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Jediphile

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  1. Wow, interesting topic here. It may have gone off in many different directions, but it's intersting, so who cares? I'll just try to note a few things I noted on reading it all... On there being no "grey" in the force, including Jolee: Jolee is/was indeed grey - he rejects both the light and the dark while walking an extremely thin line between the extremes. He is not Sith, but he is not light side either. Need proof? Note how he can use neither equipment restricted to light nor dark side. Nope, he cannot use the dark side stuff you find on Korriban, but nor can he use the Star Forge Robes or other light side stuff you can find in KotOR1. He is indeed neither light nor dark sided, and this is how it is reflected in game terms. On Kreia being Kae: I really felt this was a misconception going into the topic, but I must confess that there have been made compelling arguments for it being the case. It certainly has not been proven conclusively (or at all), but it seems equally difficult to disprove the theory. I guess many deny the possibility because we just don't like the nice and innocent Handmaiden having such a nasty mother, though I guess it would speak volumes about how the storytellers feel about their mother-in-law, I guess I still feel that the best argument against it is how the Handmaiden goes to great lengths to establish how Echani children look very much like their parents, and she bears the face of her mother. Even had Kreia been altered a lot by the dark side, surely the handmaiden sisters or someone would have noted a striking similarity, wouldn't they? Other than that, the best argument against Kreia being Kae is simply that we never see the scene that the programmers would otherwise have been unable to resist doing: Kreia: No, Servant of Atris - I am your mother! Handmaiden: Noooooooooooo..... [jumps into conveniently-placed nearby bottomless pit...] :D As for Kreia's weird hatred of the force, it seems really odd to me that nobody has actually mentioned something I find really obvious here yet. Particularly when the whole subject has so clearly been beneath the surface of many points here. Bear with me... Note how G0-T0 and some others on Nar Shadaa are describing the Jedi/Sith wars and how people hate the Jedi on Dantooine. A lot of people seem to blame the Jedi for the status quo of the galaxy, and it's interesting how the events of KotOR1 have been named the "Jedi Civil War" when it was really a war between the Jedi and the Sith. Why is that? Well, I mentioned G0-T0 because he actually says it best - few people see much distinction between Jedi and Sith - they just the same, except at different ends of the same philosophy. HK-47 actually says something similar if you ask him enough, as do many other people. The key word I driving toward here is religion. As most common people see, the Jedi and Sith are fighting a religious war over doctrines. This is also stated several times. Now, given how the force is described as a powerful energy/lifeforce that penetrates everything and yet - according to Kreia - has a will of its own, that seems to imply that the force itself is an intelligent and willful entity of some form. No, I'm not talking merely about the midi-chlorians here, who simply seem to facilitate interaction with the force (as Qui-Gon puts it, without the midi-chlorians, the Jedi would simply have no knowledge of the force) - I'm talking about the force itself. Add all this up, and doesn't it begin to sound as if the force is all-powerful and dominating? It certainly implies spirituality in some form, so the next logical step would be to see the force as God as defined by christianity or other religions. The force is different, of course, since it is both good and evil (light side is God, dark side is Satan). Note how Sith lords often have haunting red eyes or similar demonic traits, while the Jedi are almost angelic in many cases (the robes are a bit of a giveaway). So what does that have to do with Kreia? Well, Kreia is the Star Wars version of Ahab (from Melville's "Moby ****") - she is at war with God, i.e., the force. This might also be the reason the storytellers chose to maim her, just as Ahab was crippled (though Ahab lost a leg and Kreia a hand). Of course, it's not entirely the same (the white whale of Moby **** is a metaphor for God, which Ahab feels crippled him, and whom he wants vengeance against), but I still feel that the comparison is fairly obvious and that Kreia certainly blames and hates the force in much the same and therefore seeks vengeance against it. For example, we are never truly told why Kreia hates the force and seeks her vengeance against it, but like Ahab she is certainly willing to stab at the object of her hate with her last breath and is quite willing to sacrifice herself in the pursuit of her goal. Indeed, she knows full well and accepts that she must die as a consequence of her goal, just as Ahab did. And given the sly and deceptive creature that Kreia is, it is somehow fitting that we never learn her motives. Even had she said it, could we believe her? The same of true of her madness - it is madness or not to just the same extent that Ahab's was. And does the Exile himself not end up mirroring the fate of the protagonist of that novel (Ishmael), as Kreia tries to enlist his aid in her struggle, and he alone is eventually turns from her (whether light or dark sided), just as Ishmael did? Sure, this is Star Wars, so it has to be scripted differently, and Kreia's goals are unknown to us for a long time, but other than that, doesn't the similarities seem rather striking? It certainly explained a lot to me...
