The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[Soulmojo]

You know i can't shake the feeling that all of the problems with healing, healing bonuses and clear immortality, is rooted in the fact that there is no limit in combat what a character can endure.

 

Most of the problems could be resolved if we introduce the endurance/health system we had in pillars 1.

 

That way you have a clear limitation to character survivability. All 'cannot die' effect can be changed to 'cannot be knocked out' effect, but still take hp damage untill the character dies. It would shift the focus from healing to stack real survivability, since you cannot be immortal with enough sustained healing.

 

In PoE1 the real issue with that system was the limit on camp rest and camp supplies. Since this limit is not present here, it would function adequately.

 

I think this is the only way.

 

+++

We have medical supplies in this game. It would not be out of reach to introduce a first aid or medical skill where a trained characted can heal hp and cure injuries with med supplies. With it you could limit immersion breaking resting even more. And this would support the endurance/hp system.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Maxzero]

Personnaly in this game, I think this is a mistake to create abilities with Cost 4.

 

The majority simply not worth it.

 

3 need to be the maximum.

 

If not :

 

1) You stay with 4 ressources, and boost few of these kind of abilities (few are already broken). BUT high risk of imbalance.

2) You stay with 4 ressources, without boost. But in this case, all 1 or 2 cost abilities are often always better.

 

3 = 1 + 1 + 1 = three actions. The only reward is to do a difference faster if damage are really stronger. Not always the case.

 

We also can see that like a gift to single class. Because HoF 4 ressources...

 

-------------

 

I have suddenly an image. An idea. Why do not Brilliant (inspiration level 3) down the cost of ressources of 1 ?

 

Chanter do his chant. Briliant activated.

 

Cost 1 = Cost 0.

Cost 2 = Cost 1.

Cost 3 = Cost 2.

Cost 4 = Cost 3.

 

Actually that's not a bad idea.

 

The reason Brilliance is so powerful is because resources for weapon classes is so limited.

 

Still makes it a great buff and keeps it's theme but without such a dramatic power shift.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Maxzero

[PIRI]

 

Personnaly in this game, I think this is a mistake to create abilities with Cost 4.

 

The majority simply not worth it.

 

3 need to be the maximum.

 

If not :

 

1) You stay with 4 ressources, and boost few of these kind of abilities (few are already broken). BUT high risk of imbalance.

2) You stay with 4 ressources, without boost. But in this case, all 1 or 2 cost abilities are often always better.

 

3 = 1 + 1 + 1 = three actions. The only reward is to do a difference faster if damage are really stronger. Not always the case.

 

We also can see that like a gift to single class. Because HoF 4 ressources...

 

-------------

 

I have suddenly an image. An idea. Why do not Brilliant (inspiration level 3) down the cost of ressources of 1 ?

 

Chanter do his chant. Briliant activated.

 

Cost 1 = Cost 0.

Cost 2 = Cost 1.

Cost 3 = Cost 2.

Cost 4 = Cost 3.

Actually that's not a bad idea.

 

The reason Brilliance is so powerful is because resources for weapon classes is so limited.

 

Still makes it a great buff and keeps it's theme but without such a dramatic power shift.

All druid/wizard/priest resources cost 1. Think about it.

[theBalthazar]

All druid/wizard/priest resources cost 1. Think about it. 

 

 

True good point. Infinite meteor shower : p

 

If cost is 1, effect of reduction = 0

So with 1=1, if we want reward "cost 1", we must add a little thing.

 

Cost 1 = Cost 1. PL+1

Cost 2 = Cost 1. PL+1

Cost 3 = Cost 2. PL+1

Cost 4 = Cost 3. PL+1

 

Side Notes :

* Can be used under 30s, it is very interresting and not totally broken.

* Cost 1 (with only 1 ressource) stay with a little advantage. Eventually it can be PL+2 but I start slowly...

* A theorycrafter can stay interresting by this, we have not "killed" the inspiration. HoF 3 rage I take, Twinned arrow reduced I take etc.

Edited May 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

Ok so you can cast any "Wall" type spell and it won't break stealth. Although only 1 of them does decent enough dmg.

 

This allowed me to kill three Dank Spores without ever entering combat, which was a bit cheaty. On the other hand it serves them right for being immobile.

[divjak]

i dont know which game you are playing if you think that brilliant is so good, at this point i think you guys fail so hard to cast appropriate spells for the situation, that you need brilliant to restock.

