[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Yria]

On the other hand, Iovara's resistance to the idea of going back to the Wheel now sort of makes sence lol. Within the new lore that would indeed make her a cog in the gods' system.

 

Still, I hate such retcons. 

[Ryz009]

 

And, of course, back to the gods - are they going to do anything? Will they just make things worse (signs point to yes)?

 

Yea, it was weird in POE2, everybody was impotent to do anything about Eothas - the Watcher, the gods, the factions. The gods at least were much more potent and willing to meddle in the past. Dunno why they suddenly decided to sit this one out, especially considering their whole existence was on the line.

 

 

They really should've explained Eothas resistance to them better. Make it so the only way they could've feasibly killed him would've been to destroy the world itself and themselves. So at least then self-preservation would've stayed their hand.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

Also, the gods in the sequel were a bunch of toothless sissies squabbing with each other, I liked them more in POE1, they seemed more potent and confident then.

I kind of liked the Greek god-esque squabbling, but their utter uselessness was baffling. They apparently have enough power to pull moons down from the sky, but when Eothas threatens the world and their existence, they decide to just send a mortal to spy on him? That's it?

 

I'm struggling to think of a way Eothas's plan could end well. Right now, only the Republics (and possibly the Dyrwood) have any kind of animancy research going on. If and when other nations hear about what happened in the Archipelago, are they going to A) believe it, B) overcome centuries of prejudice and support the practice of animancy, C) co-operate with the other nations trying to solve the problem? I have my doubts. Can the Republics solve this alone? How long do they have? Will the government make this a priority or get sidetracked by other, more immediate, more tangible issues?

 

A related question is just how obvious the effects of destroying the Wheel will be. If they're not noticeable enough, they're going to get ignored by most of the world's population. If they're too noticeable (See: Hollowborn crisis), there's going to be wide-spread chaos.

 

And, of course, back to the gods - are they going to do anything? Will they just make things worse (signs point to yes)?

 

 

I'm waiting for the DLC where it's revealed that this was all just a rather fantastic dream that Berath gave the Watcher while they were unconscious.

[Zeitzbach]

From the way I look at it

 

In PoE 1, we learn more about the god

In PoE 2, we learn more about the conflict of the gods and they try to ask for your help

In PoE 3, we will probably learn more about why the Engwithan had to create the machine, the wheel and transforms themselves into gods, resulting in the gods slowly dying for real and we have to work with them to save the world.

 

This is somewhat spoiled by the ending slide where the your char thinks it's okay to go back to Dyrwood at the end for a new life. it's rather obvious nothing interesting is going to happen there anymore. If anything, this will probably result in some kind of D:OS 2 god vs threat from another dimension story if they make PoE3 unless we get to completely make a whole new char with a clean slate. Blame Animancy while at it.

[Pawel.pc44]

I don't remember if it explained exactly how things worked before the Wheel, but here's how I understood it:

 

If the reincarnation cycle was created by the Engwithans, then there were no souls being reborn.  You'd be born once, die, and move into the Beyond, where you'd remain for eternity- much like we heard would happen if the Wheel is destroyed.  This would also imply that even births were finite before the Wheel- eventually, there would be no new souls to be born, and kith would simply die out.  The Wheel allows for used souls to be recycled, draining a little bit for the gods in the process.  This effectively turns them from a finite resource into a nearly infinite one.

 

And lastly the ending suggests that somebody (animancers) can later fix the Wheel. What. The. Ef. What was the point of breaking it (and the whole plot of the game) in the first place then?

 

Fixing the Wheel is actually the core of Eothas's plan.  It's a test for the kith- they're meant to find a solution to the Wheel's destruction, and in the process they'll grow beyond the need for the gods.  It also gives them an opportunity to stop powering the gods leaving them out of the new Wheel, if the kith don't want to continue serving them after learning the truth about their creation.

 

This makes no sense at all. If 'gods' and reincarnation were created by Engwithans, who created souls and everything else?

[Aramintai]

This makes no sense at all. If 'gods' and reincarnation were created by Engwithans, who created souls and everything else?