  2. Yes, I like the idea that Nihilus is sort of the "evil Exile" or more like the "nihilistic Exile", since an evil Exile would be the dark side character you can choose to play. I don't so much like the idea of letting Nihilus having the Exile's face, though. For one thing it has been done before, and I never care much for that sort of ploy. I mean, Nihilus still needs an intelligence behind him/it/whatever to command the fleet, give Visas orders, hunt down the Jedi, etc. Also, Nihilus betrayed Kreia by making an alliance with Sion, and that has some requirements. Considering how sly and manipulative Kreia is, I would hurt the story if Sion just throws his interests with a person who is just an empty void of nothingness and non-intelligence. But I do agree that Nihilus must definitely be tied to the Exile in some form, and given how the Exile is good at forming bonds to other people, I thought he would turn out to be someone the Exile knew well and who died on Malachor. I had a vision of the Exile's brother or best friend or some such (I'd say secret love, except the plot seems to reserve that place for Atris). It should also be someone pivotal to the Exile's decision on Malachor, which is why I mentioned one of the Exile's lieutenants in my last post. It would have been really cool if Nihilus had been the Exile's master or apprentice. I kept having this vision of the Exile seeing this person killed on Malachor and dying in his/her arms, and that was then the very point where the Exile made the choice to deny the force and create the wound in the force - the pain of seeing someone so close die would be so powerful that even the force itself would be swayed by it, and so the Exile could make a choice to step away from his/her fate. However, it was, as Kreia puts it, an escape - the Exile fled the consequences of what his/her choices had made him/her into and just left it all behind. This creates the wound in the force, but because the Exile denies this, some of himself/herself is stranded on Malachor and must exist in some other form. Instead it takes the fallen friend that is the focus of the Exile's torment and uses his body (and intellect) as a vessel for the wound and pain that the Exile has denied. I find that as a story plot this would have been rather powerful, since it would have forced the Exile to face what the choices on Malachor had done to his/her friend and how the Exile cannot escape the consequences of his/her choices and experiences on Malachor. It would also have been powerful to have the Exile come face to face with what his/her choice/flight/escape from reality had done to his/her old friend and made him into, as it would basically mean that the Exile's decision has forced the friend to become a dark and empty shell burdened by the Exile's own guilt and denial.
  3. Yeah, it's a bit annoying that they seem to use those terms interchangeably. I sort of got the difference when Bao-Dur mentioned his thoughts after the Mandalorians came to Iridonia, since that made it clear that it was his homeworld. That made it obvious that he was a Zabrak from Iridonia (and so an Iridonian), like we are all humans from Earth (and so 'earthlings'), but I wish they had been more consistant. I wish they had just referred to him as a Zabrak all along and not iridonian. In fact, I don't think he is ever actually referred to as a zabrak IIRC, which makes it all more confusing. Maybe there are other humanoid species on Iridonia, or maybe Iridonia is just world colonized by Zabraks and there is a different Zabrak homeworld somewhere. I was going to draw a comparison to the intelligent humanoid Mon Calamari and Quarren sharing the same homeworld, but that is actually even more annoying since that world is actually called Mon Calamari, which brings all sorts of trouble with it. What, the quarrens are from Mon Calamari, but can't call themselves that? No wonder there are tensions between the two species...
