Jediphile

If you don't mind the "childkiller" status "... you evil, evil person!" Or was that cut? I seem to recall that lots of this stuff was cut in some countries due to fear of a media scare. Silly people...

The StarForge Robes if you play lightside, yes, but not the alternate robes you get when playing dark side. Weren't those actually called "Darth Revan robes"?

I think we have a winner...

Though I love the Fallout games (1 and 2), I do think it's appropriate to make people aware of their age. There is very little spoken dialogue and lots of text to read, and all the graphics are 2D. By today's standard, that would make most people reconsider. However, if you have no problem with that, then they are highly recommended. Personally I find Fallout 2 to be slightly better, but you'll definitely want to play Fallout 1 first, if you want the full experience, as there are many references to it in the sequel. Interesting trivia: Fallout 1 is also a sequel of sorts to the old Wastelands CRPG. I do not recommend playing that first, though. I never did, and I never felt it limited my enjoyment of Fallout in any way, even though there are people who have argued about points in the games that refer back to it. And Wastelands is old to say the least - we're talking ancient CRPG history all the way back to the roots with the original Bard's Tale games and so, all back to the 80s!

Oh, and my very own evil Exile-femme-fatale

Actually, in some ways I'm glad the Atris-Traya was never in the game, since I don't like the look of her much. I mean, what sort of thing is that on her head? If Atris is to be Traya, then fine, but let her keep her white robes, since that served much better to underscore how cold and unapproaching she is, I think. The dark costume just looks peculiar to me Not like Kreia's look as Traya - that was cool

Yes... from the jedi's position. That does not mean that Talia has to see it the same way, since she is not restricted by the jedi code. I do get the sense that Kavar is strictly business around her, so I doubt the relationship goes any deeper than that, but that still doesn't mean that she couldn't have feelings for him. She does seem more than a little concerned for his safety at one point...

it's only 1 point of defence actually.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sorry - my bad :">

Well, Revan's defiance of the masters isn't really such a big deal - so he disobeyed the council, so what? The masters don't need to be right just because they sit on the council, and in this case they seem to have been more wrong than usual. Ulic defied the council too, yet that disobedience isn't what caused him to fall - it was his choice to embrace the dark side that let him to his downfall, and even the masters accepted that he had to walk the path he had chosen. The masters of Revan's time seem more arrogant and have little respect for the individual jedi's right to follow his own choices, and that begs defiance at some point. The masters told Revan and the others that they were not allowed to move against the Mandalorians while millions died in the outer rim. But a jedi's life is sacrifice, and it was probably instinct for many of the jedi to want to do something about it. By being stubborn about it, you could argue that the masters forced Revan's choice - if he and Malak hadn't defied them, then someone else probably would have. Given how many jedi followed Revan and Malak, it seems to justify Revan's choice at that point. So I think the real problem came later, when Revan decided to convert the jedi who served with him. I cannot see defiance of a harsh authority that dictates your duty to you as a real crime. On the contrary, most of the more horrible crimes of humanity we could mention in the real world have come about when people have blindly followed the orders of their leaders.

Actually, I did think there was a little more between them, but only from Talia's side - I never got the impression that Kavar was anything but serious business when they talked, though she seemed to be more... dedicated, somehow.

In short it's due to his rather peculiar arm. The bad thing of it is that the reason isn't plot defined but because the devs couldn't make his arm work right with a robe, and so he was banned from ever using one. Yes, that does officially suck... Still, if you want to turn him into a jedi and have unrestricted use of force powers, I recommend that you hang onto the miner suit you found very early in the game on Peragus - it is the only piece of protective clothing in the game that Bao-Dur can use and still use any force power. It's bad - only 2 points of defense - but it's better than nothing, and it does at least allow armor upgrades.