Wait for POE3 and a new retcon where Engwithans created the souls, and POE4 where Engwithans created Eora   

[Veevoir]

 

I don't remember if it explained exactly how things worked before the Wheel, but here's how I understood it:

 

If the reincarnation cycle was created by the Engwithans, then there were no souls being reborn.  You'd be born once, die, and move into the Beyond, where you'd remain for eternity- much like we heard would happen if the Wheel is destroyed.  This would also imply that even births were finite before the Wheel- eventually, there would be no new souls to be born, and kith would simply die out.  The Wheel allows for used souls to be recycled, draining a little bit for the gods in the process.  This effectively turns them from a finite resource into a nearly infinite one.

 

And lastly the ending suggests that somebody (animancers) can later fix the Wheel. What. The. Ef. What was the point of breaking it (and the whole plot of the game) in the first place then?

 

Fixing the Wheel is actually the core of Eothas's plan.  It's a test for the kith- they're meant to find a solution to the Wheel's destruction, and in the process they'll grow beyond the need for the gods.  It also gives them an opportunity to stop powering the gods leaving them out of the new Wheel, if the kith don't want to continue serving them after learning the truth about their creation.

 

This makes no sense at all. If 'gods' and reincarnation were created by Engwithans, who created souls and everything else?

 

Whoever it was - abandoned Eora or is inactive/ does not intervene. The artificial gods do not exclude existence of actual gods.

[Aramintai]

Whoever it was - abandoned Eora or is inactive/ does not intervene. The artificial gods do not exclude existence of actual gods.

It was mentioned in POE1 that Engwithans searched for the real gods and found none, so they've decided to create them. Though they may be artificial ones but they're very real at least.

[Veevoir]

 

Whoever it was - abandoned Eora or is inactive/ does not intervene. The artificial gods do not exclude existence of actual gods.

It was mentioned in POE1 that Engwithans searched for the real gods and found none, so they've decided to create them. Though they may be artificial ones but they're very real at least.

 

It is mentioned, but it still doesn't mean there are no gods. They just found none. Maybe there were gods who created Eora and then just left? I mean, look at RL - we have as much proof of gods not existing as we have proof of any god existing - so literally none for both options. We could as easily conclude "there are no gods", jsut would need to convince more population to that belief. There is a reason why religion is in sphere of belief not facts.

 

I interpreted it more like they were disappointed by lack of any response from the gods and concluded there are none. Or if they are - they don't give a **** which is as depressing. So they made gods that "work properly". (sidenote: I still don't get why they create the trollgod Rymrgand, he basically behaves like he was made from those Engwithans that opposed the whole concept and just wanted to die out. Every god has a role that directly ties with kith somehow, Rymrgand is actually above that and above other gods in a way. He is a force of nature - entropy)

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Veevoir

[Harry Easter]

Okay, my two cents on the issue:

 

1) I think there was reincarnation before the wheel, because souls were always drawn to adra. The only difference was that reincarnation was way more chaotic and destructive (look for example at those bloodthirsty druids in Twin Elms, who sacrifice other people to strengthen other people souls).

 

2) The Engwithans created the Wheel and the gods and established a perfect system for people to die and come back and keep souls strong. Problem: the gods grew corrupt and are now more about fighting each other than doing their job. The wheel is more like an automatic system nobody needs to take care of.

 

3) With Eothas destroying the wheel kith and gods have to create a new system, if they want to survive. There will still be rebirths, but it takes more time for the souls since they don't have the guidance of the gods anymore. That's why animancers, watchers and people like Xoti now get more important: they can guide the souls back through the adra into reincarnation and they have to build a new system.

 

4) The gods can't do **** about Eothas plan because their bodies were destroyed a long time ago. I also think, that they are afraid of getting absorbed by the big Adra-statue that Eothas has become.

 

So I think it makes enough sense, but  this change came one game too early in my opinion, after what we learned in Pillars 1. On the other hand: this is a big gamechanger and I'm curious how Obsidian will use this in Pillars 3.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Harry Easter

[Aramintai]

The only difference was that reincarnation was way more chaotic and destructive (look for example at those bloodthirsty druids in Twin Elms, who sacrifice other people to strengthen other people souls).