  4. There's a difference between an open ending and no ending. Empire Strikes Back had an open ending, where it was clear that a lot of plots were intentionally left unanswered (will Han Solo be rescued? Is Vader Luke's father? Will Luke become a jedi now that he has defied Yoda and Obi-Wan? Will Leia choose Han or Luke? Etc.). However, you did get closure to that chapter, even if it was a "to be continued"/cliffhanger ending - you knew where the protagonists were at in their internal relationships and which conflicts they had to confront in the next chapter. You just don't get that in KotOR2. I still don't know if Bao-Dur lived or died, or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight. I know that Mira (or Hanharr, if you were lightsided) lived, but otherwise I'm left with no idea of what happened to the characters I spend an entire game building relationships with. Kreia makes some predictions, but - I mean - consider the source.... Sure, I've read and heard much of the cut material, but we still don't know whether that will be considered 'canon' in the next game. After all, since it didn't make it into the actual game, it is not impossible for the developers of KotOR3 to just ignore it all, since it didn't really happen - it was just something planned that never made it into the game.
  5. How so? I have read those comics (well, I own them all...), and I think both KotOR games have done a pretty good job of acknowledging their existence. I mean, the KotOR games were built on the success of those comic-books and used them as the foundation. I don't see where they show any disrespect. I mean, they called the games 'Knights of the Old Republic', which was the title given to the collected paperback version of the "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast Wars of Onderon" and "Saga of Nomi Sundrider" in the five original issues of Tales of the Jedi. And how was the Jedi order different? Yes, there were some differences, but it was obvious that it would change some, given that Ossus was pretty much destroyed and the original order shattered at the end of the Sith War saga. I actually think we could make a better case of voicing disrespect of the original where starships are concerned, as they all look far more futuristic in the KotOR games (where they don't look too dissimilar to the starships of the movies some 4000 years later) than they did in the Tales of the Jedi comics, where the ships really did have an archaic feel to them.
  6. I'm not ignoring what happened in the last game, but the thing is that if you played light side and set Revan to light side, then there can still be Jedi left such as the Exile's companions (Atton, Handmaiden, Visas, Bao-Dur, Mira...) and possibly even Atris, if she turned back to the light side. And we know Bastila is still around. Also, while the academy on Dantooine was rebuilt only to have all the Jedi masters there die and most others were killed on Katarr by Nihilus, we still haven't heard anything about what, if anything, happened to the Jedi Council on Coruscant. And we do know there is a Jedi council on Coruscant. When Revan reaches the enclave on Dantooine in KotOR1, he/she comments that he thought the council was on Coruscant. Vandar replies that this is correct, but that the enclave is simply a training facility. So the fate of the council on Coruscant is still uncertain.
  7. Yes, KotOR2 is bigger, deeper... except for a few problems: 1. It's not finished - there are hordes and hordes of plots left hanging. 2. The cast isn't really any more interesting than in the first. Kreia is about the coolest character, but then Jolee was just as complex in the first game. HK-47 is still interesting, but he was in both games... Bastila and Handmaiden seem to share many... issues. The most interesting change is probably Visas, who is indeed more interesting and deep than Juhani was. You don't get to know her as well as Juhani, though. 3. You actually get to know who you're playing in KotOR1. I still don't feel I know the character I was playing KotOR2 even after finishing the game... You might feel different, but I had great difficulty identifying with the Exile since the game wouldn't let me know him. 4. Point 1 above means that you lack a certain sense of accomplishment after finishing KotOR2. I definitely got my payoff in the first game. Yes, KotOR2 has a richer story, but I only know that because I visit this forum and listen to the missing sound-files and read about the removed plots - not because I played the game. 5. As with all sequels, the original is always more, well, original... KotOR2 is an improvement in many respects within the actual game, but it doesn't feel as fresh as KotOR1, and there are many character from the first games I miss or recurring characters that I dislike or just find annoying. The most annoying thing in KotOR2 is probably how it keeps circling around Revan without ever letting us make any real discoveries of what happened to him.
