Jediphile

Actually, I was sort of planning to have Nihilus back... or not, dending on how you look at it. Point is, I just thought Nihilus had way too much potential to be killed off as he was in KotOR2. Not that I'm saying Nihilus will be miraculously resurrected as in some crappy D&D game. No, it will make a lot of sense. I actually replayed the confrontation with Nihilus yesterday and realized there were some details in there that would indeed speak in favor of a return for Nihilus... of sorts.

My only trouble is that trying to recruit the Mandalorians to join the war against the Sith is a bit like preaching to the choir - Revan already won Canderous over and made him his loyal follower in the first game. If Revan say "come", then Mandalore and his armies will follow, even over a cliff, so there doesn't seem to be much need to deal with the Mandalorians in KotOR3, because once the war begins, we know they stand with Revan no matter what - it has already been firmly established. Yes, the Mandalorians will undoubtedly be heavily involved in the final confrontations, but there is little reason to see them until them, and I doubt KotOR3 will just be one long battlescene. The KotOR games have been strongly driven by plot and character depth, so the third game is almost certainly going to be so as well. I don't see the actual war with the true Sith beginning until the final act of the game (equal to finding the Star Forge system in the first game or returning to Dantooine to meet the council in the second), though I do expect that final act to be longer this time.

I agree, but that just makes it sound stranger to me that you want the characters to go to Mandalore in KotOR3.

Going to Mandalore is fine if there is hard plot reasons for it. It is not if going there is simply because the Mandalorians "are cool and kick rear". Plot over coolness factors. Always. Well, they were there before. I guess reasoning behind was that Mandalore just went there to find the remnants of the troops stranded there at the end of the Sith War and their offspring. Except for the time stretch, it didn't seem that far-fetched to me. Besides, the Mandalorians are conquerors - they don't conquer much by sitting around on the homeworld just feeling content and good about themselves... Sorry, but I don't see much plot in that. Nar Shaddaa will always be a place where things go to get lost. I like to stay clear of Yavin IV since so much stuff has been taking place there. And it could mess with continuity if you go there, since Exar Kun's spirit is supposed to remain more or less undisturbed for millennia. What does Yavin IV have to offer that we haven't seen before? Pardon me, but so what? It's not as if them being mentioned in the comic books means that those worlds are suddenly obsolete. Besides, not much happened there in the first place, so I don't agree that they had much purpose in the past. Not to mention, those references are all more than a thousand years into the past at the time of KotOR3, so who's to say what's on those worlds now? Which Sith worlds would you suggest? It's a dead world in 4000 years, yes, which is precisely why it is convenient to have it populated during this time only to kill it off just as Katarr was. It's a known world, and it won't mess with continuity. I'm not saying Vjun should be in the game, just that it should be a place the protagonists learn has suddenly been drained of all life.

The Mandalorians will indeed be essential IMHO. As I see it, they will form the core of the army Revan has planned to stand against the True Sith. But while I see them as important for that reason, I'm less certain that we actually need to see their homeworld for that. I mean, for us to see their homeworld, there would need to be some conflicts for such there for the player to solve, and I don't think Canderous/Mandalore will allow dissent in his home - the Mandalore keeps his people are far too disciplined for that. Not that it wouldn't have its charm to see their world, though... True, but I included Kashyyyk because I have this idea of Zaalbar and Hanharr having a fight for leadership of a tribe. We don't know which tribe Hanharr came from, but it could be cool if he was an outcast from Zaalbar's tribe, in which case there is an obvious light/dark choice for how it plays out. Yes, I know Mira mentions how he killed his entire tribe, but she also said it was just a rumor. I find it just as likely that he killed several wookies and was then banished the shadowlands. If Hanharr came from Zaalbar's tribe, I think it really has potential for both an evil and good ending. For example, if Hanharr kills Zaalbar's father, you can help him kill the dissenters among the wookies for the dark side choice, or you can bring back Zaalbar to confront him and take control of the tribe for the light side choice. But either way, you get to add wookies loyal to your cause, who can supplement the army defending the Republic against the Sith. We always hear about how tough the wookies are, so let's see finally see their fury in battle. The idea of watching angry wookies tearing Sith troopers apart really sounds appealing to me. Why not? I'm not suggesting that Nar Shaada is where the final confrontation takes place, after all. But it could be a good place to stage a few events and drop some clues for the overall plot. I also think it might be a good place to let Jolee lurk about if Revan is set to light side. He'd help the poor while remaining in the shadows out of attention, just as he did on Kashyyyk. Korriban is a known world, yes, but I think the others are generally unknown to the Republic. I know Empress Teta followed Naga Sadow back the Sith Empire in the comic books, but that doesn't mean they're all known. Given that Korriban and Malachor V are both described as being on the outskirts of the ancient Sith Empire by Kreia in KotOR2, it would seem that at least Ch'hodos, Khar Delba, and Ziost are still fairly unknown. I mean, Ziost is established as the central world of the Sith, where the dark lord rules, so it's scarcely just some forgettable planet in the Sith Empire. And Khar Shian, the moon of Khar Delba, was Naga Sadow's secret base, so it would also be fairly well hidden from Republic eyes. Hmm, that said, I'd also like to see Vjun seveal millennia before Vader builds his castle there. Not sure if that is anywhere close to the Sith Empire, though...

