Update #52: Monk!

[Rostere]

I just dropped by to say thank you to the Obsidian crew for making such a good interpretation of the "Monk" class. It is really well thought- out and deflects all the current criticism of for example the incomparably stupid D&D Monk. To me at least it also looks as if you went for a more "flagellant" type of monk Basically this more intelligent approach to design is what I like the most about Obsidian's games. I hope that when designing future classes and features, you are not afraid of criticizing the tropes which everyone take for granted and come up with own twists and explanations of why things are as they are.

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

[Tsuga C]

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63765-update-52-monk/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1329978

 

Partially answered by the man himself a page back.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Tsuga C

[Greensleeve]

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

[Lephys]

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

What kind of businesses are the only kind in the P:E world?

 

... ... ... ...

 

...

 

...

 

"Soul" proprietorships.

[Gumbercules]

The next time Obsidian has to skip a weekly update, you should still put out a quick update that contains a single sentence in big, bold letters:

 

All classes are powered by soul magic (yes, even the fighters).

[Greensleeve]

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

What kind of businesses are the only kind in the P:E world?

 

... ... ... ...

 

...

 

...

 

"Soul" proprietorships.

 

 

I...

Bu..

What..

I don't even...

 

Not sure if I should offer applause or just cry.  

[Tsuga C]

Not sure if I should offer applause or just cry.

It's just Lephys being Lephys, much akin to the preposterous nature of the platypus. Don't bother asking why, just accept that such is the nature of life when the Creator has a sense of whimsy.

[Lephys]

Not sure if I should offer applause or just cry.

 

You could always try both, 8D!

 

 

 

It's just Lephys being Lephys, much akin to the preposterous nature of the platypus. Don't bother asking why, just accept that such is the nature of life when the Creator has a sense of whimsy.

 

It's true. Want more evidence as to the Creator's sense of whimsy? I was born on April Fool's Day. True story.

 

(Sorry for the brief derailment, but I feel like an occasional 50ccs of humor is good for forum morale. Also... I can't seem to help myself. Besides... a momentary derailment is just a figurative train doing an awesome trick, right? Like the X-games... but for figurative trains.)

[Rostere]

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63765-update-52-monk/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1329978

 

Partially answered by the man himself a page back.

 

 

Hm yes, my post seems a bit silly now in hindsight. Maybe I should read more than just the first post before posting in a thread.

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

[rjshae]

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

 

Yes they could... but should they? Magic is more interesting when it is a little bit mysterious. You've then got schools of philosophical thought on the topic, but no exact science.

[Lephys]

Yes they could... but should they? Magic is more interesting when it is a little bit mysterious. You've then got schools of philosophical thought on the topic, but no exact science.

 

 

Exactly. The first human to discover how to make sparks and start a fire may not have understood friction and combustibility, but he knew how to make fires. Then he knew that fire isn't fun to touch, but that it provides heat and light (though still not why). Then that it burns things up (though not exactly how).

 

If a Monk chooses to draw power from redirected physical trauma, maybe the makeup of that energy is different from the makeup of a Wizard's energy. The effect of what a Monk does is the effect of what a Monk does. It hardly relies upon an explanation of HOW that happens. The bigger question of WHY it happens, can never be answered.

 

Why does lightning occur? We know HOW it occurs, but not why charges and particles do what they do and form a bolt of lightning. It just does. So, if someone figured out they can rub their socks on the carpet and then touch someone to produce a tiny lightning bolt, then they can do that. They can even trial-and-error into a much greater knowledge of how to control it more (how many foot rubs against the floor, what type of socks work best, etc.), without comprehending how electricity, itself, works.

 

Sure, it'd be kinda nice to know how soul powers work, in a way. But, they hardly demand explanation.

[Nonek]

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

 

 

Good question, I suppose it could be a learned thing, long gruelling hours plumbing the depths of ones soul in meditation, enduring greater levels of pain or sparring with ones brother monks. Prayer and a calling for the cleric, a gradual strengthening of ones faith in their deity, and a learning of accepted theology. Or perhaps it's an inborn thing, some souls are born suited to certain pursuits. Before that warrior pioneered his form of straddling the edge of death, the souls of born monks were lost and aimless, dockside bruisers with an unhealthy appetite for pain or assassins looking into their victims eyes for a clue to their strange urges.

[Rostere]

 

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

 

Yes they could... but should they? Magic is more interesting when it is a little bit mysterious. You've then got schools of philosophical thought on the topic, but no exact science.

