Jediphile

And how would Atris know that name? Kreia didn't become Darth Traya until either during or after the Mandalorian Wars, and she was exiled for her teachings at the beginning of it. Since she has to suffer "a betrayal of the heart" to become Darth Traya, she cannot have been that person when the jedi exiled, and if her real name is not Kreia, then what name did they know her by? And before anyone says that Atris would have know the name or title of Darth Traya, consider the dialogue they have when the two meet on Telos: Atris: "Who is there?" Kreia: "Who I am is not the question." Atris: "I am Atris, Jedi Master... the last historian of the Jedi... the last of the Jedi. Kreia: "Those are titles, words you cling to as the darkness falls around you. Atris: "You are that which has attacked the Jedi... you are Sith. Kreia: "'Sith' is a title, yes, but like you, the title is not who I am. It is not what I believe.For you... it is different. Know that there was once a Darth Traya. And that she cast aside that role, was exiled, and found a new purpose. Kreia: "But there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal. Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn." Now, why is Kreia telling Atris all this? If Atris already knows Darth Traya, then it shouldn't be necessary to her that there is a Darth Traya, nor what it means to hold that title. Besides, I consider the comment about how "there must always be a Darth Traya" to mean that it is more a title that Kreia has assumed than a name she had taken or been given. There is also the matter that in the content that was cut, the position of Darth Traya was to befall either Kreia or Atris depending on your choices in the game - in the soundfiles of the cut content where the Exile's companions confront Darth Traya, the dialogue by Traya may be found and heard in two alternate versions - one where Traya is Kreia and one where Traya is Atris. Anyone wanting to hear this for themselves should check the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA\ folder and listen to some of the soundfiles there. So given that the identity of Traya was optional - either Kreia or Atris - that also doesn't suggest that Traya is a "real" name as much as a title to me.

Why? Worked fairly well in the Fallout games, and those are considered among the best CRPGs ever made... Lots of PnP RPGs have critical hit rules that allow dismemberment. One of those is the Star Wars d20 RPG, btw. The greatest problem with such rules is usually that it takes forever to roll dice and sort of the results, which is something that would actually be done instantly in a computer game... The greatest argument against something like that is really how it would affect the demographics "

The jedi order, as we've seen in KotOR up till now, is no more. I believe the future order will be founded on people like Revan, Bastila, and the Exile. And Jolee, if he still lives.

I've killed all three of them, so it is possible... But, yes, they're tough cookies.

The comment wasn't made in reference to the jedi in general, but rather to their (ab)use of Revan. There might have been extenuating circumstances for the manipulation of Revan, but that still doesn't absolve them from the moral responsibility, and they don't exactly demonstrate much regret or sorrow on the matter - did any of them ever apologize to Revan for doing what they did? I certainly didn't hear it... And if they don't accept the ethical responsibility, then how can they claim to hold the moral high ground?

I'm beginning to think that we're not talking about the same thing when we say "dangerous". The Mandalorians weren't as powerful as Revan was, no, but they were more destructive. Like Malak they would have destroyed whatever was necessary to win without consideration for the future. Revan wouldn't, though, because he knew the war with the true Sith was coming, and he prepared for the next war even as he fought the current. Granted, it might not have been the Republic he would have defended so much as his own empire that he would have then turned the Republic into, but the planets of the Republic would have survived. GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." Necessary evil is still evil. Disciple: "Many Jedi defied the Order during the Mandalorian Wars - and it paved the way for the Jedi Civil War.There is no blame - all must accept. But at its core, one must wonder if it was the failure of the Jedi teachings... or the teachers themselves. Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing." That's true, but indecision often equals death. Revan felt that by the time the masters might act, too many worlds would have been lost to the Mandalorians to stop them without losing so much of the Republic that it would then be doomed once the true Sith made their move. Who was right? You could claim that either or both were, but then hindsight is always 20-20... Oh, I'm not saying that they weren't justified in their decision to some extent. Besides, when you look at the matter, you have to acknowledge that you, as the player, will not see the matter objectively, since you're the one being sacrificed for the greater good. What bugs me in both cases is that the masters just make the decision without even allowing me (the player - Revan in K1, Exile in K2) a chance to even voice my opinion on the matter - even the condemned should get a chance to make his case, and I might even have agreed to accept their judgment, if they could persuade that it was necessary. The problem is that they didn't even give me that much - their ruling was a drumhead trial, the verdict final with no chances for appeal or to make even a statement. I can accept that they had to sacrifice one person for the greater good, but that line of thinking is very slippery ground morally and ethically. If you can sacrifice one person on that basis, then can you sacrifce two? Or as Captain Picard would say on Star Trek: "How many does it take before it becomes wrong?" Yes, I can accept that the decision, but I cannot accept the way it was reached with cold detachment and completely without any sort of sympathy or empathy for the person being sacrificed. If the masters will make the decision, then they must accept the responsibility for it as well, and they don't look like the do that to me.