Not quite sure about Mandalore, but I completely agree with regards to Coruscant and Alderaan. I do wonder why we haven't seen Coruscant yet. There could be legal reasons for it. After all, I hear Bastila's position was originally planned to go to Nomi Sunrider herself, only the idea was banned for some reason (possibly due to rights of creative ownership - note how everything written about Nomi is written by Tom Veitch and/or Kevin J. Anderson). Not that I mind that so much. Bastila is a good character and Bioware did the right thing - they made the limitation a strength. But we might not have seen Coruscant for similar reasons, in which case we won't in KotOR3 either... Anyone know? Anyway, my preferred list of featured planets include: Coruscant (beginning and finale) Alderaan Myrkr Nar Shaada Kashyyyk These are the initial worlds, but we also need some Sith worlds. Among those I could see: Ch'hodos or perhaps Korriban Khar Shian (moon of Khar Delba) Ziost I still think Korriban has some secrets left, but I *really* don't want to see the Shyrack caves or the Sith academy again - just the Valley of the Sith Lords and some new unexplored areas of the tombs or so. Khar Shian might be the place to find Revan again, since he/she would have gone there to explore some of Naga Sadow's secret Sith magics. Most likely Revan will have reverted to the dark side again, but then that's appropriate - sacrifice for the greater good has always been Revan's strength. And since the enemy will be the true Sith, Ziost is just a no-brainer - we simply *must* go to Ziost!! EDIT: Oh, I forgot about Myrkr. The planet is known at this time, but since Ossus was lost, I guess the jedi have forgotten for a while. I include it because it could be so cool to have the group set down on a world unsuspecting and - poof - hey, where did my force powers go!?! Also, Myrkr ties in nicely with a potential ending I'd really like to see...

Well, you don't always level up or accumulate xp in PnP. I run an AD&D campaign myself, but I grant xp on the basis of good role-playing alone, so killing any number of monsters or enemies won't matter in the slightest - I won't award xp for it. Period. I will award xp for good decisions in the game, though. For example, if you've freed the peasant's daughter (no reward - peasants have no money) from an orc camp and the orcs discover you as you sneak out, then you could fight the orcs or you could run. Lots of players would fight since they gain xp that way, but doing so, you would endanger the life of the group and the peasant's daughter. If she is indeed killed, then I'll guarantee you that you'll suffer heavy xp penalties for it, and even if she doesn't you still will in my game, since it was just a really stupid thing to do. I don't care if your 14th level paladin can carve up 50+ orcs in short order - the decision is just stupid by an sort of common sense, so you will be penalized for making it. Rushing to the aid as the orcs prepare to sacrifice her to their evil god or some such is a completely different story, however. Still, it depends entirely on what sort of game you enjoy. Some people enjoy killing monsters and collecting treasure. This is known as Hack 'n Slash. Others like exploring dungeons and making maps while doing so. Such games are called Dungeon Crawls. But I like neither of those much, so I stay clear of them. PnP games don't often have sidequests because they tend to stop being sidequests and becoming real quests when the players focus on them. If players make a big issue out of something the GM thought was a footnote, then the GM will often put far more attention on it on the fly. I know I have in many situations. This is not possible in CRPGs, however, because the programmers don't know who will be playing the game or what sort of choices they will make, so they have to allow for all the possibilities in advance, and unlike the GM they cannot spontaneously add to a sideplot in an instant if the situation calls for it.

