[POTD Difficulty] Launch NOT tuned discussion thread

[xzar_monty]

I did my playthrough approximately a year after PoE 1 had come out. I thought it was really good. Giving this one a go in, August, maybe?

[Zap Gun For Hire]

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

No.  Worrying about fine-tuning PotD is literally one of the last things they should do, IMO.

 

I would be quite irked to find out they cut features just to spend more time on something to satisfy the difficulty fetishists* out there.  Especially since balance gets tweaked for months (if not a year) post-release. 

 

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

[Cerulean Shaman]

Josh has said a number of times that PoTD is not a huge priority in the grand scheme of things. The fact is, not a huge population will actually ever finish a PoTD run. That being said, I believe it will get its due as the game goes on. I'll just play Veteran first, then maybe try to complete a 3 person party. 

/

Pfft. I'm going in PoTD blind first run, balance be damned. That's what I did in Pillars, that's what I regretted wholeheartedly, that's what I beat the game on the first time anyway. Using blood and tears as a lube for an after-game victory jerk is its own special reward. 

 

Once they fix it I'll probably work on stuff like triple crown and solo/duo runs with powerful builds to try against the tuned difficulty. I actually want to 100% the achievements for this.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Cerulean Shaman

[xzar_monty]

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

 

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

[Takolin]

 

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

 

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

 

 

Different class, different party composition, different choices made during the game, different difficulty setting, solo game,...

[TheMetaphysician]

 

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

 

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

 

 

I did a couple, but I have to like the story enough to want to hear it more than once. I wouldn't do another playthrough solely for gameplay purposes. (That's why I have to plan out my class builds and everything beforehand, because the first time is the main playthrough.)

 

I'm the type who reads fantasy fiction books more than once, or watches movies more than once. It is the same. (Interestingly, I don't like to make really different story choices, because it causes cognitive dissonance if the story goes differently. "That's not how it goes!" the little kid in me shouts at me. I have to play more or the less the same character role-play wise, even if the class is different.)

Edited May 6, 2018 by TheMetaphysician

[BalkothTheFeared]

 

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

 

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

 

 

Different builds and different outcomes for the endings/sidequests that you didn't see the first time.

 

From what I also know, there are going to be NG+ options as well to add complications or bonuses for another playthrough.

[PatrioticChief]

I have a ton of respect for his honesty. Yeah it's not ideal but I'm glad he's got some stones to just admit it is what it is instead of giving us the PR corporate BS. 

[The Sharmat]

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yes, but...

 

It's rarely clear you've overstretched until it's too late to do anything but damage control. There's a reason every game has cut content.

[The Sharmat]

 

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs).  But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

 

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

 

Besides the different choices and mechanics of a new character, if a story is any good it's worth experiencing more than once. There's things that can only be appreciated on a replay. For instance the entire prologue and first little bit of act 1 actually states the thesis and themes of the game directly but it's hard to tell until you've been to Sun in Shadow.

[Frog Man]

 

 

 

In the greater sort of, view of the game... does this mean they spread themselves too thin? Surely they should cut the features down and try finish the ones they have rather than add more and leave them unfinished?

* NOTE: I am something of a difficulty fetishist (though not on the first couple of playthroughs). But even I realize that it's a side challenge that the vaaaaaaast majority of the user base not only won't care about, but would be upset to find out that things were cut just so folks like us could scratch an itch.

 

By the way, it would be extremely interesting to know what percentage of players do more than one playthrough (you mentioned "first couple", and this caught my eye). In my view, PoE 1 had a replay value of exactly zero: there was nothing random in the game, and the world was totally static except for the choices you made as a player.

 

I really liked playing the game, but having got to the end, I can't see why I would ever want to start another game. (No criticism implied here.)

Besides the different choices and mechanics of a new character, if a story is any good it's worth experiencing more than once. There's things that can only be appreciated on a replay. For instance the entire prologue and first little bit of act 1 actually states the thesis and themes of the game directly but it's hard to tell until you've been to Sun in Shadow.

I’d actually be interested to hear you elaborate (even though it is a tad off topic)

[The Sharmat]

I can't quote most of it from memory but the opening narration scroll has Odema the caravan leader struggling to lead the caravan through the dark"looking to the stars for answers" but them "giving no hint of what they know". He's doing it to navigate and judge the weather but the stars are also a stand in for the heavens/gods. The whole game main plot is about conflicts arising from people stumbling along trying to find answers in a universe with no clear ones. There's your main theme.