Statement: Of course, master - that's why I included it "

True. Finding out about Atton's background is more of a side quest, yet that never appears in the journal either... Well, they should have at least stuck a few of them in the journal, particularly Atton's, since it becomes clear rather early that there is much more to him. Same with Kreia btw. True, and that's only part of the problem. What is really annoying is how the influence options don't change depending on alignment switches - Bao-Dur will still react negatively to killing the innocent even after you've corrupted him to your Sith ways, and HK-47 will still complain about compassion and mercy when you help the weak, even if you push him to extreme light side, and I did that in my last game, which is really quite funny - both HK-47 and G0T0 were so lightsided that would have had LS mastery if it was possible for them

Doesn't matter what his reasons are - what a man does will define whether he is good or evil. Thrawn did a lot of really nasty and manipulative things - manipulating the Noghri, using C'Baoth for his own interests, killing people in his battles, killing people under his command when they didn't live up to his expectations, spying on the Alliance, trapping the fleet on Coruscant, etc. And it was all done to revive the Empire - not a particularly benevolent motive. Thrawn's real mistake was the same that such people always make - arrogance. He was too certain that he could keep on manipulating everybody and never have them uncover his deception, in his case with the Noghri. Only too late did he learn that arrogance and self-delusions of grandeur are always punished harshly. It sounds to me like you like Thrawn. That's fine. Thrawn is smart, which is a good trait. But don't excuse his actions on that basis. I like Garak on Star Trek DS9 because he was secretive and manipulative, but I do so for his skills, not because I think he's a person who deserves admiration. He was a well-written and beautifully played character, but does not mean I like his character or would desire his traits in real people. On the contrary, I find him fascinating probably mostly because he scares the crap out of me, same way that Hannibal Lecter does.

Gee, thanks.... I guess

This I doubt. Sorry, but I do. I've been looking in the TotJ comic books, and the closest I've found is on page 23 of the first issue of "The Freedon Nadd Uprising", when it says, "Outlawed for their evil practices, the Sith civilization long ago vanished into obscurity. The end of the Sith people also marked the disappearance of their Dark Lords". This does not suggest to me that all the Sith worlds were assimilated by the Republic or even that they are known to the Republic. Still, I could be wrong, but I'd like to see evidence to the contrary before I accept it, and even if I did, it seems clear that the KotOR games have already decided to commit to a different version of events. Note Atton's comment about how Onderon is as far as the core that you can get and still be in the Republic, and Kreia's comments about how Korriban and Malachor V are on the fringes of the old Sith empire and had been been forgotten by the true Sith. Well, I do see your point... I guess the problem lies in the difference in how you tell a story in a comic book and how you tell it in a computer game. In the KotOR games you play the main character yourself, and that makes it pretty difficult to describe the sort of guilt and soul-searching that Ulic goes through in "Redemption", because in the game all the decisions and answers must come from the player. It might be easier in K3 if Revan is actually in it and is an NPC. We can hope, at least... It's nonsense only if you think that excuses Revan, which I don't - he made a choice and did what he did, and so the responsibility and blame lies with him in the end. We haven't seen how it all plays out, so I'll reserve my judgment on that issue until I actually see K3. But yes, we'll have to see - assuming a LS ending of K1 - a Revan that is truly repentent of what his choices resulted in and went to fight the true Sith alone as a way to atone for his sins. But it'll take pretty good writing to do something like that without making it seem pretty lame. It can be done, though.