  8. I actually put the major events of the KotOR games into my txt version of the complete timeline (which always describes the passage of time compared to the original Star Wars movie). The Sith War, which ends with Exar Kun's fall, officially takes place in 3996 before SW4. His fall is described as being about 40 years before KotOR1, which I therefore presume to take place 3956 years before SW4. KotOR2 takes place five years after that, which would then be 3951 years before SW4. Not official, but should be close enough.
  9. Statement: Master, my photo-receptors might be malfunctioning, since I fail to see any obvious examples of the hostile nature you describe here. Query: Could you perhaps direct us to where you find this source of hostility toward my masters? Conclusion: If you do, I can assure that I shall happily activate my assassination protocols in order to burn holes into the arguments of any erring meatbags of your choice. Yes, my bad - couldn't resist... Please take the above in the proper context.
  10. Since other people have voiced their likes and dislikes on the possible KotOR3, I guess I will too... Not sure about planets, but since I prefer the story to build on the what we've already seen, I'd prefer we see some of the worlds beyond the outer rim where Revan and the Exile went to find the "true Sith". Coruscant might be a good place to begin, though, and I really want to see Alderaan at some point. We could also have the main character go to worlds like Yavin IV and Korriban to look for clues to the Sith. Ossus would also be interesting, except it is already more or less destroyed by this point... As for the cast, it depends a lot on what changes are made to the engine itself. I like most of the characters in the games so far, but let's face it - with only three places open in the group, and one of those always taken by the main character, chances are you'll use only a few characters, and those tend to be the same characters every time. In KotOR1, I mostly used the Jedi characters (Bastila, Jolee, Juhani) next to Revan, and only occasionally the rest. HK-47 would make it into the group only for his responses, and I never used T3 at all. Ever! Yes, you need him to enter the Sith base on Taris (since Mission can't open no matter what her Security is), so I bought at the droid shop, walked the short way over the Sith base, had T3 unlock the gate, then removed him from the party before entering the base and never used him again. In KotOR2 I used T3 a lot more because Peragus demanded it (and because I could level him up to his maximum while leaving all the potential Jedi undeveloped), but it still doesn't mean I use all the characters - in KotOR2 I instead never or very rarely used G0-T0... Now, that's just waste of good character potential. I guess the large cast is there so you have something to choose between as a player no matter what sort of characters you like, but to me it looks like wasted character potential since you'll never be using all those characters. Besides, many of them are still forced on you in specific situations, or you have to deal with during cutscenes in the plot. My suggestion would be to either increase the number of available characters in the active group (there really is no logical reason to limit the number anyway) or else simply trim the number of potential characters down. Having so many characters in the group that you just cannot use due to forced game mechanics is rather annoying. That doesn't necessarily mean that the overall number of NPCs has to be smaller, though - you can still have a large cast of characters walking in and out of the group instead of, like now, have them remain permanently once they join. For example, you could have characters like the disciple or the handmaiden early in the game only to later leave the group when other characters join. There could even be hateful relationships between characters, where some characters refuse to stay in the group if others join. At bit like the Mira/Hanharr relationship in KotOR2. As for the plot, the events of the previous games have left the galaxy rather short on jedi for us to play in the next game. It can change, but at least we should begin where the games have left us until now. In all probability, the game will set up situations similar to that in KotOR2, where the alignment and gender of both Revan and the Exile will be decided by the player. If the Exile is set to light side, then the new character could be a student from a Jedi academy built by one of the Jedi characters from KotOR2 (Visas might be the most obvious). If not, then the character might begin as a Sith. In either case, I'd like the game to begin with the new character following a master as an apprentice in a Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship. Isn't it a bit odd that the KotOR games haven't really explore the master/apprentice relationship yet? It could also be interesting to have the master be Revan in disguise. After all, Revan can be both good and evil and male or female, but the teacher is