If you can find it cheap, The Summoner might not be so bad. The first game, I mean. I haven't played the sequel. Sure, it's ancient and the graphics aren't exactly perfect, but it's story is very deep and interesting IMHO. Oh, and the character development system is much better than KotOR's annoying d20 stuff. Not perfect, but better. For example, I like the defense choice between the skills Parry/Counterattack and Dodge. Dodge lets you simply evade attacks and is easier to build, but Parry allows you to both dodge the attack and use it to open the opponents the defense and then make an additional attack with your Counterattack skill. That's the sort of tactical considerations that are sorely lacking in the d20/KotOR system... Still, I'll admit that the chained attacks of The Summoner do indeed suck Fortunately they can be completely ignored.

They are both decent games, but while KotOR2 has some better implemented features (prestige classes, high level cap, weapon switch, influence system, etc.), I still find KotOR1 to be better because the story was deeper. Sure, KotOR2 has a great story, but the point is we didn't get to see it - LA had it cut. So loss for KotOR2 there As for the better rules in KotOR2, they don't matter much next to the lack of plot and story depth. It helps, but since KotOR games uses d20 as a basis, the rules will always be something I endure rather than enjoy, since I think d20 rules are horrible - I'll never play a KotOR game for that reason, so it becomes rather moot that KotOR2 implements more classes and features of d20 than KotOR1 did. At least to me.