 

 

I'm not saying that they should give us a full explanation, just that they don't forget about these questions. Obviously people in the game world are going to ask themselves these questions. They haven't neccesarily got the right answers, but they are bound to have SOME explanation. There has also got to be some explorable limitations in the game world - there has got to be some person who tried to combine "wizard magic" and "monk magic". Maybe it's perfectly possible, and the result is what constitutes a multi- class character. Maybe it's possible but not really meaningful in any way.

 

To address one possible explanation, to me it seems that if abilities were just dependent on the "strength" of your soul, we are left with some undesirable logical side effects. That would either mean that a cleric suddenly training to be a monk would say that "oh, I know I eventually will be able to do all the soul- demanding monk stuff because my soul is sufficiently strong. I just need to get the hang of this monk training" or "Bah, all my soul power is used up on my cleric training. I better get a stronger soul in order to absorb any monk training". I would rather prefer that gaining class soul abilities meant refining a certain aspect of your soul. Of course, maybe no actual people in the game world know what exactly is the case but I'd like the devs to make up their minds on things like this. I'm not trying to say I want to know the answer to everything by the end of the game, I'm really a fan of keeping things vague but I'd like the devs to have all the facts in a top- secret dev file so that they can achieve thematical coherency in the story.

[Lasweetlife]

I really don't understand the antipathy towards the decision to include a monk class. I personally dislike the fighter class because it tends to be too "generic" and "unimaginative" but I don't begrudge a game for including them. As has been said before, if you don't like the monk class, don't create a monk character or pick up a monk companion. Furthermore, PE is a purely single player game, so we don't even have to worry about other players' preference for a class we don't like. Chill pills all around.

[Sensuki]

The design is indeed very flexible.

[Sugarjaye]

_{That's an interesting idea for a monk. Also I love the concepts for the cultures. The Vailian Republic is definately my fav so far.}

Edited May 9, 2013 by Sugarjaye

[Lephys]

I'm not saying that they should give us a full explanation, just that they don't forget about these questions. Obviously people in the game world are going to ask themselves these questions. They haven't neccesarily got the right answers, but they are bound to have SOME explanation. There has also got to be some explorable limitations in the game world - there has got to be some person who tried to combine "wizard magic" and "monk magic". Maybe it's perfectly possible, and the result is what constitutes a multi- class character. Maybe it's possible but not really meaningful in any way.

 

To address one possible explanation, to me it seems that if abilities were just dependent on the "strength" of your soul, we are left with some undesirable logical side effects. That would either mean that a cleric suddenly training to be a monk would say that "oh, I know I eventually will be able to do all the soul- demanding monk stuff because my soul is sufficiently strong. I just need to get the hang of this monk training" or "Bah, all my soul power is used up on my cleric training. I better get a stronger soul in order to absorb any monk training". I would rather prefer that gaining class soul abilities meant refining a certain aspect of your soul. Of course, maybe no actual people in the game world know what exactly is the case but I'd like the devs to make up their minds on things like this. I'm not trying to say I want to know the answer to everything by the end of the game, I'm really a fan of keeping things vague but I'd like the devs to have all the facts in a top- secret dev file so that they can achieve thematical coherency in the story.

 

 

Fair enough. I'd like to think it's more like mastering juggling, only not with your arms. More of a mental thing. I don't know how I move my arm. I just move it, and it moves. My brain takes care of that. So, going from there, I then must work really hard to master juggling 3 balls, using my ability to move my arm. Then, I might move on to 4. Then 5. It's going to take a while. And I can only practice SO much, so, I can't learn to juggle 3 balls AND master the throwing knife in the same week.

 

Granted, an explanation would still be nice, like you said, for coherence in the lore, and that still doesn't address multi-class type scenarios. As you could feasibly master juggling 3 balls, THEN focus on mastering your aim with throwing knives.

 

But, my point was, you're using your arms for both skills, but they're different skills that take different practice and different efforts and movements to master/perform. So, soul energy is probably kind of like arms. You can do lots of different things with it, but they're all really different ways of using it, rather than entirely different energies. Or, rather, the energy can be thought of as the end result of the effort with the tool (arms). With juggling, you end up with a ring of spinning balls in the air. With throwing knives, you end up with accurate knives stuck in targets at a distance. You can't use juggling skill/practice to suddenly be able to hit a target at 30 feet with a knife, and you can't use knife-throwing practice to suddenly be able to juggle 3 balls perfectly, even though your arms do both. 8P

 

*shrug*. Just my take on it.