Their empire fell, yes, but that doesn't mean the people died. The fall of the Roman Empire didn't mean that its people died, for example, so I don't see there is a problem claiming that there are still those Sith descendants who dream of reviving their old and great empire. If we wanted to explain it all, we could claim that the Sith spirits that prepared Exar Kun did this to weaken the Republic with internal strife, so that the old Sith empire could be revived and conquer the republic, though I admit that I doubt the idea that revenge was the motiviation for the Sith. After all, Exar Kun was corrupted by the spirit of Freedon Nadd, and he was never one of the old Sith, he just learned from them. Also, while the worlds of the old Sith empire might have been assimilated by the Republic at the time of the movies, we know they aren't in KotOR2. Note that Attons says, "Onderon is about as far from the Core as you can get and still be in the Republic". And either way, Kreia directly tells us that the true Sith are indeed tied to the Sith empire at the end: Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark." The idea of redemption is a powerful one, and if you don't like it on a personal level, then there are a great many stories you won't like. It's also a fairly common idea, so to say that it's plagiated just because it was also used in another Star Wars plot seems like a very harsh judgment to me. Besides, what if Revan was made into an instrument of evil by the dark side? Is he still guilty then? And if he did evil things in K1 (player choosing DS ending), then doesn't the blame for it really lie with the jedi council who manipulated his mind and then set him free to pursue his evil again? The idea of atonement is also tied to redemption. Is that acceptable? You could say no, but then if you apply that harsh a judgment for people, then who is ever without guilt? Personally I like the concepts of redemption and atonement, because I don't like the idea that people cannot change for the better, which seems to me like the inevitable consequence of the alternative. But that's a discussion for philosophers and theologians...

Well, it's an assumption on my part, but I do think it's a fairly obvious one. The Sith Empire was said to be more powerful than the Republic, though smaller. Still, that was in the golden age of the Sith, when Naga Sadow began the Hyperspace War, and the Sith Empire was probably hurt a lot when they lost that war. Then again, that was a thousand years before KotOR, so a lot may have happened since. For example, both Malachor V and Korriban seem to be known worlds in the Republic. But there are still several of those worlds we haven't heard much about or which haven't been used since in KotOR games, including Ch'hodos, Rhelg (the private world of Ludo Kressh), and Khar Delba and its moon Khar Shian (which was Naga Sadow's secret world). And naturally the most central world is the throne world, where the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the empire - Ziost. And that is where I suspect Revan may have gone, and where a KotOR3 may take us. May not seem like much, but I always got the impression that these were just a few names for some token Sith worlds that served as examples for the all the worlds we didn't hear about. After all, the Sith empire was an empire, so it's scarcely just one planet. Besides, note how Kreia says that Malachor and Korriban - which are the only old Sith worlds we hear of - were on the outskirts of the Sith empire... That leaves us plenty of Sith to bash in the next game

Oh, I agree completely - it was fairly obvious that it was a means to an end. But it was at least done well, which is better than what we usually get to see in these situations.