Not long at all after you have the dude that greets you in front of the hanging tree in Gilded Vale saying "A bad cure is worse than none at all." in reference to charlatans peddling false solutions to the Hollowborn. But narratively this also refers to the Engwithans' solution of manufacturing artificial gods to force clear meanings on the world. There's your thesis statement.

 

I mean it's very lit 101 but not bad for a video game.

[GuyNice]

Not long at all after you have the dude that greets you in front of the hanging tree in Gilded Vale saying "A bad cure is worse than none at all." in reference to charlatans peddling false solutions to the Hollowborn. But narratively this also refers to the Engwithans' solution of manufacturing artificial gods to force clear meanings on the world. There's your thesis statement.

 

I mean it's very lit 101 but not bad for a video game.

I'm ashamed to admit I didn't replay the game enough to catch this (I played several playthroughs simultaneously, but only finished 1). So thank you for posting it. Makes me appreciate Obsidian's craft that much more, and as an aside a good reminder to bloody pay more attention (and play to completion sooner) in Deadfire. 

[The Sharmat]

I mean there's more stuff in the first act like that too, especially if you take certain conversation options with the Fangs that attack the caravan. And there's the whole bit where every one of Maerwald's lives including the current one was at least claiming to do what he thought the Gods wanted, even when literally at war with himself; which is kinda the big in-game counterpoint to Thaos saying people need them to restrain their darker natures. It's really act 2 that's pretty aimless from a narrative standpoint.

[whiskiz]

Jesus, never heard of a game that released without all difficulties being properly balanced, having to choose between difficulty balance and bug fixing with the difficulties not being balanced fully on release.

 

Ee-gad...

[Pidesco]

Jesus, never heard of a game that released without all difficulties being properly balanced, having to choose between difficulty balance and bug fixing with the difficulties not being balanced fully on release.

 

Ee-gad...

 

It's actually pretty normal.  Lack of balance is a very common problem with games, especially with difficulty levels, considering that in many games difficulty levels are implemented more as an afterthought. Let's just raise monster HP/deploy more enemies without thought, because almost everyone just plays on normal and we can't justify extra dev time for this is not an unusual thing.

[GuyNice]

 

Jesus, never heard of a game that released without all difficulties being properly balanced, having to choose between difficulty balance and bug fixing with the difficulties not being balanced fully on release.

 

Ee-gad...

 

It's actually pretty normal.  Lack of balance is a very common problem with games, especially with difficulty levels, considering that in many games difficulty levels are implemented more as an afterthought. Let's just raise monster HP/deploy more enemies without thought, because almost everyone just plays on normal and we can't justify extra dev time for this is not an unusual thing.

 

Agreed, if anything Deadfire seems to be shaping up to be more polished than most Obsidian games at release, the only difference is how responsive and candid Josh Sawyer is compared to basically any other project lead in the industry. Honestly it is so refreshing to have a genuine discourse with a game's developer, I'm willing to forgive far more issues at launch, although the game seems to be in decent shape regardless. I would be far more upset with the issues if they tried to pretend they weren't there. I completely agree that fixing bugs is a higher priority, and I have faith Obsidian will issue meaningful patches not long after release (both due to the nature of the issue and their excellent track record with fixing PoE).

 

That said, I can't wait to dive head first into PotD, warts and all. I think erring on the side of too easy is actually better, since worst case it'll only be a bit harder than Veteran, but you could still make progress. Much better than having your progress completely halted or having to scrap your playthrough due to a badly overtuned encounter on the critical path, at least in my opinion.

[Madscientist]

Do you remember the good old days when all games were perfectly balanced?

Like the IE games or arcanum.

 

Wait a sec . . . you really want to play a mage -> fighter, you give sword profiencies to your fighter and want to dual class to cleric, your mage has low int and you really want to play PST with a fighter who puts all of his points in str, con and dex?

Yes, I said its balanced . . .  but only if you know the OP combinations

 

 

Do you remember the not so old times when PoE1 was released and we had many different threads like " easy mode is too hard", "hard mode is too easy" and "normal mode is too normal". You can look in the PoE1 part of this forum or you can wait some days and see the same stuff here again.

