Your Tiers List [Classes/Subclasses] v.2

[theBalthazar]

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/94783-your-tiers-list-base-classes-subclasses/

 

My friends... It is time...

 

The Return of the Tiers List. YOUR Tiers List.

 

According to you, 

 

A) FUN. What Classes/Subclasses are fun to play ? Not fun at all ?

 

B) EFFECTIVENESS. What classes/subclasses are enough Powerful, too much powerful, not enough powerful ?

 

C) SUBCLASSES BALANCING. What penalties discourage you to take the class / are too strong compared to bonus ?

 

D) CREATIVE BACKGROUND. What are concepts that you like / Dislike ? (Not to mention the raw power of the class)

 

If you want, make a full tiers list, with or without Multiclass.

[Climhazzard]

Way to early for me to reply here, lol.  At this rate I'll play every combination to level 10 and never finish the game.  Devoted/pillar and nature godlike pillar are both fun, effective, and strong.  Paladin/troubadour is all kinds of strong too.

[Urocyon]

D) Conceptually, I like

 

Darcozzi Paladin/Streetfighter: wastrel aristocratic knight who spends his free time mixing it up in the back alleys.

 

Troubadour/Ghost Heart: pistol packing wanderer with a story to tell and a song to sing

[jakesmurf]

A) FUN: I'm kind of a lazy player in RTwP games, so this might influence my decisions since I don't like to micro 5 chars and wear my spacebar out.


Single Class Beckoner:  I've really enjoyed the beckoner I decided to add to the final slot in my party.  It's not the most powerful member of my team, but it has fun utility on top of hordes of summons.  I especially enjoy the animated weapons summon, or the way that the dragons launch a huge AOE breath attack the instant they spawn and clear out big packs like I'm an AOE wizard.  

Single Class Missile Wizard:  This is a really, really simple character to play, the AI can even do a good job of it with the right custom script, but it's just really... satisfying.  Since the number of missiles your spells launch increase by powerful level, you go Evoker/Nature Godlike and fire off a dozen missiles at a time, sometimes you even get the evocation proc and double it.  The animation is satisfying, and the damage is probably one of the highest of a class I've seen outside of all the shenanigans going on in Monk.  

B/C)  POWERFUL / SUBCLASSES

Tier 0/Too Godlike)  Monk.  This is obvious.  The class is broken.  Even if Swift Flurry weren't super gimmicky/you skipped it the class is still super powerful.  You have constant access to resources, a good balance of defensive and offence options, prones, etc, all of the subclasses have a great niche with downsides that are easy to work around.  Basically every top tier martial build, including ranged ones probably, would be better with the inclusion of Monk.  It has access to easy pen, a modal that gives a ton of Constitution/Int/LashDamage/armor/etc, a passive version of melee Swift Flurry at Tier 7.  I've actually gone out of my way to remove monks from my party because they spoil the fun.  I actually wanted to make a Swift Flurry gimmick build because I love it conceptually, but once you hit level 7 and get Kitchen Stove it actually one shots everything on POTD, literally infinite damage against Triple Red Skull enemies, doesn't matter what order you complete the map in anymore.  

Tier 1/Pretty Godlike)  Chanter.  Nothing *in particular* screams godlike, I know.  Doesn't have many martial passives to back up it's weapon DPS, it's offensive invocations are generally not that amazing, etc.  Still, it's utility is really strong just because it brings so many little things to your party.  Summons, especially as Beckoner, feel satisfying enough.  They're not that strong on their own but you summon a lot of them at a time with the double summoning thing, and some of them have abilities they use the instant they spawn, like the dragon, which makes them effectively an AOE damage spell like fireball with bonus bodies afterwards.  They have an AOE Paralyze (gives 50% hit to crit conversation) and the reload/recovery chant for buffing martial allies.  They have chants that can effectively make your party immortal by providing healing, defensive buffs, or HealEffectiveness%, which combos really well with people who have passive sources of healing like fighters, paladins, priests, etc.  Oh and the Brilliant passive they get in Tier 7 is basically infinite resources for your whole party if you need them.  They're not that strong on their own but they're worth more than a single character when you aggregate all they bring to the table for the whole party.  All subclasses are pretty good within their niche.  Skald didn't feel as reliable as I thought it would be, Beckoner is fun if you want a summoner, Troubadour gets a lot of invocations at the expense of some chant utility.  