Well, not that I don't have ideas for plot, but I'll wait with those, since this would otherwise be an incredibly long post. Instead I'll just give a list of things that I think need to be fixed in KotOR3 when compared to KotOR2. 1. When the characters aren't actually using their weapons, have them put them away - I know KotOR2 is a recycled graphics engine, but if I see one more clipping error with a characters vibroblade/whatever sticking through another peaceful groupmember or a wall, or another character sitting on a chair operating imaginary controls or computer keyboards (like Atton on the Ebon Hawk), I swear I'll scream with frustration!!! Nothing is worse than watching Kreia or whomever pierce her vibroblade straight through the pilot's seat or T3 during a cutscene without any effect whatsoever It doesn't even take that much to get rid of - just have the characters holster their guns, put their lightsabers on their belts, put the blade back in the sheath across the back, etc. when they finish a fight. That's it - problem solved. 2. Make a note of how someone must stay and guard the ship (Ebon Hawk?) and so cannot join the rest of the characters, a bit like how Atton was unavailable in the group when the Ebon Hawk crashlanded on Dxun in KotOR2 - the ship has now been stolen several times (by Revan in KotOR1 and by Handmaiden in KotOR2), and has apparently been stolen many times in its past, so I'd say someone should be tied to the ship at all times to guard it from thieves. This would be a good reason to increase your group of available companions, since you need at least one more than you can have in the active group in order to take a full group on planet exploration. Heck, even Obi-Wan was left to guard a ship in the middle of nowhere while Qui-Gon and Padme explored Tatooine... 3. New faces. Include the old faces from KotOR1+2 *only* during a session where you pick the look of Revan and the Exile during the game - they had those faces in our games, after all, so they should continue to, but create all new faces to choose from in character creation so that the new main character will have no chance to look like any of our previous protagonists. 4. Cut down on the equipment graphics. I don't mind that some headgear looks a bit like a pair of sunglasses, but most of that stuff (particularly the headgear) should be barely noticeable at all - we've never seen a Star Wars character wear any of this stuff in a movie, so it should be very limited. I also dislike that ugly muffets-with-large-red-glass-thing-across-my-eyes thing that you sometimes find - it looks far too much like something Geordi would wear in Star Trek: The Next Generation, so get rid of it. Time has passed and that headgear is obsolete and has been replaced by a new model (same stats, but no more than a handband or so now). 5. Concerning graphics, I'm actually not too disappointed with what we have now. There's room for improvement, and I'd like a bit more polish, but I don't really need the graphics to be up to the standards of Far Cry or Half-Life II or even Max Payne II. Still, Obsidian seems to be committed to a new graphics engine. Fine, great - but I'd prefer perfect lip-sync'ing and getting rid of those annoying clippling errors mentioned above to more detailed faces. Better graphics are cool, but it doesn't need to be a top priority. A few more shades to give a darker and more moody impression would be nice though, particularly in cutscenes with the Sith - everything seems be right in the spotlight in KotOR games so far, and a some more gloomy shadows could go a long way to add to the somber atmosphere of the dark side I think. 6. Many of the spaceships seem far too 'advanced' to be almost 4000 years older than the Millennium Falcon. No, we can't change the appearance of the Ebon Hawk, but at least let us see a couple of ships that really reflect the age of the setting. I mean, take a look at the panels of the Sith attack on Coruscant in the Sith War comic books and then try to tell me that the ships of KotOR are only 40-50 years after that? It's a pretty hard sell given that the Sith undoubtedly used the best ships they could find. I'd say establish that the Ebon Hawk is a rather new ship and that this the reason it keeps getting stolen (everybody wants the new, shiny ship). The same should be established for the republic ships (like the Endar Spire or the Harbinger), then let us see what some of the ancient ships of the age really look like. I don't want something from the comic books (some of those really are ugly), but at least let them reflect the age. 7. More progressive companion interaction. Conversation with your NPCs in KotOR2 was rather frustrating at times. They all talked for hours the first time, but then they had very little or nothing to say after a few dedicated conversations, except for Kreia who just couldn't shut up no matter what you did. I took a long talk with Visas early on because she was just so interesting, but after that exceedingly long and thorough conversation, going back to her was just annoying because she never had anything new to say. In KotOR1 the NPCs had separate quests or at least would offer information on the world you were currently on. I'm not saying that I want character-quests back, but at least give some variation to the NPCs depending on where the group has gone to... 8. Many seem to talk about lightsaber hilts, so I'll just voice my opinion on it, which is that while it might be nice enough, I really don't care much about it at all... For I'll I care they should feel free to to add them or not as they please, since it will make little or no difference to me. 9. For Pete's sake fix the holovids! I realize that holograms are supposed to be translucent/ghostly images you can see through of the person recorded, but it's very unsettling that I can see all of Bastila's teeth and generally the polygons from inside her head through her. Seeing through the image is fine, but seeing the character as having no substance is inexcusable! 10. I don't mind random loot per se, but it should be a lot less random than in KotOR2. A game is not balanced if you can find truly great stuff from random rolls in one game and only mediocre stuff in the next. Have the game catalogue how much uncommon/rare/whatever stuff you find and then modify the chances of finding more later based on that. Also, as other have said before, make the unique stuff unique - it's no good finding 10 x Exar Kun's warsuit or whatever, because there should be only one. If the character find it, have the game flag it for that game, so that it cannot be found by random again. If it's rolled again on the random loot table, then it should be automatically substituted for another unique item. 11. Tie the number of companions a character can have to his light side points. Dark siders don't make friends - they treat people like dirt and sacrifice them whenever convenient, so nobody trusts them. Some characters might follow such a person, because they think they are going places and they are content to be underling #6 rather than their current position. Fine, in KotOR2 characters like HK-47, Hanharr, or G0-T0 might side with such characters, while Visas and Kreia might ally in respect of the character's power, but none of the others should. Also, companions of dark siders are generally opportunists and generally cannot be trusted. The games have so far offered potential companions on the basis of friendship and admiration toward the main character. That does not fit well with dark siders, who should instead have ability to charm beasts and then perform a ritual to make them his or her underling or slave. Such beasts will serve loyally, but will be dead if defeated in combat, and of course they cannot learn skills or advance in levels. Potential companions for evil characters might include a trandoshan or a gamorran. Mandalore would join either side - he knows strength when he sees it. I'll make some suggestions on plot at some other time. Comments anyone?

Novels: Not sure. I liked the Thrawn trilogy, though I thought there was room for improvement. The New Jedi Order stuff are okay. Comics: Dark Empire I and II. Sadly Empire's End was too short and hurt the series with it's rushed finale. Sort of a bit like KotOR2