just mysterious and secretive for a very long time. Or the main character could have a teacher who is killed early in the game and who is then hunted by the enemy while looking for a new master to learn from. Another interesting option might be to have the main character be a powerful force sensitive character (like Anakin) who still hasn't committed to either side of the force (force adept is a legal class in the tabletop d20 RPG), and who is then promptly sought out for apprenticeship by both the Jedi and the Sith. Which way to go is then for the character to decide. The character could being as a 0-level character making the choice to be apprentice during the intro. A character thrown into the middle of things in such a way would be a nice homage to Luke Skywalker. Or the character could be a former Mandalorian Jedi, who was thrown from the Jedi order due to his or her background, or who left in disgust at what the Jedi did to the Mandalorians. That could set up some really interesting situations with both Revan and the Exile (and Mandalore, too, come to think of it...). The plot will be more difficult because it needs to consider all the potential choices made during the previous games, and to be perfectly honest it looks to me like a storyteller's nightmare to reconcile all that has potentially happened into one plot... No idea how they'll do it (well, maybe an idea, but it still looks daunting), but it'll be interesting to see, unless they just ignore all the loose ends. Size is likely to be a problem, but I'd say cut down a bit on the dialogue in some cases. You should be able to talk to lots of people, but especially in KotOR2 I find that there are a large number of people who have little or nothing to say, while there are a few people who go on and on and on. Some of the conversations with Kreia or the HK-50 unit on Peragus are mind-bogglingly long. I want dialogue, but keep it to the point - I'll continue asking questions if I feel like it, so I don't need the game to force it on me. Whatever happens, we need to have a character that is rather easy to identify with, as that was a major problem for me with the Exile in KotOR2. I mean, in the first game you don't know that you're Revan (though there are certainly clues), and once you find out, you've heard so much about Revan that you're somehow ready for it. In KotOR2, however, the Exile is a general of the Mandalorian Wars who did a lot of things he or she is not so happy about and which he or she doesn't like to talk about, and so I don't actually know the character I'm suppossed to play very much. That makes it all but impossible to identify with the central character, and I'm actually still rather uncertain about what the Exile did and didn't do during the Mandalorian Wars. That's not a good basis for a role-playing game. The search for Revan and the Exile should also be important. Personally I'd really like the idea of getting both of the previous PCs in the group as NPCs at very high levels (starting at level 20+) at some point. Of course, they should both have unique abilities. For example, the Exile should definitely have Force Sight and either Force Crush or Force Enlightenment based on whether he or she is set to dark or light side. While there were no unique powers for Revan in KotOR1, he can easily have learned unique powers during his long seclusion and study of the ancient Sith or even simply remembered some of the powers he used to have as the dark lord. They should also both have other unique abilities that define their individually established strengths. For example, the Exile is the perfect general, while Revan is the master strategist and tactician. The influence system was a nice addition in KotOR2, but it really is in bad need of severe revision. It's basically a good idea, but it fails to take into account what sort of influence you've had over the characters. For example, it's fine that the Handmaiden is intended to be basically light side and want you to do benign things, but if you're very dark sided and have influenced the Handmaiden a lot toward the dark side, then she shouldn't continue to react positively only to light side choices. That's inconsistent and needs to revised badly. I mean, of course influence is and should be more relevant to a light side character - friendship and trust are light side concepts after all, while nobody likes being manipulated and treated like dirt, so naturally the dark side options should cost allies - nobody will like you if you tell them they're stupid and worthless except as expendable sacrifices. Then again, KotOR2 didn't do that either, and if that's too problematic, then it's better to remove the influence system entirely. Well, just a few thoughts...
  11. Yuthura Ban <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, actually my light side Revan made her see the error of her ways and leave Korriban in KotOR1, so that would seem to make her just as susceptible to the light/dark choices of Revan as Bastila... Is that speculation or do you know it would have been Yuthura?