Well, I really don't think that the true Sith were 'invented' as a sort of plotwise "Evil Deux ex Machine" device that just serves to explain Revan away. I really think they are the descendants of the Sith Empire led by Dark Lords such as Marka Ragnos, Naga Sadow, and Ludo Kressh. They are part of the KotOR era (in the "Tales of the Jedi" comic books), so I don't find it unreasonable to bring them into the KotOR games at some point, and if a powerful common enemy for both LS Revan and DS Revan to fight is needed, then they're practically begging to be used. They were defeated 1000 years ago, so what has happened since? The Republic just forgot them, which is always a dangerous thing to do... This will always be the dilemma in a plot like this - how can you have a character that belongs to the player and yet has background history that you can use for your plot. After all, if you let people choose those, you have to write ten different plots based on their choices, and that's just not going to happen in a computer game. Instead they chose to make Revan the Jason Bourne of Star Wars. Not terribly original, but not bad either - I think the result was okay. I was more disappointed that all the information we got about Revan early on in the game turned out to central plot material than carefully detailed historic background for the setting, since that meant there is no information you hear in KotOR1 that just random trivia - it's all directly tied to the central plot. I like it the other way - if I run a story in my RPG campaign and need to give the players some important information, but not make it obvious that it's important, then I bury that information in five, ten or even fifteen other pieces of information that is just trivial campaign background or pure rumor. Not much of that in the KotOR games, even though there is a *lot* of dialogue... I don't agree at all. Yes, Revan is power, as Kreia would say, but he is certainly no perfect jedi superman. For all his power, Revan made a terrible mistake - he allowed his own certainty in his abilities to let him believe that he could challenge the dark side and use it as a tool, and his mistake was greater than Ulic's, because Ulic really only wanted to do it to infiltrate and expose the Sith. But the dark side - as it always does - twisted Revan and made him its slave. It's the sad old tale that power corrupts, and Revan learned to his peril that his own power only made him more vulnerable, not less. As I see it, he did convert the jedi on Malachor V and create the armada with the Star Forge all to fight the true Sith. It was a daring plan to use the mysteries of the dark side to fight the Sith, but as such things often go, the original intent was forgotten along the way. Maybe Revan just gave in to his own ambitions, his utter conviction in his own greatness, or maybe he was misled by the dark side or twisted more than he thought by using the Star Forge. It doesn't really matter which it is, and it's probably best to leave that for the individual player to decide, because the end effect is the same - Revan's plans to fight the true Sith to save the Republic was twisted into a plan to rule the true Sith by first conquering the Republic and then using its resources to also conquer and rule the true Sith. But then Malak turned on him as the jedi confronted him, and he lost his memory. Is it a bit forced? Yes, a little. K1 ended with a true ending (for LS or DS), so how do you follow up on that? How do you make a direct sequel to a game, where the good or evil endings are so different? You can only do that confronting the major character with something that threatens him no matter which side of the Force he ended up on. Enter the true Sith. A little force, granted, but as forced plots go, this one really isn't so bad IMHO, and it at least has the virtue of being based on already established EU lore. It's a "Oh, the Sith Empire - how could we forget the Sith Empire!?!" sort of plot. So LS Revan will now go and finish the job, because he feels guilty - his plan backfired, and he ended up leaving the Republic even more vulnerable to the true Sith than he intended. So he will sacrifice himself again, fall to the dark side willlingly, but now do so among the true Sith, where he cannot harm the Republic any more. And as Kreia says, he must leave those he loves behind, because such attachments are not the way of the jedi - if he took Bastila with him, for example (or Carth for female Revan), then he would not be able to do what was necessary due to the emotional attachments. So Bastila (or Carth) stays... For DS Revan it's a question of control. Revan realised that the Star Forge was controlling him more than the other way around. He will rule the Republic and the true Sith as well, but he will not become a slave to the Star Forge to do so, and since the Republic is shattered from the Jedi Civil War and he doesn't want to pay the price of using the Star Forge, he must instead go and challenge the true Sith for leadership of their empire directly. As Kreia says on Korriban, civil wars are common among the Sith... And he went alone because his "friends" would just be a distraction. Besides, he really didn't need them anyway...

Can't happen - Atton and T3 both join on Peragus and Bao-Dur and Handmaiden before you leave Atris' academy on Telos, so there is no way to go to Korriban before then. Besides, even if there were, I'm not sure you could enter the tomb at that point, since it seems to be tied to your level and alignment.

Indeed there are - check the \StreamVoice\907\904KREIA directory in your KotOR2 folder to listen to some of it. It's a sequence that was cut from the game, but it has Atris as Traya confronting Visas, Handmaiden, Atton and Mira with Kreia nowhere around.

Playing a male exile sentinel/jedi master, I've reached the tomb on Korriban. All as expected and so forth, until I got to the part where I meet a vision of Kreia, whereafter Atton and then Bao-Dur and T3 turn up and insist on fighting her. However, when the battle began, suddenly the Handmaiden was there alongside Atton, Bao-Dur and T3. What gives? Never happened to me before, but it seems consistent - she was there every time I reloaded. Has this happened to anyone else? Is this a known bug? I did have Handmaiden (and Atton) amond the people left behind when the Exile entered the tomb, and I'm wondering if that had something to do with it...

I still voice support for the planets I have in the past. Begin on Coruscant, then move onto Alderaan, Sleheyron and Myrkr. All worlds that are known, but which we haven't seen or explored much, especially not in the KotOR age. Then move onto the Sith worlds - Khar Shian/Khar Delba and Ziost, which we've heard of only briefly.

Atton: "I mean, how old do you think she is? {Shakes head}She may have been good-looking once, but it takes some hard living to make creases like that."