 

That's just speculation with no evidence. And those druids worshiped the artificial gods, just like the rest of Eora, so they were doing their rituals within the system.

 

 

2) The Engwithans created the Wheel and the gods and established a perfect system for people to die and come back and keep souls strong. Problem: the gods grew corrupt and are now more about fighting each other than doing their job. The wheel is more like an automatic system nobody needs to take care of.

That much is implied in POE 2, yes.

 

 

There will still be rebirths, but it takes more time for the souls since they don't have the guidance of the gods anymore. That's why animancers, watchers and people like Xoti now get more important: they can guide the souls back through the adra into reincarnation and they have to build a new system.

No, it is stated in POE2 that with the Wheel broken there will be no rebirths, souls will go to the Beyond and won't return. And sooner or later Eora will be void of life, because souls won't return to inhabit the bodies. So it's very ****ed up now thanks to Eothas. 

And yes, somebody will have to fix the Wheel pretty quickly or everything will die out. Eothas called it as his test to kith. What a douche  . 

 

 

4) The gods can't do **** about Eothas plan because their bodies were destroyed a long time ago. I also think, that they are afraid of getting absorbed by the big Adra-statue that Eothas has become.

No, it is stated in one of the dialogues with the gods that they still could but decided not to inhabit physical bodies anymore after Ondra killed Abydon. Too afraid to start killing each other again? Kinda weak point considering Eothas threatened their whole existence. And now they're ****ed too because breaking the Wheel also broke the In-Between from which they siphoned souls to sustain themselves.

Edited May 13, 2018 by Aramintai

[zezia]

 

The only difference was that reincarnation was way more chaotic and destructive (look for example at those bloodthirsty druids in Twin Elms, who sacrifice other people to strengthen other people souls).

 

That's just speculation with no evidence. And those druids worshiped the artificial gods, just like the rest of Eora, so they were doing their rituals within the system.

 

 

2) The Engwithans created the Wheel and the gods and established a perfect system for people to die and come back and keep souls strong. Problem: the gods grew corrupt and are now more about fighting each other than doing their job. The wheel is more like an automatic system nobody needs to take care of.

That much is implied in POE 2, yes.

 

 

There will still be rebirths, but it takes more time for the souls since they don't have the guidance of the gods anymore. That's why animancers, watchers and people like Xoti now get more important: they can guide the souls back through the adra into reincarnation and they have to build a new system.

No, it is stated in POE2 that with the Wheel broken there will be no rebirths, souls will go to the Beyond and won't return. And sooner or later Eora will be void of life, because souls won't return to inhabit the bodies. So it's very ****ed up now thanks to Eothas. 

And yes, somebody will have to fix the Wheel pretty quickly or everything will die out. Eothas called it as his test to kith. What a douche  . 

 

 

4) The gods can't do **** about Eothas plan because their bodies were destroyed a long time ago. I also think, that they are afraid of getting absorbed by the big Adra-statue that Eothas has become.

No, it is stated in one of the dialogues with the gods that they still could but decided not to inhabit physical bodies anymore after Ondra killed Abydon. Too afraid to start killing each other again? Kinda weak point considering Eothas threatened their whole existence. And now they're ****ed too because breaking the Wheel also broke the In-Between from which they siphoned souls to sustain themselves.

 

 

So we will be looking at a worldwide Hollowborn crisis?

[Aramintai]

 

So we will be looking at a worldwide Hollowborn crisis?

Looks like it.

[zezia]

 

 

So we will be looking at a worldwide Hollowborn crisis?

Looks like it.

 

If that's the case what the hell was Eothas thinking?! This could very well lead to widespread social upheaval that could easily distract the nations of Eora on trying to find a solution. 

 

Also since the Wheel is now broken this means that ALL souls will not be reborn so that include animals? Are there going to be hollowborn animals now? Good lord, this could very well have massive repercussions across the world.

 

Animal husbandry - gone

Fishing - gone

Eora's Ecology - gone 

[Sotof]

Honestly, I think the simplest version would be that whatever the Engwithans did to create the Wheel also destroyed the previous process (who knows if even that had been natural?) that existed before. It would not just hijack the process that came before the Wheel, but replace it entirely. As for souls getting destroyed then either is probably true: a certain frosty fellow is eating them or Eora is not a closed system.