Tier 1.5/Pretty Godlike Most Of the Time)  Wizard.  Wizard has a lot of damage and a lot of utility.  I love that all spells are per-encounter now, but I'm not in love with how few casts you get of individual spells.  That said, there's two things that Wizard does exceedingly well.  First off, Missile Wizard (mentioned in Class A) is really strong for DPS.  Granted, it doesn't do much of anything BUT DPS and runs out of spells on long fights, it's front loaded alpha at the beginning of a fight can carry your party through to unlikely or swift victories.  Besides Swift Flurry shenanigans my Missile Wizard is probably the highest DPS char I've made thus far (and I've made a lot.. I have a problem).  Generalist Wizard is actually very strong as well.  A few spells seem a little over budget for damage (chill fog etc), and Illusion spells can make a Wizard nearly impossible to hit with spells or deflection attacks - combine into a multi-class tank or just as a way to get away with a glass cannon build and you're good to go.  The only thing I haven't tried yet is "martial" wizard via summoning weapons, but I'm assuming it would work as well.  Minor Blights is still very strong.  I give Wizard a tier 1.5 because including it in a party is almost always beneficial, but certain builds might not have use for or the ability to benefit from all it's strengths simultaneously.  I don't recommend taking a subclass unless you want to make a Missile Evoker, and even then you could probably make a solid argument against it.  The downsides here are just...steep.  

Tier 1.5/Pretty Godlike If You're Willing To Work For It) Rogue.  Take this with a grain of salt because I haven't used Rogue that much, but where you place it in the list probably depends on a lot on what you plan to do with it.  To me personally, Rogue doesn't do a lot that just screams to me that I need to take it, and I don't like microing a bunch of stealth/invisibility stuff.  That said, Sneak Attack and Death Blows are probably two of the highest sources of bonus damage in the game and combo well in a party that can apply afflictions easily and widely.  There are also some serious backstab shenanigans to be had.  With the right build and party composition (especially with a chanter to regen your guile) Rogue is probably easily the highest DPS class, but also high maintenance.  Rogue also has quite a few useful passives for martial damage and some really slick Guile abilities for bonus damage like Finishing Blow and Strike the Bell.  Assassin seems like it has the most obvious benefit from a build intending to use a lot of stealth or invisibility stuff.  Trickster is probably a solid choice if you want a bit of tankiness from the Illusion spells.  Streetfighter is pretty neat but I don't want really want my frontliners Bloodied and the numbers for the sneak attack bonus / flanked buff/debuff are unclear to me.  

Tier 2/Really Good)  Paladin.  Paladin is kind of like Chanter.  There's not a lot in there that necessarily DEMANDS it's inclusion in certain builds, like Monk does, but it has a very powerful niche.  Namely, it's A)  Really easy to make tanky and practically unkillable, and B)  It feels really solid as part of a martial DPS multi-class build.  It doesn't have many "DPS" abilities, but the ones it does are high-impact.  Flames of Devotion and it's evolutions give big damage and lash effects.  Inspired Beacon is a huge damage boost against tough enemies.  Sworn Rival is practically instant and gives a respectable damage boost as well.  6 skill points get you most of what you need and the rest can be spent on utility like Lay on Hands for solid offhealing, Auras, etc.  Paladin is a good choice for a front line fighter built mostly for damage because they get a ton of "free" defenses and have several revive other /  self-revive options if things get hairy.  All of the subclasses have their uses, but Shieldbearer seems to have very little in the way of penalties, and Bleak Walker's FoD is very strong.  