Yes, but note that this is exactly what she said - her enemies. We learn those included the Sith (which may be presumed to be Sion and Nihilus) and the Dantooine Jedi council (Dorak, Kavar, Zez-Kai-Ell). Kreia did *NOT* however say that it included any and all Jedi!! You seem to be proceeding on the basis that she did mean that, but there is no basis for that conclusion - it is unsupported by the events of KotOR2, so whoever writes the plot for KotOR3 can presume pretty much whatever he or she wants to. Sure, Kreia wanted the jedi council dead, but that doesn't matter since she's already killed them. Therefore it is a non-factor in the continuing plot. I strikes me as rather odd that you first state correctly that endings of KotOR2 cannot be presumed to have taken place and then proceed to automatically presume the opposite. No, those events need not have taken place, but they can have - it depends completely on whatever the writers of the next chapter prefer. Indeed, having them not be jedi would be the greater sin, because meeting a non-jedi Atton after you made him into a jedi in the last game will have people protesting, while meeting a jedi Atton after you decided not to train can be simply overruled with a comment saying that "oh, but Visas trained him after the events of the last game" or similar. If they prefer to have all the KotOR2 companions be jedi now, then they can do that, even if they were never trained by the Exile - they can just assume that Mira, Atton, Bao-Dur, Handmaiden/Disciple were either trained by the Exile before he/she left for the unknown reasons or else that they were trained afterwards by Visas. Poof - instant multiple jedi. Besides, we *know* that the companions have the potential because you could indeed train them. I dare say that if the KotOR2 companions make any sort of appearance in KotOR3, then it's more likely to be as jedi than anything else, since they can either have been trained by the Exile in the last game or by Visas after that. That covers more possibilities than the scenario you seem to suggest. You might not like it, but there is no doubt it covers more potentiality. Also, when you reject the mere possibilty of any sort of council, I think you're overinterpreting the ending of KotOR2 to unfounded extremes. If KotOR3 is set, say, 10 years after KotOR2, then surely there will be a council in some form. I would agree that we cannot assume much of anything in KotOR3, though, but then that's just the point - since we just don't know, your presumption of there being no council is just as unfounded as anything else. I also think a lot of this discussion has overlooked the students. A lot of masters and padawans may have died on Katarr, but I dare say they would not have brought the students - the young children still learning the basics of the force - to a meeting where the decision to fight the Sith is being decided. It is far more likely that those young students stayed home on Coruscant with their teachers and continued their training. Those students could certainly form the foundation of a new emerging jedi order. Indeed, I have this feeling that KotOR3 is set a few years after KotOR2 and that the new main character is one of these young students becoming a padawn learner during the beginning of the game. I could see the genders and alignments of both Revan and the Exile being set by the student taking lessons in jedi history early in the game under Brianna...

Well, I completely agree with your reasoning, but I doubt it's going to happen. Star Wars RPGs are stuck in d20 rules by virtue of business deals between Lucasarts and Wizards of the Coast (who publish the tabletop RPG), so that's probably that. Indeed, it might even be that the finesse feats were forcibly introduced in KotOR2 despite excelling with their absense in KotOR1 because their removal was a potential infraction of the d20 rules. I should hasten to say that I don't know that all, but it is possible. In fact, the whole Two-handed/Double-bladed vs. Single-handed weapon thing needs a major overhaul. It's a popular myth to think that having a second weapon in your "off" hand (or a double-weapon utilizing both) will allow you more attacks, but anyone who has bothered to simply watch the Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul fight in Episode I know it's just a myth. Yes, using double/multiple weapons have advantages, but they sure don't double your attack rate - anyone thinking it would should try making a few mock attacks with wooden swords or similar, because they'll find that it's actually really hard to coordinate those attacks without the swords hitting each other, let alone accidentally striking yourself (which is ill adviced with a lightsaber...). As you might figure from my reply, I don't like the d20 system much. In fact, I outright hate it - worst thing to happen to RPGs in a decade IMO I'd take WEG's Star Wars system any day of the week over WOTC's forced and inflexible classes and levels, or even better a Star Wars system based on the GURPS rules. But... it's not going to happen. I play KotOR games because I like the drama and character depth. I *don't* play because of the d20 rules! I play in *spite* of the d20 rules! I don't enjoy the d20 rules so much as I endure them... and it's not always easy

Yes, I know what you mean. I was a lightsider too and had a good deal of trouble with him. Even after "cheating" by reading the Influence guide, I had to take so many dark side points to gain full influence with HK-47 that I was never able to regain my Light Side Mastery status. If I replay the game, I'll make a note of going to Dantooine from Telos, but only completing the Jedi Enclave bit before immediately heading on to Nar Shaada, so I can get HK-47 in the group as soon as possible. IIRC there are few not so LS-devastating influence gains for him on Dantooine, and I'm betting that taking them so soon will mean that you can regain your Light Side Mastery again before the game ends (and I seem to recall someone mentioning that he gains influence if you show pity on the thieving rodian on Dantooine even though his comments suggests otherwise). Haven't tried it, though...