I have never been in a position where I really needed brilliant because most fights were over way before i had real resource shortage, especially since you can already get resources back by empowering

 

As I see it Brilliant  is most useful to chanter itself, basically to get phrases quicker, so you can cast invocations more often, and without it it becomes useless, 7  phrases for quick and insightful, buff that can get by almost any other class 

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[theBalthazar]

Honestly, infinite ressources is not very appealing to me.

 

Per encounter is already a safe pool. 5 x FoD sometimes... means nothing... You know ?

 

Like you say : Empowering can already be used to REFILL your resssources. It is an argument... against yourself : p

 

So... I prefer an other approach where used is used, but with less spend.

Edited May 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

i dont know which game you are playing if you think that brilliant is so good, at this point i think you guys fail so hard to cast appropriate spells for the situation, that you need brilliant to restock.

I have never been in a position where I really needed brilliant because most fights were over way before i had real resource shortage, especially since you can already get resources back by empowering

 

As I see it Brilliant  is most useful to chanter itself, basically to get phrases quicker, so you can cast invocations more often, and without it it becomes useless, 7  phrases for quick and insightful, buff that can get by almost any other class 

 

In group play its probably not, but when playing solo with a multiclassed Chanter it can trivialise the game once you get it. Sure, it only comes at a high level but there's a lot of game to complete at max level when you play solo.

[divjak]

Honestly, infinite ressources is not very appealing to me.

 

Per encounter is already a safe pool. 5 x FoD sometimes... means nothing... You know ?

 

Like you say : Empowering can already be used to REFILL your resssources. It is an argument... against yourself : p

 

So... I prefer an other approach where used is used, but with less spend.

no, what i am saying its not gamebreaking like you guys are  saying, because you  can  already get your resources back by empover in a pinch.

You get this stuff late, where already other classes have lots of resources,  so it's a moot point.

Really,  brilliance is used like this.

You spend 7 phrases at the start so for the next 30-45 seconds(depends on intelligence) you get your phrases quicker.

Its a trade of, long-term you get more phrases, but at the start you could used paralyze, damage, or something that would have more impact in battle.

You basically neuter your self at the  start as a  chanter,  so you can be stronger later

I had brilliant, and i found i only used it sometimes, if i had nothing to do(Ie fight was already under control), not really something that would  turn the tide 

[divjak]

 

i dont know which game you are playing if you think that brilliant is so good, at this point i think you guys fail so hard to cast appropriate spells for the situation, that you need brilliant to restock.

I have never been in a position where I really needed brilliant because most fights were over way before i had real resource shortage, especially since you can already get resources back by empowering

 

As I see it Brilliant  is most useful to chanter itself, basically to get phrases quicker, so you can cast invocations more often, and without it it becomes useless, 7  phrases for quick and insightful, buff that can get by almost any other class 

 

In group play its probably not, but when playing solo with a multiclassed Chanter it can trivialise the game once you get it. Sure, it only comes at a high level but there's a lot of game to complete at max level when you play solo.

 

game is not balanced around  solo, also i am not sure  for multiclassed solo since  you are getting it at level 19, basically ukaizo, yeah first you need  to wait some of your phrases till you get it so you can cast, then you are at 0 phrases again,  all that time  you could already kill, paralyze,  summon, or watever

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[JerekKruger]

game is not balanced around  solo, also i am not sure  for multiclassed, yeah first you need  to wait some of your phrases till you get it so you can cast, then you are at 0 phrases again,  all that time  you could already kill, paralyze,  summon, or watever

 

You start combat with either 6 or 7 phrases at max level (it seems to vary for no particular reason). I can't remember exactly how many the Brilliant invocation costs, but with 7 you definitely have enough to cast it straight away and with 6 you have to wait at most 3s (as a Troubadour). You then spam something like the Fighter's Charge ability, which performs a full attack on every enemy in the path and which, combined with cleaving stance, destroys whole groups of end game enemies in no time at all. I'm sure there are better ways of abusing this but I don't think paralysing or summoning will be one of them (paralyse is pretty unexciting in Deadfire).

 

EDIT: RavenDarkholme/VictorCreed used this in his solo PotD game. He reached max level way before Ukaizo. Remember you level faster solo than with a group.

 

EDIT2: I agree that the game shouldn't be balanced around solo play, but if there's ever going to be a meaningful equivalent of The Ultimate achievement in Deadfire it's going to require balancing to remove things like this, as right now it'd be trivially easy (early game you use summons to get through encounters, running away if things are going poorly to deaggro enemies).