[NerdBoner]

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63765-update-52-monk/page-7?do=findComment&comment=1329978

 

Partially answered by the man himself a page back.

 

 

Hm yes, my post seems a bit silly now in hindsight. Maybe I should read more than just the first post before posting in a thread.

 

 

Now we arrive at the next important question, which is where these Monk powers come from and if/how they are tied to a specific religion and organization.

 

See above and SOULS! Answer to everything in PE. 

 

 

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

 

I don't think even you realize how silly your questions are...

 

in the game as in life there are multiple disciplines that require study, time and dedicated training. You asking why a cleric can't use monk abilities is like asking why a catholic priest can't just switch professions and become an MMA champion.

 

I'm under the impression that you think the soul is this precious little light source inside the PC's chest that he pinches in order to get soul juice to power abilities he purchases at the local market....I'd wager it is a bit more complex than that.

[Gumbercules]

It seems to me like class specialization is probably based on personality + effort. To be a monk, for example, you need to be the kind of person who is willing to suffer a great deal of pain, and then from there you learn to use your soul magic to redirect that pain. Meanwhile, a cleric needs to be a super-believer, a wizard needs to be willing to sift through long, boring tomes and memorize a bunch of stuff, a rogue needs to be sneaky, etc. So the manner in which a character develops their soul magic depends on what they believe and what they're best at. A cleric that one day just decided to become a monk would be unsuccessful unless they were genuinely enthusiastic about mortification of the flesh.

 

At least, that's my guess.

[nikolokolus]

Perhaps they (those who created the concept) tried to show that the Jxamitl are alien to Americans/Western Europeans hence the strange name and the mix of different 'alien' influences (Mesoamerican, Eastern European or even Chinese).

 

The name Ixamitl (not the dress so much) instantly made me think of some words in the Basque language.  Not to say that Obsidian was inspired by Basque culture, but that's the fun I guess in creating cultures from scratch; they can stoke peoples' imaginations in different ways.

Edited May 9, 2013 by nikolokolus

[Sedrefilos]

 

Nice update. So far it looks like:

Dyrwood - anglo-saxon\germanic

Valian Republics - Italic city-states(?)

Aedyr Empire - greco-roman

Jxamitl - slavonic

Yeah! But ixamitl in my opionion have some mix between slavic and east cultures( like 30%/70%). Even word  Ixamitl is not quiete slavic. I mean, i`m slavic and  just cant spell this word in slavic manner, it`s just dont fit.

 

 

As one mentioned before, Ixamitl look like Balkan (southern mostly) people of late ottoman period. Traditional greek clothing looks like these a lot (almost identical).

[PrimeJunta]

Yes, but "souls" is a rather shallow explanation, isn't it? I'm sure they can come up with something better and more specific. For example, Monks and Clerics (and I guess everyone else) use the power of souls, but in which ways are their usages different? How is the Monk and Cleric training different? Why can't a powerful cleric suddenly use Monk abilities? Why not something in between? The existence of classes would imply that the different powers of the soul are discrete(-ish). There has got to be a something which explains this (although hopefully people in the game world won't know much about it).

I think JES answered that rather nicely. Using your soul's powers takes a lot of dedication and training. A wizard's training is not like a monk's or a cleric's. A monk can't suddenly start using a wizard's skills any more than a martial arts master can suddenly start using a master watchmaker's skills. It takes a half a lifetime to become a master watchmaker or a martial arts master, even if both skillsets are "powered" by the same thing.

 

(I'm liking monks a lot more after that explanation BTW.)

[aratuk]

So, either this is the most culturally sensitive, mature collection of people on an internet message board in all time, or mods have been assiduously deleting jokes about pimps.

 

Maybe a little of both.

[J. Trudel]

About the culture concept, I can't decide if I like them or not. On one side I believe it is important to feel that cultures have different style. However, what I think isn't quite there is the fact that the different cultures doesn't seem to come from the same era. Some characters feels like they come from antiquity, other from medieval times and other from the renaissance era. 

 

In my humble opinions, the game would be better with styles coming from the same era, for example : Medieval northern Europe, Arabia, and Asia. All have very different style but all looks like they come of the same era (which is no surprise considering the fact that they actually did ). 

 

Regarding the Monk, this character concept is amazing ! From what I read this character seems to be a high maintenance one, are there any options which can make him a bit lower maintenance ? 

[PrimeJunta]

I think the "different eras" look makes perfect sense for P:E's Conquistador premise. The Vailians are clearly Renaissance, whereas the others are more "antiquity." This mirrors the New World in the 1500's.