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So the whole game turned bad all of a sudden because one single build option that was unarguably overpowered is impossible now? Guys...

 

And it's me who's asking that (rethorical question) - the guy who posted that build in the first place.

 

Leaving that option in would just lead to a game where everybody who wants to play a melee cipher plays a retaliation cipher. So boring. The game gets actually better once you nerf such things. Just a tiny bit, but better balance makes a game better overall. You just have to let go of that (in this case nonsensical) feeling of loss to see it.

 

Just a sidenote: it's Backlash Beldam (like hag or old woman), not Bedlam (like chaos). :)

Just curious, can you link the build in question, might try it this week while waiting for launch.

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So the whole game turned bad all of a sudden because one single build option that was unarguably overpowered is impossible now? Guys...

 

And it's me who's asking that (rethorical question) - the guy who posted that build in the first place.

 

Leaving that option in would just lead to a game where everybody who wants to play a melee cipher plays a retaliation cipher. So boring. The game gets actually better once you nerf such things. Just a tiny bit, but better balance makes a game better overall. You just have to let go of that (in this case nonsensical) feeling of loss to see it.

 

Just a sidenote: it's Backlash Beldam (like hag or old woman), not Bedlam (like chaos). :)

 

Didn't you say this build is 'not that strong'?

Please google yourfavouritebrowser "example".

 

Do you think destroying Driving Flight + Stunning Shots would improve the game? Honest question, i'm curious.

What about excluding spells from Wildstrike making casters even worse at multiclassing?

 

"everybody who wants to play a melee cipher plays a retaliation cipher"

Playing UP options can be fun too (if a game is single player that is, in MP PvP game you'd be destroyed). I've played Underrail with one of the weakest builds and i had IMMENSE amount of fun.

Game can be as unbalanced as BG2 and still "best PC cRPG evah" (check Metacritic). Game doesn't need so much balance to be good.

Developing single player game is a luxury Obsidian doesn't want to take advantage of.


Vancian =/= per rest.

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I've just come to the realization that some people really like "I WIN" buttons and shortcuts that took away choices. Pretty depressing.

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I know my english is not the best, every single post will be a step closer to proper english, please bear with me until then  :)

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I've just come to the realization that some people really like "I WIN" buttons and shortcuts that took away choices. Pretty depressing.

I don't like those in games, but I would love one in real life. 

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Didn't you say this build is 'not that strong'?

No - well I said it wasn't overly powerful. I did so right after the nerf, but that was the disappointment speaking because I put a lot of work into playing and writing that stuff and suddenly it was gone. Here's what I wrote after some time when I had a chance to think about it:

 

Hi. To be honest it's a massive nerf. But I also have to say that this "exploitation" of retaliation was maybe too powerful and broke the balance more than most other tricks did. So, it's still a viable combination to use weapon & shield for a cipher. And the cipher still has nice powers like Psychovampiric Shield and Pain Link which make this tanky build worthwhile. Some good powers like Antipathetic Field and Mind Lance work best from the front line.

It was quite powerful and maybe a case where there's different opinions.

 

But nobody complained when they nerfed the Jolting Touch/Carnage mechanics. That was clearly OP and when it got removed the game was better.

 

Do you think destroying Driving Flight + Stunning Shots would improve the game?

That depends. If it would make other multiclass options for monk strictly inferior then of course it would be better for the game if that was nerfed. But I doubt that this is gamebreaking. Stunning SHots get paid by Mortification which is not endless - so no endless spamming. That's just nice to have.

Another example: you can still use Kalakoth's Minor Blights + One Handed Style + Swift Flurry to one-shot whole groups of enemies. One shot and everybody in range is dead. That IS gamebreakingly overpowered and needs a nerf. The game would be better without this. Sure, it's fun for a few times but it gets very boring to enter the map, rally up the enemies and do the *pouf-they-are-gone* action.

 

Same goes for the afflicton + Blast in Deadfire. It was nerfed because the rod would be too powerful and the weapons unbalanced if you'd leave that in. Might be that it was not gamebreaking, but the game hardly got worse because of this nerf.

 

I've played Underrail with one of the weakest builds and i had IMMENSE amount of fun.