Edited May 19, 2018 by JerekKruger

[dunehunter]

Three classes I didn't ever bother play atm, Monk, Chanter, Fighter. Charge + Cleave is pretty cheesy.

[divjak]

 

game is not balanced around  solo, also i am not sure  for multiclassed, yeah first you need  to wait some of your phrases till you get it so you can cast, then you are at 0 phrases again,  all that time  you could already kill, paralyze,  summon, or watever

 

You start combat with either 6 or 7 phrases at max level (it seems to vary for no particular reason). I can't remember exactly how many the Brilliant invocation costs, but with 7 you definitely have enough to cast it straight away and with 6 you have to wait at most 3s (as a Troubadour). You then spam something like the Fighter's Charge ability, which performs a full attack on every enemy in the path and which, combined with cleaving stance, destroys whole groups of end game enemies in no time at all. I'm sure there are better ways of abusing this but I don't think paralysing or summoning will be one of them (paralyse is pretty unexciting in Deadfire).

 

EDIT: RavenDarkholme/VictorCreed used this in his solo PotD game. He reached max level way before Ukaizo. Remember you level faster solo than with a group.

 

EDIT2: I agree that the game shouldn't be balanced around solo play, but if there's ever going to be a meaningful equivalent of The Ultimate achievement in Deadfire it's going to require balancing to remove things like this, as right now it'd be trivially easy (early game you use summons to get through encounters, running away if things are going poorly to deaggro enemies).

 

 

 

you were saying its broken for multiclass solo, while basically you will only use it only in end game area, so you will need to live without it for whole god damn game. 

 

How does  that makes any sense?

I think you guys are theroycrafters with no practical knowledge, it's frustrating to read this

 

 

to get 7 phrases  after brilliant back, you need 15 seconds, so after you cast brilliant, you basically get 3 phrases per 6 seconds. Troubadur has it easier,  this  invocation works with troubadours  the best, but still, its most  useful to chanter itself.

Only way around this if you empower it with Sacha sabre, but then again you can use that empower to chain cast more useful invocations.

 I see here lots of number crunching and pipe dreams of armchair generals, but no experience with using it

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[dam]

List of all things OP and broken. To be updated. Including only high priority stuff for now, along with some suggestions for possible fixes.

 

General

 

-Empower. I think Empower on abilities is currently broken as it often nearly doubles the damage of powerful PL9 abilities. The problem though, is that it doesn't seem possible to balance things with how it works now as it can break even non OP abilities. A quick fix would probably be toning it down to +5 PL, however I'd rather see it either removed so you can only use empowers to restore resources or changed to do something else e.g. guarantee a hit.

-Unlimited empower on summons. Summons with abilities have access to unlimited empower, dealing way too much damage with their abilities.

-Nature godlike. +2 PL is just too big of a bonus for any power based characters. +1 should keep it useful without being as much of a must have.

 

Barbarian

 

-Noting of super high priority.

 

Chanter

 

-Set to their purpose, they all knew their part/brilliant inspiration. - Completely broken, restoring 1 power pool per 3 sec. Rework into anything else really, e.g. more affliction duration, no friendly fire, anything else that could make sense for t3 int inspiration. Just not this. Makes his "heart did fill with the light of the dawn obsolete", that one is probably more or less balanced although it does allow some crazy combos in a party.

-Mercy and kindness followed where she walked - too strong in general and breaks stuff like fighter's unbending. Nerf to 50% for now.

 

Cipher

 

Cipher is a tricky one because it's a trash class (probably the worst one in the game) until higher PLs so nerfs should be combined with buffs to a large number of spells. However:

 

-Ascended - at higher levels, ascended power spam becomes too ridiculous. Suggest to make powers cost less when in ascended state rather than 0.

-Time parasite - should not stack, +300% action speed is bonkers. 50% should be plenty.

-Death of 1000 cuts - doesn't work at all atm, but just looking at the numbers, probably needs to be toned down once fixed.

 

Druid

 

-Noting of super high priority.

 

Fighter

 

-Mob stance. Free heart of fury on kill is way too OP. Suggest to change to 1 free full attack against a random enemy on kill. It's still pretty much bloodthirst, a much higher PL barb ability, but at least not as broken.

-Charge. Full attack on everyone in aoe is again pretty much a cheaper/much lower level heart of fury and is problematic with aoe weapons and such. Suggested to do ability damage similar to monk's flagellants path instead of a weapon attack.