Because your fight is with Revan, not yourself. The Exile is - as I see it - there to show that he will fall to the dark side and stand by Revan in the future. But they will also fight, and I suspect that Revan will turn the Exile to the dark side by making him see some things about himself.

Concerning age: First of all, Kreia's age is in doubt to begin with. Is she 70? We really don't know... But even if she looks to be 70... Option 1: We really don't know if 50-year old woman can bear children in the KotOR age, but given the technological and medical advances compared to the real world today, it doesn't seem impossible to me. Also, we never learn Yusanis' age IIRC, and we know that he had several other daughters before Brianna... Option 2: Atton: "I mean, how old do you think she is? {Shakes head}She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that." About timing: Yes, 20 years is a decade before the Mandalorian Wars, but there is no question that Handmaiden was born that long ago, so I really don't see what your point...

Well, of course it says that - we're never told that Kae and Kreia are the same, so naturally they have to approach it that way, unless they're going to support conjecture about them being the same person. Here we discuss details of the game itself, however, and so we're much closer to the original subject matter than they are on a site, where they try to give a mroe broad description. I mean, answers.com or wikipedia merely give an summary of the characters, whereas we can look at the matter in far more detail and even speculate about actual dialogue from the game to reach new conclusions, since we all know the game and its characters already.

Agreed, but I think we might still see that in K3. The Exile's decision on Malachor V and his separation from the Force is a significant event that I think will be vital to how they whole KotOR trilogy will turn out, so we might see a flashback sequence of it if the Exile comes to terms with what happened on Malachor V and it has the significance that I think it does. Well, I can hope, can't I? :cool:

I see the cave experiences as visions of the Exiles life - past, present, and future. First we see Malak trying to recruit young jedi to stand with him and Revan - clearly the past. Then we have the Exile commanded troops against the enemy during the Mandalorian Wars - also clearly the past. Then we have a scene where Atton, Bao-Dur, and T3 confront Kreia for being a dark jedi - clearly the present. And finally we have a scene, where the Exile confronts a DS Revan (even if you set Revan to LS), and who has a DS Exile standing next to him when you enter (even if you're LS). Then you have to fight Revan. To me, this looks like the future, and so points to events of K3.

Thanks. I think... :D

Yes, I agree. It was the epitome of hypocrisy when they say to the Exile during his trial: "You refuse to hear us. You have shut us out, and so have shut yourself to the galaxy." The irony is bitter, because that is exactly what they do themselves - they have shut him out and refuse to listen, and in so doing, they have closed themselves to the truth. And the poor fools just don't get it.