Tier 2/Really Good)  Fighter.  Fighter just has a lot going for it, like Chanter.  Can basically become immortal without even trying that hard.  As long as you don't get 1-shot by things you're tanky enough with some heal effectiveness food / healing belt / rapid recovery / unbending / natural defenses.  Disciplined and Tactical Strikes both give good inspirations (hit to crit or powerlevel) and their stances are pretty good, especially Cleave/MobStance.  Mob Stance is actually enough to make fighter Tier 1, but I set it to Tier 2 simply because Fighter isn't necessarily unique / mandatory and you could make a strong case for replacing it with other classes like Paladin or Rogue for tanks or dps.  Obviously it pales in comparison to Monk, as well.  The only subclass that speaks to me from Fighter is Devoted, which would be really strong if you knew the meta and exactly what weapons you wanted to use the whole game.  Black Jacket probably has it's uses but not any that I'm gonna put it to, and the penalty for Unbroken doesn't seem worth the extra engagement, mainly because.. who wants to lose stride on a melee char?  I guess you have charge and into the fray, but they're kinda pricy on Discipline with all the other things you have.   

Tier 2.5/Really Good If You Build Around It)  Barbarian.  I feel like Berserker needs to go here, but my experiences with it haven't been as exciting as I had originally hoped.  An Orlan Devoted/Berserker using Barbaric Smash has 100% crit conversion and a ton of bonus crit damage, but not being able to see my own HP / degening health is irritating, and carnaging my allies limits who I can put near them.  That said, the reliable crits are really good for high auto-attack damage and proccing On-Crit abilities like Quick Flurry or weapons that apply afflictions or bonus damage on Crit.  The other two subclasses are totally forgettable or actively self-defeating.  

Tier 3/Okay)  Caster Druid.  I've heard Druid is very powerful combo'ed with Martial Classes in Shifter form, but my only attempt to use it was primarily as a Single Class Caster.  I was very unimpressed with it's performance, personally.  I loved Relentless Storm in POE1 but it feels weak in 2.  Most of their damage spells didn't seem that impactful, and the DoT spells didn't provide much value when my burstier teammates killed enemies before it had an impact.  If you were going for a steady, super-tanky party Druid would fit in great, though.  Druid heals are very solid but largely unnecessary.  You can get healing from a lot of random locations (Paladins, Chanters, Etc), it felt redundant to make room in my party for a dedicated healer when other classes have adequate oh **** buttons.  The main weakness here is long cast/recovery cycles.  They're just... slow.  

 

Tier 3/Okay)  Cipher.  Okay so Soul Blade might deserve to be a bit higher than this because it can combo with something like a Barbarian and spam Soul Annilhilation which is a decent source of damage (but basically negates the entire Cipher ability tree at the same time by using all the Focus).  Cipher's abilities really don't speak to me and usually don't seem like they'd be worth the cast time relative to just firing another auto attack off for Whip damage except maybe Dominate/Charm for a few dangerous enemy special cases.  Basically though, Cipher just seems like an obvious choice if you want that whip damage.  That said, a few of the higher tier, focus expensive Cipher spells look REALLY powerful, especially the shreds, if you're willing to put the work in get one that high.  If I were gonna Cipher I'd probably just leave it out of the party until I was already Ability Tier 6+ and then swap it in.  

Tier 4/Meh)  Priest.  My player character on my first playthrough is a multi-class priest/paladin.  I literally NEVER use the priest spells themselves.  They're just kinda awful.  I use my priest spell charges to cast wizard Illusion spells from Wael tree so at least I can be tanky and not spend the whole day casting spells (Illusions are .4 sec no recovery, priest spells are usually 3 sec cast + 4 sec recovery).  Most of your martial classes can apply their own inspirations instantly anyway, whereas Priest applies them to more people but incredibly slowly and in very limited AOEs.  They might have a niche if it wasn't so easy to access instant/.5 second Inspirations for practically every martial combination out there, or if Chanter wasn't already giving you many of the inspirations on top of other utilities.  Once again, like Druid, the healing feels slow and unnecessary (and not particularly powerful relative to my health pools, either).  Even if I am going to heal I probably will just use Lay On Hands because of how slow the priest heals are to cast, and LoH usually seems to heal more with a much faster response time anyway.  Subclasses are just whatever flavor you want.  Wael is pretty decent for providing several instant cast deflection buffs.  