-Unbending - Change the 75% healing upgrade to some other inspiration. It would still be broken with any healing enhancements. 50% might be manageable.

 

Monk

 

-Swift flurry. Should only trigger once on aoe/multi projectile weapon attacks. Completely broken atm.

-Turning wheel. Nerf to 2.5% lash/wound. 50% "passive" lash is too massive especially considering all other buffs monks have.

-Inner death. Absurd nuke. Nerf to +250% crit damage (this is supposed to be combined with empower and turning wheel nerfs above)

-Empowered strikes. Absurd buff. Nerf to +10 acc & +3 pen.

 

Paladin

 

-Faith and conviction. Nerf by about 25%, gives way too much def with maxed dispositions.

-Shieldbearers of St. Elga - Change cannot die on LoH to grant x pt damage shield. It would be better earlygame but not so abuseable.

 

Priest

 

-Devotions of the faithful could get a nerf for a really long time, but they are not gamebreaking in a way some other abilities are and priest spell list is overall kinda lackluster so it can wait for a more fine grained rebalance.

 

Ranger

 

-Nothing of super high priority.

 

Rogue

 

-Nothing of super high priority. I'd look into some things like Streetfighter after the most obviously broken stuff has been fixed though.

 

Wizard

 

-Missile spells. Less scaling (maybe +1 projectile per 3 or 4 PL instead of 2). This is supposed to be combined with empower nerf.

-Meteor Shower - halve the damage.

 

 

Ah, to be entirely honest, I disagree with pretty much every point you make.

Every character is "broken" at high level.

 

The only 2 classes that are somewhat meh even at high level are Priests and Druids, in my opinion.

 

 

You're not taking into account the progression/reward aspect of RPGs where your character starts off somewhat weak and ends up much stronger.

 

 

 

Ciphers, for example, have OK early game (being able to shaken then charm an enemy is a fight changer).

Then they have absolutely terrible midgame, where they get outperformed by almost all other classes and require a lot of micro-management (bit like rogues here).

Finally as you hit Mind Plague, Time Parasite and Reaping Knives, you get something useful.

Defensive Mindweb tho lol, nerfed so hard it's basically useless now.

 

 

As for Chanters, both the +fire damage and the AOE slash/fire damage songs have been nerfed to oblivion, and back.

It is lucky they still get some useful spells.

In fact the only reason, to me, to include a Chanter in a group, is that very same Brilliant inspiration.

[JerekKruger]

you were saying its broken for multiclass solo, while basically you will only use it only in  game area, so you will need to live without it for whole god damn game. 

 

How does  that makes any sense?

I think you guys are theroycrafters with no practical knowledge, it's frustrating to read this

 

This isn't theorycrafting. Raven Darkholme/Victor Creed used this in his solo PotD playthrough already.

 

And again, you reach max level way before Ukaizo when you play solo.

 

to get 7 phrases  after brilliant back, you need 15 seconds, so after you cast brilliant, you basically get 3 phrases per 6 seconds. Troubadur has it easier,  this  invocation works with troubadours  the best, but still, its most  useful to chanter itself.

Only way around this if you empower it with Sacha sabre, but then again you can use that empower to chain cast more useful invocations.

 

Who cares how long it takes to build phrases back up with Brilliant. You aren't using Brilliant to cast invocations, you're using it to spam Charge.

 

 I see here lots of number crunching and pipe dreams of armchair generals, but no experience with using it

 

Again, this has been put into practice. It's not theorycrafting.

Edited May 19, 2018 by JerekKruger

[divjak]

 

you were saying its broken for multiclass solo, while basically you will only use it only in  game area, so you will need to live without it for whole god damn game. 

 

How does  that makes any sense?

I think you guys are theroycrafters with no practical knowledge, it's frustrating to read this

 

This isn't theorycrafting. Raven Darkholme/Victor Creed used this in his solo PotD playthrough already.

 

And again, you reach max level way before Ukaizo when you play solo.

 

to get 7 phrases  after brilliant back, you need 15 seconds, so after you cast brilliant, you basically get 3 phrases per 6 seconds. Troubadur has it easier,  this  invocation works with troubadours  the best, but still, its most  useful to chanter itself.

Only way around this if you empower it with Sacha sabre, but then again you can use that empower to chain cast more useful invocations.

 

Who cares how long it takes to build phrases back up with Brilliant. You aren't using Brilliant to cast invocations, you're using it to spam Charge.