  12. Oh, it is very simple....You see, Vash and Bastilla on Korriban were cut due to Lucasfarts rushing the game...Again There is remarkable physical evidence within the game's files to prove that they probably had Bast lined up to either join your party, or become a charecter something like Atris...I imagine there is FAR more to Vash than they could pack into a game that was rushed a year ahead of intened release <_< <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nooooooooo!!!!! They missed out Vash which was a major screw up (they should have gotten rid of one of other masters) but they missed Bastila out as well?!!!!! This is an insult to anyone who likes Bastila! :angry: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, actually Bastila did make a cameo appearance late in my game as a lightside male Exile. I presume Korriban would have been the place for Bastila to appear if you set Revan to dark side at the beginning of the game. If this assumption is correct, does anyone know who would have replaced evil Bastila on Korriban if Revan was set to lightside?
  13. Yes, I realize that Nihilus' inability to draw power from the Exile is due to the Exile's nature. However, that's an explanation for the player having a chance against Nihilus, not for Nihilus being a pushover. As I see it the fight should have left me thinking, "Wow, what a powerhouse! Good thing the plot made Nihilus overlook my secret advantage, or he would have wiped the floor with me" instead of, "Gee, was that all there was to this guy?" Yes, it makes sense plotwise, but it's still disappointing dramatically IMO... And while it technically makes sense that Nihilus shouldn't be able to drain force from the Exile (though actual game mechanics would have been unlikely to take that into account), that still shouldn't have stopped him from sucking the life/force out of my companions (Visas and Mandalore). It could have been both cool and scary to see them both go down and then suddenly face Nihilus alone... Besides, Nihilus should be a force-power-user, not a lightsaber-duelist. He is more of a Sith entity than a human force-user, so it would have seemed more appropriate for him to simply use lots of force-powers during the fight and no lightsaber at all. Well, that was my take at least... Still, I'm sort of hopeful that Nihilus might not be entirely dead... After all, how do you "kill" nothingness? He's just too good and scary a character to throw away that easily, so I'm sort of hopeful he might turn up again in the inevitable KotOR3.
  14. After finishing the game, it seems clear to me that the artifacts you refer to here are left as a clue to foreshadow some things that will happen in the plot when you return to Telos toward the end of the game. Those artifacts might sound mighty enticing, but things are not quite what they seem here, so I doubt it was ever the intention to let the player get to them. After all, Atris rescued them from Dantooine just before Malak's destruction of the Jedi enclave there. A remarkable stroke of good luck, seeing as how they just narrowly avoided destruction, right? Especially when we then learn that the Sith are hunting down Jedi and Atris herself has been fortunate enough to elude being detected or being killed along with the majority of Jedi on Katarr... This is actually one the things that I find still adds up nicely plotwise.
  15. Spoiler warning!! The 51 questions that were posted made me think of something I never quite figured out in the beginning of the game... The Exile is taken aboard the Harbinger for the purpose of being brought to Telos without the Exile's knowledge. Ok. The Harbinger then receives a distress signal from a freighter that it then goes to check out. Fair enough. Now comes my problem - what was that freighter? Was it the Sith warship mentioned or was it the Ebon Hawk? If it was the Ebon Hawk, then it would seem the Sith assassins boarded the ship and killed all but T3 and HK-47, but then where did Kreia come from? Sure, she could have been playing dead, but surely Darth Sion of all people (or Sithspawn...) would have seen right through that deception? He was her apprentice for a long time, after all. However, I seem to recall the captain of the Harbinger mentioning an abandonned Sith warship, which would then be where the Sith game from. If that's the case, then did Ebon Hawk get boarded by the Harbinger before or after the Sith attack? And when was the Exile brought aboard the Ebon Hawk? In any event, we still don't know where Kreia came from or how HK-47 ended up on the Ebon Hawk. It seems clear that T3 was the only droid to follow Revan to the outer regions and then come back on the Ebon Hawk. Where did he pick up HK-47? And where did Kreia come from? An interesting option is tied to how she tells the Exile that Revan returned to her after the events of KotOR1, so maybe Revan actually sent both T3 and Kreia to find the Exile. Sadly, this is never revealed... I still wonder about where Kreia came from, though. Was she on the Ebon Hawk or did she hide on the Sith ship? I don't think she was on the Harbinger. And who were the other dead people on the Ebon Hawk?
