The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

 

Or maybe you need to be a grownup and get over your favorite OP character getting nerfed so that we actually have an interesting tactical game with meaningful choices?

 

 

Why should he? It's Single Player RPG. If he will want he will pop God-Mode with Console and be super OP anyway.

 

Thing is- you can choose to be OP or not in RPG. Nobody force you to take Inner Death at Level IX, which is basicelly DnD "Banshee scream".

 

Did you ever thought of possibility that there are people who find it fun being OP, especially in end game, in single player RPG?

 

Or you just think only your way of thinking about this and other games is correct, while everyone else should just bow to your "balancing" idea?

 

Different people find different things fun in game. Imagine that. 

So maybe, just maybe, stop speaking like you speak on behalf of whole community as I guarantee you 90% of people playing this game don't even visit forum, they just play single player RPG game and enjoy it. And I can also guarantee you- those players are more happy than sad when they find how to be stronger in RPG.

 

It's not PvP ffs.

 

Exaclty, you can always pop godmode via console.

 

I want balanced game experience where I can make tactical decisions between using appropriate abilities, not having "I win" buttons, mixed with "why even bother clicking this" buttons.

 

Anyways, this discussion is going in circles. Obsidian does think balance is important and I don't think you people can be persuaded. You can always play Divinity OS 2, Dragon Age 2/3 or any of the other RPGs that do not bother with any semblance of balance.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Mordimer]

 

 

 

 

Nature Godlike.

True, I'm tired of all my characters being green. I'll think of a good solution and add to the OP.

 

Why do people ask for nerfs in a single player game?

 

Just because you personally don't find something fun, it doesn't mean everyone else agrees with your preferences.

Because the game has 0 replayability due to being trivial AF atm?

 

 

 

You need to be a grownup and find your own ways to challenge your self ingame.

 

Or maybe you need to be a grownup and get over your favorite OP character getting nerfed so that we actually have an interesting tactical game with meaningful choices?

 

 

Why should he? It's Single Player RPG. If he will want he will pop God-Mode with Console and be super OP anyway.

 

Thing is- you can choose to be OP or not in RPG. Nobody force you to take Inner Death at Level IX, which is basicelly DnD "Banshee scream".

 

Did you ever thought of possibility that there are people who find it fun being OP, especially in end game, in single player RPG?

 

Or you just think only your way of thinking about this and other games is correct, while everyone else should just bow to your "balancing" idea?

 

Different people find different things fun in game. Imagine that. 

So maybe, just maybe, stop speaking like you speak on behalf of whole community as I guarantee you 90% of people playing this game don't even visit forum, they just play single player RPG game and enjoy it. And I can also guarantee you- those players are more happy than sad when they find how to be stronger in RPG.

 

It's not PvP ffs.

 

 

Well said! I am new here but I don't play single players RPG for "balanced" fights. I play for fun. And I want to see my lvl 20 Archmage, master swordsman, High Priest etc. vaporize screen as this is why I level up in first place.

 

 

 

 

 

And BG2 had plently of broken combos, Bioware never was any good balancing their games. Combat was never a strong side for them, but it was for PoE1.

 

 

Not because they were not good. Because why would you balance it in first place? I loved combat in BG2, especially later they grabbed that feeling of DnD where being a 20 level is basicelly being one of the strongest beings among mortals (excluding character like Elimnster, Shaz-Tam etc.). So you should feel like one. 

[Zeitzbach]

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

[Draigo]

I don't know if anyone mentioned Beckoner but it is completely broken, summons can carry every fight in the game easily. They should nerf their HP and Damage for sure

[Mordimer]

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Precisely. Obsidian should just balance things thinking of general player base, who just sit and play, don't theorycraft most broken solo builds. They should absolutely not listen to people on this "Builds" sub-forum as it's like 1% of players who sit more theorycrafting builds than actually playing game.

[dunehunter]

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

[Voltron]

l.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

This here, I agree totally. Like how many people in this thread are constantly posting for nerfs. It's like what... 5-10 same Users, which most of them just theorycraft most broken builds instead of playing?

 

I am sure game should not be balanced according to them but actually 99% of rest of playerbase.

[MadDemiurg]

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

 

 

 

l.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

This here, I agree totally. Like how many people in this thread are constantly posting for nerfs. It's like what... 5-10 same Users, which most of them just theorycraft most broken builds instead of playing?

I am sure game should not be balanced according to them but actually 99% of rest of playerbase.