And I'm still not convinced that he was weakened in any way. He just tried to drain you dry... and failed because there was nothing to drain. Nothing more. That gave the PC a chance to fight him, but it doesn't mean that Nihilus should be absolutely incompetent with a lightsaber or the only Sith Lord that can't spam Force Lightning. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Precisely. Also, while Nihilus would be unable to drain the Exile, nothing prevents him from draining Visas or Mandalore... or even his own crew. I'd like to see the cutscene and then immediately upon ending him let him use the Master Drain Force power on pretty much everyone but the Exile to replenish the power he lost by trying to drain the Exile. And then you begin the combat round! Come to think of it, Visas and Mandalore should be notably weaker in those fights anyway, as they have long been drained by the Exile without knowing, particularly Visas... Anyway, I was also wondering if the restored content will affect how things turn out with Atris. We know that there are some sound-bits for her replacing Kreia during the final game, but it may not be possible to restore her as the potential Darth Traya if there are too few. I think the idea of letting her take that position dropped during production rather than cut along with other content toward the end. The restoration team might know this better than me... (An evil Atris could be cool, though...) However, there was also an idea to let Atris become a group member toward the end of the game IIRC, which seems more likely to restore for me. I'd like that option, though it might be rather redundant. I mean, Visas and Mandalore will still be forced companions on the Ravager, and no companions are allowed on Malachor 5, which means you'd get to use Atris only during the attack on Citadel Station... But I'd actually prefer that option to just letting her sit on Telos with a thumb up her nose while the planet is under attack. That just seems so... silly. Another thing I've noticed in the sound files for the return to Telos and the confrontation with Atris are some comments by the Handmaiden about how it is possible to defeat an opponent without killing him or her. I assume this was to be an option for fighting the handmaiden sisters without killing them that was never implemented. Given that you never fight the sisters in the game, we can't know whether these were comments the Handmaiden made to the Exile or thought to herself, but I tend to presume the latter given that she is referred to as a "slayer of her own kin" in some of the similarly cut sound files when the companions confront Darth Traya. Has the restoration team made any decisions on these issues?

What would we argue about if we did get a clear answer? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah exactly... Besides, we all know that Arren Kae wasn't revived as Kreia but as Darth Nihilus...

In the end, I suppose this topic has to remain inconclusive. Not because there haven't been excellent either way, but it seems that while there is no clear proof - no "smoking gun" - to establish that Kreia is indeed Arren Kae, there is still a lot of clues that infers it is so. I have this odd idea that maybe Obsidian don't even know the answer themselves. Maybe it was indeed considered at one point that Kreia might be Kae, but there was uncertainty as to whether it would be a good idea or not (too much like the Luke-Vader thing), and so the idea ceased being developed, though the clues to suggest it remain. I find that actually fits the game - or just Kreia's character - extremely well. After all, what is Kreia if not secretive and mysterious? You could call her a liar (which she frequently is), but there is no doubt she knows more than she admits. Trouble is that when she does tell you something, you still can't take her word for it. She really reminds me of Garak on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, who was also a very secretive and insidious character claiming to be nothing but a simple Cardassian tailor (or as he put it, "Plain, simple Garak"...). It was a lot of fun to watch his manipulations over the years, not least because he never truly lied - there was always just some element of truth to his comments. Like when his "friend" Dr. Bashir has discovered lots of stories about him and wants to know the truth... Bashir: "I want to know, of all the stories you told me, which ones were true, and which ones weren't?" Garak: "My dear doctor, they're all true." Bashir: "Even the lies?" Garak: "Especially the lies!" Sorry, don't mean to turn this into a Star Trek-thing, but isn't that exactly the sort of character Kreia is? Well, she is a little less playful and a lot more nefarious about it, but otherwise she seemed very similar to me, although she didn't get any lines nearly as good as Garak's. I was really waiting for something along the lines of Garak's statement that, "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences!" or my favorite: "The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination..." :D For Kreia it seems obvious that mystery and deception were key words. She was ultimately a manipulator and a traitor, but naturally that couldn't be revealed until the very end, and even then we aren't allowed to know all her secrets. Maybe Obsidian just decided that leaving the Kreia=Kae question open would really fit well with Kreia's deceptiveness. I tend to agree with them. I mean, just look at what it has spawned here.... :D I almost hope we never get a clear answer either way. Almost...