Tier 4/Meh)  Ranger.  My attempts at using a ranger haven't felt very good.  I don't know if its a scaling problem or what but the Sharpshooter's pet, even the bear, dies really, really fast and debuffs your ranger with Bonded Grief.  The pet's damage doesn't seem crazy high, it's more or less just a body.  Most of the Ranger active abilities are very situational and unexciting, it's basically just a resource pool to use if you run out of whatever else you're multiclassed into (because ranger doesn't seem worth a single class investment).  Ranger does have a few solid passives for ranged attackers but their value isn't likely to be significantly higher than what other classes get in Disciplined Strikes, FoD, Soul Whip, Sneak Attack, Lightning Flurry, etc.  Basically just take ranger if you want the body and minor bonus damage from having an animal companion.  Subclasses are largely forgettable.  Ghost Heart gets you out of Bonded Grief but requires you to summon every fight, Sharpshooter's value is nice but the Recovery Penalty seems kinda misplaced to offset a DPS bonus and the deflection penalty means you get wrecked by melee attackers (since you probably already have another deflection penalty from your weapon).  Stalker probably has a usage but the value to a super tank is lost when you consider the fact that your bonus is rooted in keeping a super-not-tanky companion alive.  

D) Creative Background:  I'll just mention concepts here.  

Quick Flurry:  I LOVE Crit builds in games, proc on hit, bonus attacks, etc.  This falls into my favorite build path wheelhouse perfectly.  I instantly was hooked when I read the description of Quick Flurry and looked for a nice Gimmick to make it proc reliably.  Unfortunately, they made no effort to check the power of this ability and it totally ruins the game if you build around it.  I'm staying away from Monk because it has too much going for it.  Quick Flurry makes it too easy to build an infinite damage loop character.  Also, it occasionally crashed my game by generating too many hits / animations too quickly before I killed off my Quick Flurry char in an inn somewhere in brutal fashion. 

Beckoner:  I loved the Necromancer from Diablo 2.  This is basically that.  My next playthrough is going to be 5 Beckoners just because.  I know it makes no sense, the summons won't even be able to reach their targets, but I want to anyway so  

Backstab Rogue:  [Minor Spoiler Ahead] There's a certain legendary that gives you a change to proc invis on Hit and is fairly easy to obtain early.  It'd take a bit of work / micro to make it work (mainly because said legendary isn't melee) but it would be possible to make a build that procs a ton of backstabs and re-invis'es itself semi-reliably.  Would it be worth it?  Probably not, but it sounds conceptually entertaining for a future playthrough.

Crit Barb / Crit Skald:  Sounds very fun to me conceptually, but it doesn't seem as impactful as I'd have hoped in practice.  Especially because Skald is trying to generate tons of phrases through melee crits but actually casting the invocations themselves prevents you from swinging in melee.  Also Chanter offensive Invocations seem fairly whatever besides the AOE paralyze, which just generates more crits for you.  It's kind of cyclic and the payoff isn't what I expected.  The best usage for this build I can imagine is just using the [Minor Spoiler Ahead] legendary sabre that you can enchant to give your party 2% action speed per phrase held by your chanter.  You could potentially generate a TON of phrases with the right build and use them only to buff your party passively, just skipping invocations all together.  

Cipher Spells:  The "infinite resource" concept of Focus appeals to me, but the Cipher spells themselves don't seem that strong.  Many of them are single target only.  If your party has good damage a single target debuff is mostly wasted against anything but a boss.  The party buffs are mostly single target as well.  There's a few spells (Like Disintegrate) that look like they'd be crazy overtuned, but I haven't tried them yet personally.  

Priest:  I love rolling a priest in D&D or whatever but their ramp-up time is too long.  By the time my priest can throw out a few buffs most fights are already over.  

  












  

[i3ri]

Backstab Rogue:  [Minor Spoiler Ahead] There's a certain legendary that gives you a change to proc invis on Hit and is fairly easy to obtain early.  It'd take a bit of work / micro to make it work (mainly because said legendary isn't melee) but it would be possible to make a build that procs a ton of backstabs and re-invis'es itself semi-reliably.  Would it be worth it?  Probably not, but it sounds conceptually entertaining for a future playthrough.