 

About as many as the ones protesting the nerfs really. It's good to know you're 99% of the playerbase. There are tons of other threads complaining about game being too easy or OP stuff as well.

 

I remember you as the guy going out of his way defending OSA barb bug in POE1. It was fixed). Don't think it would be any different this time.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Voltron]

I don't know if anyone mentioned Beckoner but it is completely broken, summons can carry every fight in the game easily. They should nerf their HP and Damage for sure

 

Wait you want me to tell that Summoning subclass summons are strong and actually a main weapon of summoner subclass.....

What a strange game...

[Zeitzbach]

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

 

 

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Voltron]

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

And therefore you should not balance it for minority hardcore powerbuilders, but take casual approach to this game. How many players do you think actually have balance issues vs those who just play game now and enjoy it, probably already beat it?

[MadDemiurg]

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

And therefore you should not balance it for minority hardcore powerbuilders, but take casual approach to this game. How many players do you think actually have balance issues vs those who just play game now and enjoy it, probably already beat it?

 

I've already beaten the game once. I have no desire to do it again before the fixes.

 

I see a lot of other people being disappointed by the current state of things.

[Zeitzbach]

Some are disappointed but some are also content. Fun is subjective and it's why one side should never assume they have the front seat.

 

Nerfs are absolutely needed but complete gutting until it becomes hardcore Watcher Must Die no skill allowed mode? lolnope.

[Voltron]

 

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

And therefore you should not balance it for minority hardcore powerbuilders, but take casual approach to this game. How many players do you think actually have balance issues vs those who just play game now and enjoy it, probably already beat it?

 

I've already beaten the game once. I have no desire to do it again before the fixes.

 

I see a lot of other people being disappointed by the current state of things.

 

 

Ok, tell me the number of those people and I will compare that to Steam playerbase playing game today and over weekend or just over people being happy with game on forum. 

 

I beat game twice almost, preparing for my 3rd solo with Zerker/Fighter.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[GuyNice]

I fail to see the reason to argue about this. A big group of players want to feel like gods and have an easy time. They currently have 4 difficulty levels which allow that. Another big group of players want 1 difficulty level that challenges them. Both groups want to use all available gameplay options for their preferred challenge level. Obsidian wants to maximize player satisfaction and revenue. So it behooves them to have 1 difficulty (PotD) that pleases the players who want a challenge. It also doesn't prevent all the other players from stomping all over the game blindfolded on one of the 3 other difficulties (based on their personal taste).

 

It's not like having difficulty or having everything easy is mutually exclusive. If you don't want a challenge, play on story mode. But for those who do, PotD needs to be hard. In order to make it hard, you need to redesign encounters, buff enemy stats, work on enemy AI, and remove game-breakingly powerful abilities and combos. You will still be able to roll your face on the keyboard to beat story mode.

Edited May 18, 2018 by GuyNice

[lord_wc]

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

 

What you completely miss is nothing the self-proclaimed hardcore gamers said actually makes the game more difficult.

It only makes fights longer.

 

If you think your victory is 'hard-won' because you were able to sit in front of the screen watching that bunny's hp drop 1%/hit, while think if a properly built character just blows it up in 2 seconds is broken and needs a nerf, the problem isn't with the game, it's with you. Making the fights drawn out and boring by either inflating enemy hp or scaling back player damage won't make the game hardcore. It will make it just boring.

Edited May 18, 2018 by lord_wc

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

And therefore you should not balance it for minority hardcore powerbuilders, but take casual approach to this game. How many players do you think actually have balance issues vs those who just play game now and enjoy it, probably already beat it?

 

I've already beaten the game once. I have no desire to do it again before the fixes.

 

I see a lot of other people being disappointed by the current state of things.

 

 

Ok, tell me the number of those people and I will compare that to Steam playerbase playing game today and over weekend or just over people being happy with game on forum. 

 

I beat game twice almost, preparing for my 3rd solo with Zerker/Fighter.

 

People playing the game do not indicate they all think it's a fun experience. E.g. I was one of the people playing it, so what? All people who think the game is too easy played the game... that's how they know it's too easy, lol.

[MadDemiurg]

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

 

What you completely miss is nothing the self-proclaimed hardcore gamers said actually makes the game more difficult.

It only makes it fights longer.

 

If you think your victory is 'hard-won' because you were able to sit in front of the screen watching that bunny's hp drop 1%/hit, while think a properly built character just blows it up in 2 seconds, the problem isn't with the game, it's with you. Making the fights drawn out and boring by either inflating enemy hp or scaling back player damage won't make the game hardcore. It will make it just boring.