I've played Baskeball against 5-year olds and for about 10 minutes I had IMMENSE amounts of fun because I was so OP. After that it got pretty lame though...

 

I played Basketball against Gunther Behnke and friends and I had IMMENSE amounts of fun although I was really bad compared to them - but every point felt like a huge victory - but I wouldn't want to play like that all the time.

 

It's totally possible to play a game with OP or UP builds and for some it may be even fun to do so longer than a few hours.

 

The statement that I questioned was that the game is bad because balancing happens.

And I didn't say that a game is bad if balancing does not happen.

 

Both statements are balderdash in my opinion.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Speaking of super fan:

 

You obviously didn't read my critical posts when the beta came out... I mean Gromnir screamed "hyperbole" more than once... ;)

 

 

point o' personal privilege: you would be hard pressed to find an exclamation point in a Gromnir post save for our traditional send-off line.  so "scream" might be an example o', well, hyperbole.  accuse us o' being condescending, arrogant and dismissive would not shock us as is the typical litany we see and is some support for such accusations.  have also been accused o' being "cold" more than once.  mean?  frequent.

 

eye wink aside *insert eye roll here* am thinking boeroer would indeed benefit from a smidge o' self reflection as his game observations would be more convincing with a bit less "super fan."  

 

now feel free to go back to... well, am honest not certain what is happening with this thread's last half page or so, but feel free to return to it. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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makes us wonder if boeroer is actual aimee mann.

 

if so, belated apologies. it were the early 90s and we were a bit less mature and we shouldn't have ghosted you as we did.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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makes us wonder if boeroer is actual aimee mann.

 

if so, belated apologies. it were the early 90s and we were a bit less mature and we shouldn't have ghosted you as we did.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

So... the catchphrase is meant to be post-coital?

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makes us wonder if boeroer is actual aimee mann.

 

if so, belated apologies. it were the early 90s and we were a bit less mature and we shouldn't have ghosted you as we did.

 

HA! Good Fun!

So you were that guy in the ocherous bathrobe who wanted to show me his "young snake"? And I was like:

aimee-mann-85.jpg

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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So... the catchphrase is meant to be post-coital?

 

knee-jerk response were, "no."

 

however, while am decided not freudian, we can see how our traditional exeunt would work from such a pov.  so sure, go with post-coital. will make a few o' our posts more colorful and others a bit more disturbing, but such would be, as it always is...

 

HA! Good Fun!  

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"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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So the whole game turned bad all of a sudden because one single build option that was unarguably overpowered is impossible now? Guys...

I see even you are capable of making that most classic mistake.  You are applying logic, in an forum thread on the internet, on a niche website dedicated to a rules/mechanics heavy RPG.

 

That blunder is only slightly less famous than engaging in a land war in Asia.

 

Seriously though people, there is 0 reason to believe Deadfire will not be  more successful and well received than Eternity 1.  Reviewers who got early review copies, and have tweeted their thoughts, have all basically universally liked the game.  I recall one where the guy said it was "a game of the year contender". 

 

Additionally the Backer Beta at this point is worth less than monopoly money.  We know it is versions behind, we know they have adjusted the gameplay since that version likely multiple times.  Hell, we know it was not the most recent version of the game on the day they released it as the latest backer beta even.

 

So we should probably stop holding it up as an example of how the game will play in all regards.  It didn't hold water in Eternity 1, it won't in Deadfire.

 

But to avoid falling into the logic pit trap myself.....   God Deadfire is gonna suck!  If only the MC was Commander Shepard (from ME2 obviously), the game had 50% VO only, and Rammstein had made the main theme song.  Then this game would like rock for real!

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So the whole game turned bad all of a sudden because one single build option that was unarguably overpowered is impossible now? Guys...

I see even you are capable of making that most classic mistake.  You are applying logic, in an forum thread on the internet, on a niche website dedicated to a rules/mechanics heavy RPG.

 

That blunder is only slightly less famous than engaging in a land war in Asia.

 

Seriously though people, there is 0 reason to believe Deadfire will not be  more successful and well received than Eternity 1.  Reviewers who got early review copies, and have tweeted their thoughts, have all basically universally liked the game.  I recall one where the guy said it was "a game of the year contender". 