[BrokenMask]

I dunno if this happens if you aren't playing as godlike, but at least if you are playing as one, Berath notes that gods can posses their godlike children in order to take physical form which kills the godlikes in process. So uh, thats probably why they aren't in favor of taking physical form again since some of them do actually seem to care for their godlike children

[Aramintai]

I dunno if this happens if you aren't playing as godlike, but at least if you are playing as one, Berath notes that gods can posses their godlike children in order to take physical form which kills the godlikes in process. So uh, thats probably why they aren't in favor of taking physical form again since some of them do actually seem to care for their godlike children

No, that wasn't exactly what they've said. They've said that, for whatever reason, they decided to stop manifesting in physical bodies after Ondra killed Abydon. Too much collateral damage maybe?

But they've discussed possessing godlike as a possible ditch plan if what Eothas was planning on doing would turn really bad for them.

[PsychoBlonde]

 

This makes no sense at all. If 'gods' and reincarnation were created by Engwithans, who created souls and everything else?

Wait for POE3 and a new retcon where Engwithans created the souls, and POE4 where Engwithans created Eora   

 

 

Was their leader called Xenu?

[PsychoBlonde]

 

I dunno if this happens if you aren't playing as godlike, but at least if you are playing as one, Berath notes that gods can posses their godlike children in order to take physical form which kills the godlikes in process. So uh, thats probably why they aren't in favor of taking physical form again since some of them do actually seem to care for their godlike children

No, that wasn't exactly what they've said. They've said that, for whatever reason, they decided to stop manifesting in physical bodies after Ondra killed Abydon. Too much collateral damage maybe?

But they've discussed possessing godlike as a possible ditch plan if what Eothas was planning on doing would turn really bad for them.

 

 

They discussed EATING the godlike for power if things went really bad.

 

I suspect the major problem with embodying is that the urge to murder each other becomes overwhelming, after all, Ondra blew up Abydon back when the gods were embodied, the other gods blew up Woedica, and Magran blew up Eothas TWICE.  Apparently, when they don't have bodies, they can't kill each other, so they just bicker.

[Aramintai]

They discussed EATING the godlike for power if things went really bad.

Even worse. Damn those guys! 

[Veevoir]

Actually.. They discussed both. God can posses a godlike (they do have a strong link to them, chat with Teheku a bit and peer into his soul to see what I mean) but can also suck all their godlike children dry if necessary. 

[Zeitzbach]

Now I want to see a Wael godlike for this eating/stealing body.

 

"Is it a boy or a girl" - Professor Oak.

[Ad Hoc]

Berath warned that Eothas' plan would leave all souls stuck in the In-Between, not able to go to the Beyond. It's possible the In-Between was a creation of the Engwithans as a sort of holding station to suck the energy they needed before throwing them out into the beyond. It's mentioned that entropy is Rymgrand's work, so this is probably where he does his monkey business as well. Before the Engwithans, souls would go straight to the Beyond and back via the adra pillars.

 

The task for modern-day animancers is to reverse-engineer Engwithan technology to delete the In-Between (Possibly including the gods). This is all speculation; this series' cosmology is seriously confusing.

[BrokenMask]

I get feeling Ydwin might have been able to explain how it works better if she had been a companion <_< I mean, clearly her experiment to separate herself from wheel worked even if she has to consume soul essence to survive. Considering she is a scientist, if she was companion I'd assume she could have explained how that works which would have given more insight on In-Between, Beyond and Souls.

[Aramintai]

Before the Engwithans, souls would go straight to the Beyond and back via the adra pillars.

No, it is not known what was before Engwithans but it was clearly said in the game that the whole Wheel, not just In-Between, will be broken and souls won't go anywhere after the Beyond. And sooner or later Eora will die out because souls won't return to inhabit the bodies. It's a dumb ass mortal trial Eothas gives kith at the end - to fix the Wheel or to solve this problem another way, or die along with the gods.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Aramintai