for being a dark jedi - clearly the present. And finally we have a scene, where the Exile confronts a DS Revan (even if you set Revan to LS), and who has a DS Exile standing next to him when you enter (even if you're LS). Then you have to fight Revan. To me, this looks like the future, and so points to events of K3.

Thanks. I think... :D

Yes, I agree. It was the epitome of hypocrisy when they say to the Exile during his trial: "You refuse to hear us. You have shut us out, and so have shut yourself to the galaxy." The irony is bitter, because that is exactly what they do themselves - they have shut him out and refuse to listen, and in so doing, they have closed themselves to the truth. And the poor fools just don't get it.

I remember this quote from Kreia too. The problem with this theory is that the corrupted Revan was way more dangerous than the Mandalorians were. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd agree with that, except Revan wasn't as destructive as the Mandalorians were. He knew that the true Sith would eventually come, and so he allowed the Republic's military infrastructure to exist. There are several comments on this. Here is one. GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." So while Revan would have conquered the Republic, he would also have prepared it for the next war against the true Sith. How much or how little he was corrupted by the dark side is immaterial, since he would have armed the Republic in time either way - either to save the Republic or else to protect his own empire. The jedi actually messed up that plan, since their interference gave Malak a chance to replace Revan, and unlike him, Malak did not care how much of the Republic he destroyed, as GOTO mentions in the above. Yet using him casually because it's convenient is a mark of the Sith, not the jedi. They argue redemption, but they are not willing to put it to the test, and they can't even be bothered to ask his companions if he has changed. The fact that they don't suggests that they are more concerned with his disobidience than with his motives for defying them, which speaks volumes about their own arrogance. I'd agree that it's a snap decision, but not irrational. The Exile could wound the force. What if he could kill it outright? What would the consequence of that be? They don't know and, yes, they fear that, but it's not irrational - they are the jedi masters, and if they don't know, then chances are that nobody does. Since life and the force itself are tied, maybe he could kill all life in the galaxy. If that's the case, then letting him keep his power is a risk that they cannot allow to exist - you don't stand around wondering if that grenade is about to go off - you throw it away before it explodes in your face! The problem is that the Exile represented a much greater and far more immediate threat than the Sith did. Sure, the Sith might hunt the masters down and kill the jedi, but if the Exile can kill all life everywhere, then he is a much greater threat. Once they deal with him, they can continue to worry about the Sith. Again, I'm not saying I agree with their decision, just that this is what they thought.

Don't remind me - I don't want to cry myself to sleep... :D

Actually if anything, I'd rather he wrote. His overall ideas aren't bad, he just needs someone to flesh them out and then needs someone to actually implement them into movie and make sure the actors see that same vision, something Georgie seems to struggle with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Write the overall story? - okay. Write actual events and dialogue? No thanks. ROTS hangs together fine plotwise, but the whole "Anakin did it all for love" theme grows a bit thin, and the dialogue is really uninspiring most of the time. "NOOOOOO" was good, but it's not much of a line... About the only really good line in ROTS was "So this is how liberty ends - with thunderous applause..." - that was very moving. And I *hate* wookiees doing Tarzan-yells :angry: It was bad enough in ROTJ, so there really is no reason to repeat it. Indeed, the repetition is bad. "This is where the fun begins", "I have a bad feeling about this", and so forth. I suppose it's meant to draw on the spirit from the earlier films, but to me it just looks unoriginal and boring...