 

Additionally the Backer Beta at this point is worth less than monopoly money.  We know it is versions behind, we know they have adjusted the gameplay since that version likely multiple times.  Hell, we know it was not the most recent version of the game on the day they released it as the latest backer beta even.

 

So we should probably stop holding it up as an example of how the game will play in all regards.  It didn't hold water in Eternity 1, it won't in Deadfire.

 

But to avoid falling into the logic pit trap myself.....   God Deadfire is gonna suck!  If only the MC was Commander Shepard (from ME2 obviously), the game had 50% VO only, and Rammstein had made the main theme song.  Then this game would like rock for real!

 

 

Wait... you can't play as Shepard?!?  :woot:

 

Now I'm worried.

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So the whole game turned bad all of a sudden because one single build option that was unarguably overpowered is impossible now? Guys...

I see even you are capable of making that most classic mistake.  You are applying logic, in an forum thread on the internet, on a niche website dedicated to a rules/mechanics heavy RPG.

 

That blunder is only slightly less famous than engaging in a land war in Asia.

 

Seriously though people, there is 0 reason to believe Deadfire will not be  more successful and well received than Eternity 1.  Reviewers who got early review copies, and have tweeted their thoughts, have all basically universally liked the game.  I recall one where the guy said it was "a game of the year contender". 

 

Additionally the Backer Beta at this point is worth less than monopoly money.  We know it is versions behind, we know they have adjusted the gameplay since that version likely multiple times.  Hell, we know it was not the most recent version of the game on the day they released it as the latest backer beta even.

 

So we should probably stop holding it up as an example of how the game will play in all regards.  It didn't hold water in Eternity 1, it won't in Deadfire.

 

But to avoid falling into the logic pit trap myself.....   God Deadfire is gonna suck!  If only the MC was Commander Shepard (from ME2 obviously), the game had 50% VO only, and Rammstein had made the main theme song.  Then this game would like rock for real!

 

 

Wait... you can't play as Shepard?!?  :woot:

 

Now I'm worried.

 

Wait... WHAT!? How can you have Mass Effect: Deadfire without Shepard!?? They're prolly going to replace Garrus and Tali too.  ;(

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Wait... WHAT!? How can you have Mass Effect: Deadfire without Shepard!?? They're prolly going to replace Garrus and Tali too.  ;(

WHAT? Replacing Garrus?  NO BROOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Look at the difference between icewind dale (witch released after BG2) and BG2

 

BG2 :

 

- Story driven

- narrative driven

- companion driven

- huge enormous game 

- able to shape the world around you

 

ICE WIND DALE 1 AND 2:

 

- dungeon orientated

- very combat heavy

- long long long grind

- no companions that impacted narrative

 

The end result:

 

BG2 - the best RPG of all time BY FAR

 

ICEWIND DALE - killed of interest in crpgs until Pillars of Eternity

Thare's no grind in ice wind dale 2

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ROFL at the idea that IWD2 killed cRPGs.  There is a lot of game history as to why the genre died, and it has nothing to do with the quality of IWD2.

 

Story time:

 

In the year 2000 the PS2 released, and became huge.  Rumors were circulating that Microsoft was making a console.  Sega left the hardware business because they knew they couldn't compete with Sony, Nintendo, and MS simultaneously.  Meanwhile on PC we were at the tail end of a golden age.  An era of great RPGs, RTS games, shooters, and so on.  The PS2 actually hurt the PC market badly, and when the Xbox (more the 360) released some more PC gamers left.  Even more left with the 360 imho, but I don't have the numbers.  The developers on PC that foresaw the changing of the winds made moves to make console games.  Bethesda and Bioware in particular.  Thus they quit making PC cRPGs, and focused on a bigger market.  The devs that didn't see what was happening, or didn't move fast enough to move to console in time, went under.  Examples Interplay and Troika.  There was a lonely 3rd category of developer though, and they released a game in 2004 that made them immune to this whole situation.  IE Blizzard made WoW. 

 

Oh, and another PC dev survived by creating a unified patching system for their, and other company's titles.  This was Valve and Steam.  Epic started making Console games, idSoft made the move with Doom 3, and so on and so on.  However, if it weren't for Valve I don't know if PC gaming would have survived.  I like to think so, but I am unsure. 