 

Which legendary is that?

[dunehunter]

D) Riposte Bleakwalker/Rogue build with Whipser of the Endless Path. Only pick FoD, LoH, Escape and Blink Strike as active abilities, all rest passive. Stack as many +deflection to disengagement attack talents/gears. Escape into crowd, before it expire, disengage out. You will trigger tons of riposte from rogue passive and the sword. Fun to play with.

 

And pick feisty voice if u are male MC, it's funny to hear when u crit.

Edited May 16, 2018 by dunehunter

[dunehunter]

@jakesmurf I like your post about the tier list, pretty much summarized my thoughts on the classes. One thing I disagree tho, I think Rogue is tier 2-2.5 if u don't abuse backstab in early game. In late game it doesn't offer much to the team.

[CountGrishnackh]

Tier 3/Okay)  Cipher.  Okay so Soul Blade might deserve to be a bit higher than this because it can combo with something like a Barbarian and spam Soul Annilhilation which is a decent source of damage (but basically negates the entire Cipher ability tree at the same time by using all the Focus).  Cipher's abilities really don't speak to me and usually don't seem like they'd be worth the cast time relative to just firing another auto attack off for Whip damage except maybe Dominate/Charm for a few dangerous enemy special cases.  Basically though, Cipher just seems like an obvious choice if you want that whip damage.  That said, a few of the higher tier, focus expensive Cipher spells look REALLY powerful, especially the shreds, if you're willing to put the work in get one that high.  If I were gonna Cipher I'd probably just leave it out of the party until I was already Ability Tier 6+ and then swap it in.  

 

Having played with cipher the whole time (lvl 18 right now) i must aggree that hes pretty weak for a long time. then he gets tier 6 and aoe knockdown nukes half the screen an goes up to tier 2... then he gets tier 8, gets time parasite, buffs himself with +250% action speed (im not kidding) and kills himself with scepter modal within seconds if you dont watch his health. cypher goes at least equal to the monk in powerlevel at that point

[theBalthazar]

Tier 2.5/Really Good If You Build Around It)  Barbarian.  I feel like Berserker needs to go here, but my experiences with it haven't been as exciting as I had originally hoped.  An Orlan Devoted/Berserker using Barbaric Smash has 100% crit conversion and a ton of bonus crit damage, but not being able to see my own HP / degening health is irritating, and carnaging my allies limits who I can put near them.  That said, the reliable crits are really good for high auto-attack damage and proccing On-Crit abilities like Quick Flurry or weapons that apply afflictions or bonus damage on Crit.  The other two subclasses are totally forgettable or actively self-defeating.  

 

Tier 3/Okay)  Caster Druid.  I've heard Druid is very powerful combo'ed with Martial Classes in Shifter form, but my only attempt to use it was primarily as a Single Class Caster.  I was very unimpressed with it's performance, personally.  I loved Relentless Storm in POE1 but it feels weak in 2.  Most of their damage spells didn't seem that impactful, and the DoT spells didn't provide much value when my burstier teammates killed enemies before it had an impact.  If you were going for a steady, super-tanky party Druid would fit in great, though.  Druid heals are very solid but largely unnecessary.  You can get healing from a lot of random locations (Paladins, Chanters, Etc), it felt redundant to make room in my party for a dedicated healer when other classes have adequate oh **** buttons.  The main weakness here is long cast/recovery cycles.  They're just... slow.  

 

 

 

Yes. Totally agree.

 

1) My actual and first playtrough of game is with a berserker. I confirm the problem : You don't see the health + You hit your companions + 15 accuracy only for 6 second for two points + You give bonus to ennemies (FoD shared ? Go for him... !). So on the paper berserker is awsome... But... Even with max INT invest, you are at what ? 8 sec of +15 accuracy. It is always better than nothing. But there is a high cost of spend (2 for a barbaric blow, 2 or 3 for a personnal constitution inspiration, 1 for 6 sec of +15 accuracy. Often you can't do much things...)