Nietsche was right, history is repeating itself again and again.

 

Now I wait for the tread "story mode has too much story"

[Horniegoat]

Triple crown solo from day 1. Even if achieves are off and its easy in some spots it will be good practice for most of the boss fights which are usually the toughest spots anyway. Alpine drake, Adria drake and Marsh Drakes all being perfect examples from POE1. In my experience the bounties and boss's where the only times I struggled and I imagine they are all ready tough in POE2.

[shadow85]

So basically I won't be getting this game until PoTD is properly tuned to be difficult through out.

[master guardian]

So im playing POTD and steamrolling it.

 

IT IS WWWWAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY TOOOOO EEEEASSSSSSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Im well aware they Josh has said he is fixing it but they need to make this a priority and do it asap because it isnt fun beating entire groups of bad guys with a broom stick on the highest difficulty.

 

Can we please voice our opinion here so they make POTD ALOT harder. Not just a little bit harder they need to make it far harder then it is.

 

Lets all work together for once guys and voice our opinion for the good of this common cause 

 

Please post below that you want POTD FAR  harder then it is.

Edited May 10, 2018 by master guardian

[frogmoth]

I'm with you comrade! 

[EgnLkv]

Count me in!

[whiskiz]

So im playing POTD and steamrolling it.

 

IT IS WWWWAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY TOOOOO EEEEASSSSSSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Im well aware they Josh has said he is fixing it but they need to make this a priority and do it asap because it isnt fun beating entire groups of bad guys with a broom stick on the highest difficulty.

 

Can we please voice our opinion here so they make POTD ALOT harder. Not just a little bit harder they need to make it far harder then it is.

 

Lets all work together for once guys and voice our opinion for the good of this common cause 

 

Please post below that you want POTD FAR  harder then it is.

 

 

As someone who is waiting to get this game, when PotD is fixed/balanced, who has made a thread about my intentions and why and was looking to make another thread to make sure they actually made it properly challenging, since the awesome change of no per rest and we get to use everything per fight - i must say i don't care how long it takes them, as long as it's done properly.

 

See i did my research and saw the fact it wasn't balanced properly all over the forums and elsewhere online, that it'd be balanced post release.

 

So instead i played through PoE 1 to get back into the world and lore, made a thread about how i can't wait to play this, when PotD is out, but that i can wait in hopes it's done properly. Instead of diving in head first then complaining about it.

 

It's your fault you jumped in already and played an imbalanced difficulty that was well documented.

 

Wanting it now to be fixed asap to suit your own ignorant interests, i feel is something only a teenager would demand. No offense.

 

We were warned, now we wait and hope it's done properly.

 

What i would like instead - is to ask they clearly announce when it's done, that they take their time (while dedicating as much time as they can to it, especially if they need to take alot of time) and make sure it's done properly. Make sure it really is like what, the 5th difficulty in a game? Which will then be some of the best gameplay we've ever had, again being able to (and hopefully needing to) use everything every fight just to get by.

 

Some (ignorant people) may not think it's very important, or that it's just for a few wannabe hardcore players or to "stretch our epeen" but the reason why i play the hardest difficulty, is it brings out the mechanics best in a game and it makes the progression that much more rewarding. You need to know how to actually play a game properly and use all of its mechanics - on easier difficulties there's no point in even having half the mechanics in a game, thereby dumbing it down to nothing more than an interactive novel. You never want to dumb down gameplay in a game, or have that as the only option. Which is why i believe higher difficulties are the pinnacle of a game and the reason why balancing the higher difficultys is imo one of the most important things there is.

 

Then, being challenged and needing to know and play the mechanics properly, in a tactical pause-based oldschool RPG with plenty of combat depth and variety? Hell yes.

 

Still can't wait. But i can. But i can't.

Edited May 13, 2018 by whiskiz

[Dorftek]

Yep I'm with whiskiz, I haven't bought the game yet for the same exact reason. I have longed for this game cuz PoE1 is one of my favorite games ever so I rather wait until everything is properly working then diving into it now. And difficulty is a very important factor, steamrolling through a game such as this would just ruin the whole thing completely. So OP do yourself a favor and go play something else for a while