I remember this quote from Kreia too. The problem with this theory is that the corrupted Revan was way more dangerous than the Mandalorians were. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd agree with that, except Revan wasn't as destructive as the Mandalorians were. He knew that the true Sith would eventually come, and so he allowed the Republic's military infrastructure to exist. There are several comments on this. Here is one. GOTO: "Revan did not intend to destroy the Republic. He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point.My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith. And that is why Revan left many military production facilities in the Republic intact.Unlike Revan, Malak demonstrated no concern for the future of the Republic in his attacks. His stratagems were painfully obvious, intending to crush all resistance, everywhere. There was little thought beyond the complete destruction of anything that opposed him.{Irritated}He left quite a mess. I'm still trying to assess all the damage.Between the two, I would have preferred Revan rule the galaxy. He had foresight in his conquest, a subtlety that Malak did not possess.That is what occupies my calculations as well. I believe that Revan saw a war on another front that we did not, or saw the value in keeping a strong military force." So while Revan would have conquered the Republic, he would also have prepared it for the next war against the true Sith. How much or how little he was corrupted by the dark side is immaterial, since he would have armed the Republic in time either way - either to save the Republic or else to protect his own empire. The jedi actually messed up that plan, since their interference gave Malak a chance to replace Revan, and unlike him, Malak did not care how much of the Republic he destroyed, as GOTO mentions in the above. Yet using him casually because it's convenient is a mark of the Sith, not the jedi. They argue redemption, but they are not willing to put it to the test, and they can't even be bothered to ask his companions if he has changed. The fact that they don't suggests that they are more concerned with his disobidience than with his motives for defying them, which speaks volumes about their own arrogance. I'd agree that it's a snap decision, but not irrational. The Exile could wound the force. What if he could kill it outright? What would the consequence of that be? They don't know and, yes, they fear that, but it's not irrational - they are the jedi masters, and if they don't know, then chances are that nobody does. Since life and the force itself are tied, maybe he could kill all life in the galaxy. If that's the case, then letting him keep his power is a risk that they cannot allow to exist - you don't stand around wondering if that grenade is about to go off - you throw it away before it explodes in your face! The problem is that the Exile represented a much greater and far more immediate threat than the Sith did. Sure, the Sith might hunt the masters down and kill the jedi, but if the Exile can kill all life everywhere, then he is a much greater threat. Once they deal with him, they can continue to worry about the Sith. Again, I'm not saying I agree with their decision, just that this is what they thought.

Don't remind me - I don't want to cry myself to sleep... :D

Actually if anything, I'd rather he wrote. His overall ideas aren't bad, he just needs someone to flesh them out and then needs someone to actually implement them into movie and make sure the actors see that same vision, something Georgie seems to struggle with. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Write the overall story? - okay. Write actual events and dialogue? No thanks. ROTS hangs together fine plotwise, but the whole "Anakin did it all for love" theme grows a bit thin, and the dialogue is really uninspiring most of the time. "NOOOOOO" was good, but it's not much of a line... About the only really good line in ROTS was "So this is how liberty ends - with thunderous applause..." - that was very moving. And I *hate* wookiees doing Tarzan-yells :angry: It was bad enough in ROTJ, so there really is no reason to repeat it. Indeed, the repetition is bad. "This is where the fun begins", "I have a bad feeling about this", and so forth. I suppose it's meant to draw on the spirit from the earlier films, but to me it just looks unoriginal and boring...

In your opinion, at least. It's fair and fine that you like K1 better, but please acknowledge that other people need not agree with you, and their opinion is just as valid as yours. If you like K1 and want to argue that, that's totally fair, but everybody else has the same right to argue their opinion as well. You thinking that K1 was better doesn't make it so, and you pretty much state that as a fact, when you write sentences like "Not everything in k1 makes 100% perfect sense, but they do a lot more than they do in K2". It's still just your opinion, not a fact. Actually, that's what the council wanted him to do... They wanted everybody to just wait around and sip tea or whatever while millions died in the outer rim. Revan wasn't prepared to just wait around while that happened. I can't say I blame him... Defeating the Sith was *not* the reason why they wanted to cut him off from the Force - they wanted to cut him off because he could wound the Force and they felt the potential consequences of that ability were too dangerous to allow to exist. I don't agree with their decision, but their motives are not what you claim here. Yes, but just because you must do a thing, you don't just casually shrug and say, "hey, we had to, so there is no blame...". They used Revan against his wishes, and they didn't even tell him. Or as master Vash puts it, "We take responsibility, Atris, not cast blame." They forgot to do the first in K1... What would have happened if they had told him the truth during his re-training on Dantooine and then *aksed* him to help them? True, he might have refused to cooperate, but the point is that they didn't even give him the chance to agree or disagree to help. As Mission says later, "you're not that person anymore". Mission was a teenage girl, and she got the point. The masters clearly didn't, or else they just didn't care... What does that say about the masters? " And they could have - they could have questions to determine his moral and ethical standing. They could have asked Bastila and Revan's companions what sort of a person he was now. But they couldn't be bothered and instead just used him like a pawn. And then they won't even accept responsibility for it? Pathetic! Jedi hypocrisy at its worst! They truly were no better than the Sith! How do you know that Revan didn't know about the true Sith at that point. Kreia's comments suggest otherwise to me. "And Revan knew that the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way." "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil." Now, you may not agree that Revan knew the true Sith were out there, but the above suggest different to me. Please don't ignore that point just because it undermines your position. Feel free to disagree or argue otherwise, but please back up your position with actual references to the game if you do, and please don't ignore my argumentation just because it doesn't fit with your perspective on the matter.