 

2) The problem with relentless is now 6 sec for 2s on 15s of effect. So... Now there is a gap of 3 or 4s between each hit. Perhaps a little bit too nerfed to be competitive. And spiritshift is outclass by everybody. Paladin, fighter, monk. Only stay constitution inspiration level 3 for all. But it is not... always a mandatory.

Edited May 16, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

Lion Sprint shows it only give 15 acc to one attack. But actually it gives bonus to all attacks in the duration. Same as all other abilities that grant u bonus for next hit. Dunno if this is intended or they just cannot code it correctly

[lunattic]

"Tier 1/Pretty Godlike)  Chanter.  Nothing *in particular* screams godlike, I know.  Doesn't have many martial passives to back up it's weapon DPS, it's offensive invocations are generally not that amazing, etc.  Still, it's utility is really strong just because it brings so many little things to your party.  Summons, especially as Beckoner, feel satisfying enough.  They're not that strong on their own but you summon a lot of them at a time with the double summoning thing, and some of them have abilities they use the instant they spawn, like the dragon, which makes them effectively an AOE damage spell like fireball with bonus bodies afterwards.  They have an AOE Paralyze (gives 50% hit to crit conversation) and the reload/recovery chant for buffing martial allies.  They have chants that can effectively make your party immortal by providing healing, defensive buffs, or HealEffectiveness%, which combos really well with people who have passive sources of healing like fighters, paladins, priests, etc.  Oh and the Brilliant passive they get in Tier 7 is basically infinite resources for your whole party if you need them.  They're not that strong on their own but they're worth more than a single character when you aggregate all they bring to the table for the whole party.  All subclasses are pretty good within their niche.  Skald didn't feel as reliable as I thought it would be, Beckoner is fun if you want a summoner, Troubadour gets a lot of invocations at the expense of some chant utility. "

 

First, great writeup

 

Secondly, I'd have to say chanters would be tier 0 too based on the mentioned AoE brilliant buff that lasts forever, gives quick and insightfull as well and grants infinite resources. Combine with a paladin and a priest and voila, you are immortal. If your party is unkillable (I built my party to outlast the enemy and be able to take whatever they threw at me), then you always win. Chanters can also do whatever you want; they have a good electricity nuke with the level 1 upgrade (I lacked lightning damage vs construct which made that painfull without one) and have perfect chants for whatever situation comes up if you spec for it. 

Edited May 16, 2018 by lunattic

[divjak]

as for monks Nalpazca are best hands down.

Helwalker is good for ranged builds.

 

See, Naplazca gets wounds for free basically, you make him an alchemist, and later on drugs give insane bonuses and last over 10 minutes, when you drug crash, you just use a drug once more, and it clears it while giving you another 800 seconds +10  to stats or whatever

There is also a necklace that looks like weed pipe, that gives you a white leaf effect after rest although it counts as having 1 in alchemy, but still its basically beter then  fighter regen for 1 hardtack.

In easier fights, you don't need to even use drugs.

 

Really, there are no downsides in Nalpazca, make him your alchemy guy for the party, buy some drugs and thats it.

To clear a dungeon, you use 1 or sometimes 2 drugs on POTD, with pipe neclase  you just rest inbetween fights, and you get to spam abilities all the time.

 

 

Shattered pillar is i feel the worst, even from no subclass, because its easier to get wounds from taking damage than dealing, also things like a force of anguish, or blade turning are "o ****" abilities, that are best used when you get spiked, and if you get spiked you get no wounds as SP. Maybe for a niche  build, that focuses on spamming torments reach, but having a 5 wound limit is also a huge drawback, and Nalpazca is swimming in wounds, so even then its better for that build also.

 

 

 

My char is a naplazca/skald, really powerful.

lightning ability is really good when upgraded, and you have 3 or more guys next to you, you could get over 100 damage to each of them in an instant, paralyze is better when not upgraded, and  for my char its enabler for crits, a tornado is good when there are 2 or 3 enemies left and spread apart, weakness chant is also good.