 

I'm pretty sure giving enemies at least a chance to do something is a good start, lol. Then we can maybe do some better tuning. If you think the suggested changes will drop damage done to 1% hit, I don't even know what to tell. Even if I double the nerfs I suggested most party fights would still be over under 20 sec.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Voltron]

I fail to see the reason to argue about this. A big group of players want to feel like gods and have an easy time. They currently have 4 difficulty levels which allow that. Another big group of players want 1 difficulty level that challenges them. Both groups want to use all available gameplay options for their preferred challenge level. Obsidian wants to maximize player satisfaction and revenue. So it behooves them to have 1 difficulty (PotD) that pleases the players who want a challenge. It also doesn't prevent all the other players from stomping all over the game blindfolded on one of the 3 other difficulties (based on their personal taste).

 

It's not like having difficulty or having everything easy is mutually exclusive. If you don't want a challenge, play on story mode. But for those who do, PotD needs to be hard. In order to make it hard, you need to redesign encounters, buff enemy stats, work on enemy AI, and remove game-breakingly powerful abilities and combos. You will still be able to roll your face on the keyboard to beat story mode.

 

And here is thing- adjusting PotD instead of just nerfing everything. I already said I understand Inner Death or Empower spells because I think here just numbers are broken and it's easy fix.

But when I hear about nerfing Chanter Level VII invocation, Paladin defenses, FoD, Meteor Shower (freaking level IX!!! spell), Fighter Cleave stance, Racial bonus (WHO THE HELL FORCE YOU TO TAKE NATURE GODLIKE??!!!) etc. - this will actually affect whole player base who play on all difficulties and just want to have great time and it's bad, selfish approach from "hardcore" players. I don't even now what hardcore player do in single player RPG.....

 

So I think the discussion should not be about nerfs to some strong things in game, which are better then underpower ones but about how to adjust PotD itself to make it challanging.

 

Because never seen a game with succesful balancing with just an approach "hey this is very good, let's nerf it. Nice, now we have 5 ****ty skills to chose from instead of one good and 4 bad. Balance".

 

PotD should be balanced first and foremost.

 

Also there is far more skills that need buff instead of very few that might be too strong.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[MadDemiurg]

POE1 OSA barb was also completely fair and not at all bugged, right?

 

You can't balance the POTD without nerfing gamebreaking stuff that cant be balanced.

 

And the number of super OP abilities is not that huge compared to total. There are also a lot of perfectly normal and balanced abilities. To create meaningful choices between these and the OP stuff you would have to buff them all, which is way more work.

 

Btw, if we're balancing the game for an "average player" that would pick abilities at random, current situation creates highly unbalanced experience. E.g. Average Joe 1 uses cleaving stance on his fighter and facerolls everything. Average Joe 2 thinks conquerors stance sounds more cool, but for some reason faces much more difficulty.

 

But apparently some people just can't stand the idea of nerfs because "but muh OP build".

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Zeitzbach]

I fail to see the reason to argue about this. A big group of players want to feel like gods and have an easy time. They currently have 4 difficulty levels which allow that. Another big group of players want 1 difficulty level that challenges them. Both groups want to use all available gameplay options for their preferred challenge level. Obsidian wants to maximize player satisfaction and revenue. So it behooves them to have 1 difficulty (PotD) that pleases the players who want a challenge. It also doesn't prevent all the other players from stomping all over the game blindfolded on one of the 3 other difficulties (based on their personal taste).

 

It's not like having difficulty or having everything easy is mutually exclusive. If you don't want a challenge, play on story mode. But for those who do, PotD needs to be hard. In order to make it hard, you need to redesign encounters, buff enemy stats, work on enemy AI, and remove game-breakingly powerful abilities and combos. You will still be able to roll your face on the keyboard to beat story mode.

 

How exactly do these people define challenges? Difficult fights that feel unique to tackle or just a bunch of damage sponge like some terrible MMO raid?

 

None of these changes will make the game anymore difficult or unique, just a terrible damage slog.

 

My 2nd playthrough team is Ranger -  Chanter Sera - Pal/Fig Gina- Druid Takehu - Ran/Wiz Maia and PotD is still a joke without me really using any of the "Nerfpls" skills. This list doesn't affect me in the slightest but unless the hardcore who thinks they own PotD can define the fair powerlevel for each class that keep unique and defines a challenging game that also isn't a boring slogfest, the day these people start whining about ranger dealing damage will arrive.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[lord_wc]

 

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

 

What you completely miss is nothing the self-proclaimed hardcore gamers said actually makes the game more difficult.