 

 I see here lots of number crunching and pipe dreams of armchair generals, but no experience with using it

 

Again, this has been put into practice. It's not theorycrafting.

 

so ok, you dont  really get this when you get charge, you still have ways to go to unlock this combo, but without it you have like 12 + 6 discipline with empowering, so thats 9 charges, really you need more?

 

you still have explosives, damage invocations, summons and so on, for that 7 phrases you could  have cast tornado which is basically equivalent of bunch of charges,  it does bunch of damage and jumps around. I would get 150 damage per tornado bounce

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[JerekKruger]

so ok, you dont  really get this when you get charge, you still have ways to go to unlock this combe, but without it you have like 12 + 6 discipline with empower, so thats 9 charges, really you need more?

 

On solo? Yes, you often do.

[Elric Galad]

I think the main issue with Unbending is that it benefits from bonuses.

50% or 75% life restored is totally OK. It is when it scales with Might, Chant or anything else that it becomes broken.

 

As it is a based on a ratio of damages taken, it should be based on this ratio only (it might be sligly buffed to compensate, it would still be far easier to balance than in its current form).

[divjak]

 

so ok, you dont  really get this when you get charge, you still have ways to go to unlock this combe, but without it you have like 12 + 6 discipline with empower, so thats 9 charges, really you need more?

 

On solo? Yes, you often do.

 

casting tornado + charging is more efficient, so no 

 

and  the fact you have cleaving stance, you dont need more that 9 charges, giving an example of guy who obviously needs to L2P, is not an excuse 

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[JerekKruger]

casting tornado + charging is more efficient, so no

You've played a lot of solo chanter to test this have you, or are you theorycrafting?

 

and  the fact you have cleaving stance, you dont need more that 9 charges, giving an example of guy who obviously needs to L2P, is not an excuse

Great argument. If someone does something different to you they are clearly bad at the game and need to L2P. You couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

EDIT: also in what world is "here's an even more powerful way to trivialise the game" a good argument against an existing way to trivialise the game. Both need fixing (post PotD tuning of course).

Edited May 19, 2018 by JerekKruger

[divjak]

 

casting tornado + charging is more efficient, so no

You've played a lot of solo chanter to test this have you, or are you theorycrafting?

 

and  the fact you have cleaving stance, you dont need more that 9 charges, giving an example of guy who obviously needs to L2P, is not an excuse

Great argument. If someone does something different to you they are clearly bad at the game and need to L2P. You couldn't possibly be wrong.

 

i have played chanter/monk, and did some fights solo, and monk has a flagellant path, same thing really, except in that kind of gameplay weaker because of lack of cleaving stance. I have never thought that brilliant would change anything significant

 

 

thing is that with brilliant you get nothing  in terms of damage

 

if you use positioning charge can enable cleaving stance, if you paralyze and charge trough you get more crits, tornado itself can clear half the mobs alone...

 

What you get with brilliant, is after you spent your 18 discipline down the line if  you are that gimp that you didnt finish  the fight by then, you get a charge or 2 more, whaaat LOL. even penetrating strike when  around bunch of mobs is more useful then charge to take full benefit of cleave 

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[Zeitzbach]

Fixing the level scaling at least prevents me from just critting last-game contents 90% of the time at level 20. 100-120 deflect vampyr are quite an annoyance when you don't just drop empowerd maelstorm on their head.

 

Now they just need to give the enemies proper skill usage instead of using at best T4 stuff at level 20.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[theBalthazar]

Brilliant (49s) + Barring door (20s ...min and it was a test for my future team without stuff) = immortal.

 

Immortal = not fun

 

not fun = why invest in constitution.

 

= Destabilization of the logic the game = gamebreak.

Edited May 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[divjak]

Brilliant + Barring door = immortal.

 

Immortal = not fun

 

not fun = why invest in constitution.

 

= gamebreak.

tranq shot from ranger, or arcane damp from wiz, and your ded

 

 

the biggest problem with difficulty right now, is that mobs are basically meatbags with no knowledge of countering buff combos  

Edited May 19, 2018 by divjak

[JerekKruger]

i have played chanter/monk, and did some fights solo, and monk has a flagellant path, same thing really, except in that kind of gameplay weaker because of lack of cleaving stance. I have never thought that brilliant would change anything significant

Flagellant's Path doesn't do a full attack to every enemy hit along the path, it does a small amount of crush damage. It's significantly less powerful than charge.

 

Anyway I'm bowing out of this argument. It's not going anywhere.