Also dont forget that chanters  get their maximum phrases depending on your highest costing one, so as a skald its good to pick up something non ofensive later on, so you get 7 phrases limit 

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[Climhazzard]

Out of curiosity where do you get this pipe necklace you mentioned?

[divjak]

Out of curiosity where do you get this pipe necklace you mentioned?

i think i got itas a drop  from somewhere in palace district, i think it was a bounty there from dunnage where you need to kill a bunch of ex pirates, cant be sure, let me check its name in game, one sec

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[divjak]

Its called Soul Void, gives +1 int, and effects of whiteleaf after rest.

https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Soul_Void

 

The thing is, it doesn't account into your alchemy skill, so its weakest whiteleaf effect that lasts only for like 250-270 seconds, but still it enables wound generation for nalpazcas, and usually lasts  for a 2-3 fights if there is no long time in between

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[Maxzero]

Lion Sprint shows it only give 15 acc to one attack. But actually it gives bonus to all attacks in the duration. Same as all other abilities that grant u bonus for next hit. Dunno if this is intended or they just cannot code it correctly

 

Flames of Devotion as well?

[jakesmurf]

 

snip

 

Having played with cipher the whole time (lvl 18 right now) i must aggree that hes pretty weak for a long time. then he gets tier 6 and aoe knockdown nukes half the screen an goes up to tier 2... then he gets tier 8, gets time parasite, buffs himself with +250% action speed (im not kidding) and kills himself with scepter modal within seconds if you dont watch his health. cypher goes at least equal to the monk in powerlevel at that point

 

How do you get 250% action speed from Time Parasite alone? 

 

Nevermind, I forgot Time Parasite bounces.  

 

It's really strong.  I made a Cipher adventurer to fool around with it, but I gotta say... I still don't think it's Tier 0/Monk strong.  First off, you've already completed most of the game with a gimped character before you even have access to Tier 8, and your Cipher is basically dead weight before that.  Amplified Wave is pretty decent but it's still Tier 2 or 2.5 until you get Time Parasite.  

 

After you have Time Parasite it's probably Tier 1.  It's still really weird to me though that the saving grace of Cipher is basically a single ability that makes you not want to cast many cipher spells.  The action speed basically begs to be used Auto Attacking since you don't need to spam prones that fast, and once again you've got an entire tree of spells for nothing.  To me it's just a really poorly executed class, even if it's Tier 1 in extreme lategame (when the game is at it's easiest anyway imo).  

Edited May 16, 2018 by jakesmurf

[divjak]

 

Lion Sprint shows it only give 15 acc to one attack. But actually it gives bonus to all attacks in the duration. Same as all other abilities that grant u bonus for next hit. Dunno if this is intended or they just cannot code it correctly

 

Flames of Devotion as well?

 

flames of devotion doesn't have duration

[drchocapic]

My first run was as a Fanatic (Berserker/Bleak Walker), extremely powerful melee fighter, so much so in fact that it got a little boring by mid-game. Not exactly a subtle class to play and one that tends to approach every fight the same way but if you're looking for a melee damage dealer, it is a very potent choice.

 

I've also used a Chanter/Druid (Beckoner/Fury) extensively. I really like to combine a "classic" caster with Chanter as it gives you something to do (cast spells) while your phrases are building, but I honestly found Fury pretty boring. The fact that the subclass pretty much leaves you with damage spells and not much else in the druid spellbook makes it really lacking in versatility. Chanter obviously is great and the Beckoner is a summoning god but the other Chanter subclasses fit my play-style better.

 

I'm now playing a Chanter/Cipher (Skald/Ascendant) in a fresh run, Chanter is still great (even though Skad doesn't feel as interesting as Troubadour) and Ascendant feels like it will eventually be extremely powerful. So far building Focus is a challenge but in a few levels (and with a better weapon) it's looking really promising.

[Maxzero]

 

 

Lion Sprint shows it only give 15 acc to one attack. But actually it gives bonus to all attacks in the duration. Same as all other abilities that grant u bonus for next hit. Dunno if this is intended or they just cannot code it correctly

 

Flames of Devotion as well?