Yes, but you can't blame the masters for not acting at that point - they were a bit dead at the time... It's because the Exile has done something that is unprecedented - he has created a "wound" inside the force itself and defied the very will of the force. The masters are shocked that this is even possible - how can you wound the force? And if you can wound it, what else can you do? Can you kill it? If you can, then what would happen? Where would the jedi and sith get their powers from? Or if the Force is life, then wouldn't all life die? Those are the questions that concern the masters, and they decide that it's simply too great a risk to take. Now that the Exile has regained access to the force, he has become inherently destructive to it, because his own connection to it is still severed - he has access only by siphoning force from others through his force bonds - like a leech or a parasite, he drains the force from others around him, and his natural abilities as a leader makes others agree to this willingly - he effectively makes them submit to it through his power of the force. But his unique abilities could be a great danger. What if he created another wound? Maybe a much greater wound? Maybe he could hurt or even kill the force itself. The consequences if that were to happen are beyond imagination, so rather than take any risk, the masters decide to sever the connection once and for all, so that the danger ceases. They were willing to let the Exile go free a decade before, because they thought he had lost all connection to the force when he cut himself off from it. But they've come to see that they were wrong, and that he can still use and affect the force through his force bonding abilities with others. So they want to cut him off completely and thereby seal the wound once and for all, before the Exile can do more damage. They actually don't know how much of a threat his ability is to the force, but they decide that the risk of him doing more harm to the force is too great. So yes, they act out of fear of what could happen, and not out of knowledge. Kreia feels the opposite. She hates the force. She hates the will of the force and how manipulates and controls people - makes them do what it wants them to. Perhaps she hates it because she feels wronged by it and perhaps because it's a greater manipulator than she is. Either way, she finds the Exile beautiful, because he does not submit to the will of the force - he can reject and defy its will, and even hurt it when it tries to exert its will over him. He did that on Malachor V, when the force tried to tell him to embrace the dark side - it dictated to him that after all the horrors he had seen, he had to embrace the dark side like all the other jedi who turned there. All those who did not die on Malachor had to submit to the dark side of the force. But the Exile didn't - he rejected his fate and the will of the force, and when the force tried to exert its will over him, he cut himself off from it, wounding the force, rather than accept its will. It is not something he was supposed to be able to do, but he did it anyway, and it demonstrates a unique ability in him. Note something Kreia says. She says it about Nihilus' power to drain worlds of life, but it applies just as much (if not more) to the Exile: Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand." This is precisely what the Exile did. He severed his connection to life and the force and then feeds on the death it causes. He never learned to do this anywhere - he gained the ability through instinct from the horrors he experienced on Malachor V. The trouble is that for a decade the Exile didn't even realize himself that he could do this. Kreia did, however, and she marvels at the ability, because *finally* someone can defy the will of the force, refuse the destiny it sets for all. Atris tells us that she intends to kill the force itself. Kreia sees the force as a dark, uncaring god that coldly uses people in its constant struggle between the light and the dark, imposing its will upon them and using them with no concern for their suffering. I'm not so convinced that Kreia actually wants to kill the force, but she does want to expose it as this dark god, and threatening to kill it is the only way she can make others listen to her philosophy. She doesn't care that the Exile kills her, because by even trying to stop her, he proves her point about the Force - if she wasn't right, then he wouldn't need to stop her in the first place.