It only makes it fights longer.

 

If you think your victory is 'hard-won' because you were able to sit in front of the screen watching that bunny's hp drop 1%/hit, while think a properly built character just blows it up in 2 seconds, the problem isn't with the game, it's with you. Making the fights drawn out and boring by either inflating enemy hp or scaling back player damage won't make the game hardcore. It will make it just boring.

 

I'm pretty sure giving enemies at least a chance to do something is a good start, lol. Then we can maybe do some better tuning. If you think the suggested changes will drop damage done to 1% hit, I don't even know what to tell. Even if I double the nerfs I suggested most party fights would still be over under 20 sec.

 

Yet I don't see anywhere even one suggestion that actually lets the enemy do something.

Why don't I see you wanting the restealth glitch fixed? Or sniping enemies off screen that just stand there? Or abusing the conversation system to do things you are not supposed to do? Maybe having an actual working AI instead of the enemies just charging you?

 

The game has little challenge due to the fact that the AI is dumb as bricks. To cover that PoE player damage was nerfed to the ground to 'make it hardcore' yet it was just incredibly boring. Enemies were just standing blocks of hp and stats without any use of tactics or randomness. If your character matched certain stat checks throughout the game you could sit a goat in front of the computer and it would complete successfully.

 

To put it in other words you want to fix something which isn't broken and send the game down a lane which PoE went, and it's an incredibly boring lane which resulted in the first game having 0 relevancy in the long run.

 

Imagine if the game actually had a working AI. That randomly enemies have precloacked rogues waiting to blow up your backline. Or if some caster actually buffs their fighters. Or stuff like that. That would be challenge. Making fights longer is not.

Edited May 18, 2018 by lord_wc

[theBalthazar]

1 % is very much, because theses 5-10 peoples like you said, -understand and think 95 % of the game- the global balance, the global vision, perhaps better than Dev. Because dev have time constraint, they think the game, they code the game, we -live- the game, we challenging the game. We trying to find the loophole of optimization.

 

You don't adjust balance really for casual. Casual sometimes doesn't see a known bug, or a minor fail in the tooltip. Us, yes. Balance is more important for theorycrafter like us.

 

Casual will play once of the game and never come back. I know that, you know that, everybody know that.

 

PotD needs to be hard.

 

 

Very hard.

[knownastherat]

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

 

"Hardcore" and "PoE2" do not belong in one sentence at the moment.

 

What you completely miss is nothing the self-proclaimed hardcore gamers said actually makes the game more difficult.

It only makes it fights longer.

 

If you think your victory is 'hard-won' because you were able to sit in front of the screen watching that bunny's hp drop 1%/hit, while think a properly built character just blows it up in 2 seconds, the problem isn't with the game, it's with you. Making the fights drawn out and boring by either inflating enemy hp or scaling back player damage won't make the game hardcore. It will make it just boring.

 

I'm pretty sure giving enemies at least a chance to do something is a good start, lol. Then we can maybe do some better tuning. If you think the suggested changes will drop damage done to 1% hit, I don't even know what to tell. Even if I double the nerfs I suggested most party fights would still be over under 20 sec.

 

Yet I don't see anywhere even one suggestion that actually lets the enemy do something.

Why don't I see you wanting the restealth glitch fixed? Or sniping enemies off screen that just stand there? Or abusing the conversation system to do things you are not supposed to do? Maybe having an actual working AI instead of the enemies just charging you?

 

The game has little challenge due to the fact that the AI is dumb as bricks. To cover that PoE player damage was nerfed to the ground to 'make it hardcore' yet it was just incredibly boring. Enemies were just standing blocks of hp and stats without any use of tactics or randomness. If your character matched certain stat checks throughout the game you could sit a goat in front of the computer and it would complete successfully.

 

To put it in other words you want to fix something which isn't broken and send the game down a lane which PoE went, and it's an incredibly boring lane which resulted in the first game having 0 relevancy in the long run.

 

Imagine if the game actually had a working AI. That randomly enemies have precloacked rogues waiting to blow up your backline. Or if some caster actually buffs their fighters. Or stuff like that. That would be challenge. Making fights longer is not.

 

You're welcome to add any other suggestions, I can't cover all the broken stuff. Precloacked rogues or casters with buffs won't help so long as you can blow them all up with 1 hit while being impervious to damage.

 

PoE1 aged very well, a lot of players played it pretty much till release of Deadfire, because it was actually fun and balanced.