I'd like multiple paths in games too, but the fact is that it just isn't cost-effective to do it. Sure it was great in the Fallout series (and a lot of people behind that work at Obsidian now), but there is an important distinction - in Fallout all the dialogue was text only (except the very few "talking heads"), so doing an alternate was mostly a question of writing some extra comments in there and perhaps a few more graphics. That's not the case anymore, since all dialogue is expected to be spoken, which makes it very expensive to produce. The same is true for graphics and programming, which is also far more demanding today. Computer games have become an industry, and what used to be three to eight guys playing around with a game has become monster groups of 20+ people working full time for more than a year just to produce one game. That makes it for to costly to produce stuff in the games that players won't see - the most will be a few sideplots here and there for replay value, and this is a major reason why most CRPGs today take a "one size fit all" approach even if there are supposed to be different choices and endings in a game - not, for example, how the light/dark side choice is forced only very late in both KotOR games, even though it's best for the player to make that choice as soon as possible. This happens for a reason. You and me both... I'd like that too, but I hear Lucasarts don't like to let people mod their games, so that's probably totally out Obsidian's hands. Still, I'm confident the modding community won't let that stop them This is unlikely for the same reasons given above - if you being as jedi you can still 'fall' to the dark side during the game, so there is no reason why the devs should bother to write a sith academy. They're undoubtedly supposed to feel like the movies, since that is what the largest demographic will resond positively too. You cannot get rid of Revan or the Exile, though, since KotOR3 is probably supposed to close the story for at least Revan. I'm quite certain you'll be playing a new jedi, though, as playing Revan or Exile from the beginning (as some have suggested) would make the game seem less accessible to people who have not played chapthers 1 and 2. I wouldn't mind a game like that, but not as a KotOR title. It wouldn't be "Knights of the Old Republic" in that case - these are games where jedi (and sith) are at the center. Other games can go in other directions, though. Having a bounty hunter ally could be fun, though (and no, I don't count Mira in KotOR2 - she may have called herself a bounty hunter, but she was no Boba Fett.) Well, since I do want to see Revan and the Exile, I'm obviously to agree with you. To each his own, I guess... Some of what you suggest might be worked into the plot, though.

First of, I'm surprised you seem so hellbent on killing off every single jedi in existence. Why is that? Surely there a few left. It's also seems rather double standard to demand that every single on of them is dead and then make a particular exception for Jolee just because you like him. I like Jolee too, but other people like Nomi or Juhani or whomever and your preferences is no better (or worse) than anyone else's... nor is mine. Also, it's similar double standard to say that Atton, Bao-Dur, etc. cannot be presumed to be jedi because that is player choice and then proceed to call Revan, Bastila and the Exile Jedi - if you chose dark side endings so far then they are all Sith and not Jedi, and that choice is just as legitimate as turning your companions in KotOR2 into jedi - they can all be presumed to be jedi just as much as Revan, Bastila and the Exile can be presumed to be light side. Finally, you're reading what you want to read from my post and not what I wrote. I specifically said "knights-made-masters due to necessity", which more than implies a group of very inexperienced jedi working together to reestablish the order in some form and who *call* themselves the high counsel. They would, however, be neither masters or high council in the way those terms would be taken before the Sith War or similar. Yes, I incorrectly mentioned master Arca when I meant to say master Thon (the big ox-like creature that trained Nomi). Mea culpa. I have apparently also mistaken the reference to which Vima was meast in the source mentioned. Still not sure, but I'll take your word for it. Still, if she is Vima's grandchild, then it does seem to suggest that Vima Sunrider must have lived through the events were talking about... I'd pretty much go along with that. I'd still say there might be a few jedi left, but not to the extent that they can put up much or indeed any king of a fight if the Sith began a concentrated invasion of the republic. If KotOR1 ended with the dark side ending, then Jolee is dead and neither Revan nor Bastila are jedi. If KotOR2 ended with the dark side ending then neither is the Exile (or he cannot be called a jedi since he just steals the force from others - if there is no force to steal, then he'll have no jedi powers at all), so if we're going to take things to the level you suggest then the game must be renamed since there are likely no jedi - no knights - left at all, unless you suggest that the light side endings of the previous games, particularly the first, should just be assumed and forced on the game - personally I wouldn't want that (though I do tend to play light side...). Kreia hated the force - she didn't much care about the struggle between the jedi and the sith. And the game is called "Knights of the Old Republic", so we must have jedi *knights* in it.

Very nice site. Looks like excellent work so far. Already bookmarked the site for future reference. Thanks for making an effort for making the lost material available in some form when it sadly was not included in the game. Your efforts are appreciated. Influence gained!