"Oh that's great - we only have 14 left..." :D

The defense rests

Jolee broke the code by: - Falling in love and getting married. - Training her in the ways of the force against the masters' wishes. - Didn't stop her when she turned dark side. - Allowed her to kill other jedi. Kae broke the code by: - Falling in love and having a child. Which is worse? Would Kae's child come before the jedi no matter what? She did send it away and kept it hidden for a decade. Doesn't suggest to me that she placed it above the order. And even if it did, Jolee got married. People will go rather far for their spouses - just look at how far Anakin will go to save Padm

And there is a movie where Kreia is kicked into the depths of Malachor and exploding Palpatine-style, which replaces the movie where the Ebon Hawk rises from the depths to rescue you as the Trayus Core falls apart. The Trayus Core doesn't fall apart in the DS ending - you just zoom out from it and see Malachor V from a distance (not exploding), and then the credits roll. There - total spoiler.

One thing I noticed concerns Kae's exile from the jedi order. We're told that the reason for it is that she has a child and is disgraced when this is discovered, and then she is exiled from the order, since jedi aren't allowed to have children. But one thing that struck me as odd is that we heard about Jolee Bindo's backstory in K1, and his infraction of the rules seems to be far worse. He took a wife, which is against the rules in the first place. Then he taught her the jedi ways against the wishes of the masters. She then turned Sith and joined Exar Kun's ranks in the Sith War. She tried to recruit Jolee to the dark side, and when he wouldn't, she tried to kill him. He defeated her, but could not bring himself to kill her, and so she lived and escaped to kill other jedi. And what did the jedi order do? They forgave Jolee. They said he needed sympathy. Jolee left the order not because they blamed him, but because he couldn't stop blaming himself, and they wouldn't take his guilt seriously. Jolee knew the responsibility was his and he accepted it. The council could learn a lot from Jolee. Now, Kae has a child and she's exiled for it? Next to Jolee, that seems to be an exceedingly harsh and cruel sentence. So she fell in love and had a child. Big deal. Jolee not only fell in love, he married and taught the force to someone who then couldn't handle it. His crime was far greater, yet he was pardoned? Odd... But the thing about Kae's sentences is to consider the source. It's Kreia who tells us that this was the reason she was exiled. Nobody else ever tells us that. Disciple mentions that Kae was exiled, but he doesn't say why. Handmaiden never even mentions that her mother was exiled at all. So both Kae and Kreia had Revan as a padawan. Not merely apprentice - the term "padawan" is specifically used in both cases. We have both of them exiled at the same time, just before the Mandalorian Wars. Kreia for her dark teachings and Kae for having a child. But for Kae we only know that from Kreia herself, and she could have ulterior motives for being less than truthful, especially if she is Kae and her daughter is aboard (and I don't think you get that conversation path unless the Handmaiden is aboard, since it occurs in relation to her presence). And we have have both of them presumed dead during the Mandalorian Wars. Though it is indeed circumstantial evidence, I do find it to be rather convincing. They could be different people, but those are a lot of coinciding factors...

Btw, Vrook is also the only master stupid enough to actually reveal the truth of Revan's identity right in from of the player when meeting the council on Dantooine in K1. Note how long this is before Bastila and Malak reveals the truth - it's while they're discussing whether or not to train you... Vandar: "Many of our own pupils are leaving the Jedi order to follow the Sith teachings, we need recruits to stand against Malak! With Revan dead..." Vrook: "Are you certain Revan is truly dead? What if we undertake to train this one, and the Dark Lord should return?" Great, Vrook - you just spilled the beans....

Perhaps you were playing with the sound turned off? :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh. Also helps not to read the text... " :D Yes, I tend to agree. Vrook may be a decent jedi, but if I were on the council, he'd be about the last I'd sent to settle a dispute somewhere - two seconds and he'd be scolding everyone in sight for not behaving strictly according to the superior nature of the jedi code or some such - wars start that way... Still, it might also work the opposite way, in that all the quarrelling parties can at least agree that they have their disgust of his superior and arrogant attitude in common I sort of do like Vrook, but only as the grumpy and rediculous old man that nobody can really take seriously. To me he's just like Water Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men". He's just that silly and stupid. Yup. Everything else just gets vowen into his flawed perception of things and only serve to confirm his high opinion of himself. I mean, this guy won't even listen to what other masters have to say...