 

flames of devotion doesn't have duration

 

 

The shared one does. 8 seconds of +20% burn lash to party.

 

Tested the answer is no. Pity might of made Paladins are bit better support wise.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Maxzero

[divjak]

My first run was as a Fanatic (Berserker/Bleak Walker), extremely powerful melee fighter, so much so in fact that it got a little boring by mid-game. Not exactly a subtle class to play and one that tends to approach every fight the same way but if you're looking for a melee damage dealer, it is a very potent choice.

 

I've also used a Chanter/Druid (Beckoner/Fury) extensively. I really like to combine a "classic" caster with Chanter as it gives you something to do (cast spells) while your phrases are building, but I honestly found Fury pretty boring. The fact that the subclass pretty much leaves you with damage spells and not much else in the druid spellbook makes it really lacking in versatility. Chanter obviously is great and the Beckoner is a summoning god but the other Chanter subclasses fit my play-style better.

 

I'm now playing a Chanter/Cipher (Skald/Ascendant) in a fresh run, Chanter is still great (even though Skad doesn't feel as interesting as Troubadour) and Ascendant feels like it will eventually be extremely powerful. So far building Focus is a challenge but in a few levels (and with a better weapon) it's looking really promising.

you will reroll your last build mark my words,, because IMO both subclasses, skald and ascendant work better when combined with martial subclass, rogue, monk, fighter or barb. 

you need crit gain, full attacks when dual wielding, or carnage.

 

I would say skald/monk, rogue or barb, and ascednat with rogue, fighter or paladin 

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[divjak]

 

 

 

Lion Sprint shows it only give 15 acc to one attack. But actually it gives bonus to all attacks in the duration. Same as all other abilities that grant u bonus for next hit. Dunno if this is intended or they just cannot code it correctly

 

Flames of Devotion as well?

 

flames of devotion doesn't have duration

 

 

The shared one does. 8 seconds of +20% burn lash to party.

 

Tested the answer is no. Pity might of made Paladins are bit better support wise.

 

because duration is for allies, if  i remember correct, that barb one thing is an upgrade from a talent that lets you run fast and ignore engagements for a time

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[Maxzero]

One idea I have been messing around with is a Berzerker/Wizard.

 

Basically your Fury plus Spirit shield is +5 armour. Once you get to level 4 you get Thick Skinned and Bulwark for +6 total armour versus physical and +10 total for elemental damage. With a Fine medium armour you are looking at 14 physical armour and 18 elemental.

 

Throw in all the long lasting Deflection buffs to not get hit and Expose and Merciless Gaze for -2 pen and +15 hit to crit (45% total) to boost your offence.

 

Later on it gets stupid with Llengrad's safeguard (+20 def and +5 armour for 60 seconds). Get the sword to stop confusing and then you can use the AoE fear spells to perma terrify everyone around you.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Maxzero

[divjak]

One idea I have been messing around with is a Berzerker/Wizard.

 

Basically your Fury plus Spirit shield is +5 armour. Once you get to level 4 you get Thick Skinned and Bulwark for +6 armour versus physical and +10 for elemental damage. Throw in all the long lasting Deflection buffs, Expose and Merciless Gaze for -2 pen and +15 hit to crit (45% total).

 

Late ron it gets stupid with Llengrad;s safeguard. Get the sword to stop confusing and then you can use the AoE fear spells to perma terrify everyone around you.

well I think its overkill, also you are trading that much resources into redundant  defences rather than damage and utility, and you need to buff all the time at start of the combat, but thats not a problem with ai scripts tho  

Edited May 16, 2018 by divjak

[CountGrishnackh]

 

 

snip

 

Having played with cipher the whole time (lvl 18 right now) i must aggree that hes pretty weak for a long time. then he gets tier 6 and aoe knockdown nukes half the screen an goes up to tier 2... then he gets tier 8, gets time parasite, buffs himself with +250% action speed (im not kidding) and kills himself with scepter modal within seconds if you dont watch his health. cypher goes at least equal to the monk in powerlevel at that point

 

How do you get 250% action speed from Time Parasite alone? 

 

it gives 50% per enemy hit for some reason