Being a powerful jedi "warrior" does not mean she was a guardian. Yoda is a Jedi Consular, yet he has been called a "great warrior" (by Luke) and proved it too against Dooku (and likely will again in Episode III...). Besides, given that Kreia was cast from the force as both Revan and the Exile were, that doesn't mean she can't have been a guardian in the past. I mean, Revan is also a noted jedi warrior and the Exile a great general. By that logic they would both be jedi guardians, yet their classes are selectable in the game, so I wouldn't read too much into that...

In the interest of putting out flames... This whole "there is/isn't a Jedi Council" is starting to become very... confrontational. Remember where anger leads... In fact, there is merit to both sides of the argument. I'll go over both. Arguments why there is no council: You have to look at how Jedi have been steadily dying at the time up the end of KotOR2. Not everybody may know this, having not read the Tales of the Jedi comic books (particularly the Sith War), but many, many, many jedi died during that war. Now before you go ahead and dismiss that as unrelated, you should note that these games were built on the basis of those comic books, and events from them are frequently referenced in the games. Indeed, the first five issues told two stories - "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beast-Riders of Onderon" and "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider". When those five originals were reprinted as a trade-paperback, it was retitled "Knights of the Old Republic" years before the first KotOR game came out. And note those names - Ulic, Nomi, and Onderon should all names familiar to KotOR fanatics. So consider these losses to the jedi over the last 50 or so years: - Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma begin the Sith War. They convert many jedi students and them to kill their jedi masters. Many, many masters are killed, and by the end of the war only about 1000 jedi are left. - The Mandalorian Wars (about 35 years later). The Jedi are split on whether to get involved in the Mandalorian invasions given their failing numbers in recent years. It splits the order and many jedi leave to fight the Mandalorians, leaving the order forever either to be killed in the war or be converted to the Sith by Revan. - Jedi Civil War (KotOR1). Revan and Malak wage war on the jedi, hunting them down and attacking the republic. When Revan is captured, Malak continues to hunt down or convert the jedi in his place - The Sith Lords (KotOR2). With Revan and Malak gone, the Sith are in disarray and fight among themselves. It doesn't help the jedi much, however, because shortly after the Jedi find themselves hunted down and killed by the Sith whenever they go. To stand united against the problem, the remaining jedi gather on Katarr only to be killed when Darth Nihilus drains the planet of all life. The few remaining jedi spread and hide to draw the insidious Sith out even as the Exchange offers huge rewards for captured Jedi. Soon there are no known jedi left, and the remaining jedi masters from the council on Dantooine are killed soon after too. Conclusion: If there are any jedi left, then they are indeed few. Arguments for there still being a council:

So do a lot of people, but that's what Star Wars: Battlefront is for...

Game system: GURPS - no question. The Star Trek ICON system (by Last Unicorn Games) had some merit, as does White Wolf's Storyteller system, particularly in Exalted, but GURPS is without question the best system around - no restrictive, stupid rules and no inflexible class-system that won't allow me to create the character I want to. In GURPS I can build exactly the character I want to. Campaign: Well, I've been around a lot of games, so it's difficult to say. My classic campaign (which I still run with AD&D 2e rules) is Mystara (the original OD&D Known World campaign). For atmospheric and tense role-playing, however, there is no second to Call of Cthulhu. I like science fiction too, so I've enjoyed role-playing both Star Trek and Star Wars games, no matter which rules they use (though I like the current rules for both games least of all...). Ars Magica is also an excellent game, and I'm currently enjoying White Wolf's Exalted game a lot as a player.

I usually play wizards or mages for some reason. I like to play them as extremely secretive and complex with lots and lots of innuendo, a little like Kreia in KotOR2. However, the difference from Kreia is that my characters are rarely evil or selfish, they're just complex and annoyed by immaturity of the world around them. In that sense they are a bit more like Gandalf, but without the tolerant and accepting grand-father side. In role-playing terms this frequently means that the other players are constantly uncertain about what my wizard is up to and whether he can be trusted. I used an old wizard of mine as a recurring NPC in a campaign where I'm GM for a while, and I ended up using him a lot more than I planned because the players really liked how I played him. Must have done something right, I guess... I don't like playing evil characters, though. Somehow they are just too boring - there is no challenge in behaving like a complete jerk to everyone - it quickly becomes a bit too much like Richard III to me in those situations, so I tend to avoid them, because charactes with no ethics or conscience are just plain boring. This is also why I didn't like playing Revan as a DS male in KotOR1 - he was just a jerk to everyone, while DS male Revan was burdened and complex.