  16. I seem to recall hearing that too when playing the game, but I was playing a male Exile, so it couldn't have been the disciple. I think it was one of the masters, but I can't be sure...
  17. Agreed, though I guess I could have lived with his puny fighting abilities if he had at least served a purpose plotwise... I mean, I really expected a major revelation - like he was one of the Exile's Jedi lieutenants from Malachor or such. But instead he just dies, Visas takes his mask, and we never even get to see what's behind the mask
  18. "The Master everybody hates"? Shouldn't that be "The Master who hates everybody"? :D I sort of like Vrook, though only as a the grumpy, bitter old dude who can only criticize how bad everything has gotten and how nobody understand him etc... Sort of reminds me of a Monty Python sketch, where they play these old guys sitting around a table having a contest about who had the worst childhood by making more and more outrageous and ludicrous statements, then finish off by agreeing that they young people of today wouldn't believe them... That's exactly who Vrook is, though it make not make him the most suitable Jedi Master.... Hmm, Vrook falling to the dark side... Almost sad we won't see it.
  19. Maybe I've overlooked something, though I doubt it, but it seems Darth Nihilus is somehow a completely forgettable character in the game... He (or is it a she? It could be...) seems all powerful and menacing in the beginning, but seems to serve no purpose at all beyond setting up a few plot points for Kreia and Visas... And once you do confront him, it's over after a lightsaber battle and a few throwaway comments. I was rather unpleasantly surprised that he didn't seem to serve much of a plotwise purpose at all - he had far more potential... Heck, maybe Nihilus could even have been the evil Revan if he had been tougher... Wouldn't that have been a twist?
  20. Hi all. I'm new to this forum having recently played and finished KotOR 2. I've been following a few topics concerning the ending here, and I tend to agree with those people who are disappointed by the end or lack thereof... There is one point I really like to make to Obsidian that I don't see a lot of people making, however. It's quite simple really... If Obsidian think that our criticism is an indication that we didn't like the game, then they are completely wrong - we certainly did like the game! After all, we finished it, didn't we? Few people spend 50+ hours playing through a game they don't like. But that's just the point - playing for 50+ hours (and I know it was more for me...) and then getting stuck with what seems to be a missing ending is rather disappointing to say the least... To then go to the developers' own forum and finding how much was cut just makes it worse. Incidentally, why was the topic on the cut endings (http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=29764) closed? I've read through and have found people to generally demonstrate remarkable acceptance of the situation, and several asked that the subject be given priority on these boards. I applaued Obsidian for letting it stand on their boards, but closing it could be construed as an attempt to silence criticism... Now, don't get me wrong. I have read some of the responses people at Obsidian have made to people bashing KotOR2, and I'm convinced Obsidian is dedicated to quality and pleasing their consumers. But even so, the trouble is that a game was still realeased that many consumers find to be unfinished, and there seems to be little or no intention on the horizon of rectifying the situation. I actually predict that a gaming company will be sued by consumer groups within the next few years for releasing an unfinished game. I doubt it'll be Obsidian, because KotOR-fans seem to be remarkably loyal to the company in spite of getting an unfinished game. Sure, a lawsuit over a computer game may sound childish, but that's mostly because there's still stigma attached to video-games - if a consumer had bought a car without an engine or other essential component, nobody would question the right to protest. Obviously it is different in the entertainment industry, but a product was still released that many find to be unfinished, and if consumers accept that, then it will only prompt companies to continue to do so, since the consumers apparently accept it - qui tacet consentire videtur...
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