 

Consoles killed western cRPGs, not IWD2.  Also, NWN2 came out after IWD2, and even though it isn't an IE game... It's still a cRPG.

 

Watch any interview about the death of Interplay and Black Isle, or an interview about Troika.  They all mention the move to consoles.  It has much more bearing on the death of the genre than IWD2 could ever dream to. 

 

Also, IWD2 is great.  I dare anyone to make a game that good, and that big, in 9 months.  Those devs deserve high praise for it. 

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Right.

 

But to be fair: maybe master guardian meant that IWD killed his own personal interest in cRPGs until PoE. 

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I think what i was getting at was that the icewind dale series failed to captivate the the market enough for gaming studios to keep releasing more games like BG2 and IWD.

 

and yeah history has obviously proven that i am 100% correct . There hasnt been anything like it up untill Pillars 1 was released.

 

How you go from best RPG of all time  (BG2) to nothing else made like it for well over a decade is beyond my understanding.

 

Pretty big disaster from my point of view because CRPGS are the only games i like.

Edited by master guardian

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I think what i was getting at was that the icewind dale series failed to captivate the the market enough for gaming studios to keep releasing more games like BG2 and IWD.

 

and yeah history has obviously proven that i am 100% correct . There hasnt been anything like it up untill Pillars 1 was released. 

 

Pretty big disaster from my point of view because CRPGS are the only games i like.

 

I still don't see how it proves you right.  This sort of game isn't an easy port to consoles, and it never was.  I'm surprised Obsidian did it with PoE 1.  The 5 man party of Deadfire, and slower combat might make 2 better on consoles tbh. 

 

Also, Bioware did a BG spiritual successor in 2009.  It was Dragon Age:  Origins.  Of course they made it with the intentions of being a console game and reduced party size and did all sorts of crazy things to make it work better for consoles.  Hence the difference in the outcome vs the IE games.  Ugh, how I cried when they implemented Aggro/Taunt mechanis in a single player game.  I'm fine with it in MMOs, but it is tedious to play with it in a single player game.  At least to me.  Also, they went full 3d because it was more cinematic, but they also did it because IMHO they were trying to fuse it with a toolkit similar to NWN which did really well.  IMHO, they spread it too thin, but to each their own.

 

Between IWD2 and DA:  O we had 2 NWN games that used RtwP combat, and albeit different in aesthetic they still retain a good portion of the ideas of the IE games.  Save the move to 3.0 and 3.5 respectively.

 

I forgot to mention that there was one more contributing factor to the death of old Isometric RPGs, and that is 3d modeling in games.  It was trendy, people liked it so it sold, and NWN proved the toolkit could pump out a lot more content than building the old Isometric maps.  The devs viewed it as a win/win.  Some of us didn't like it as much, and I have a feeling that you and I might agree on that point.  Although, I appreciated the toolkit giving me tons of content... I still missed the IE games. 

 

The IE games, and all top down 2d rpgs of yesteryear died because of PC gaming waning, consoles blowing up, and 3d graphics.  I still think history is on my side here.  However, we may have to disagree. 

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i couldnt get into the NWN series . I tried and tried but just couldnt do it.

 

TBH i have only ever really enjoyed the BG series and Pillars series.

 

That is 100% fair.  I understand it completely because I felt similarly.  I played NWN when it launched, and beat the OC plus the xpacs.  Then when I was REAAALLY bored I played some of the modules.  A few of which were much better than the Core stuff from Bioware.  NWN2 had MotB, and it is worth playing.  Story is fantastic.  It also has some great mod made content.  I thought they both, but the first one more so, were really clunky.  Even at launch.  However, as a D&D nerd... I played them.  Sometimes your group just can't make the time. 

 

I felt the same way with Dragon Age.  It felt clunky too.  Something about the IE games, and PoE for that matter... feels so smooth.  It's like top shelf liquor.  No burn, and makes you feel all warm and toasty.  I love the IE games.  All 5 of them for varying reasons.  I just remember the turmoil in the PC gaming sphere in the early 2000s, and either we lost companies to closing down, or they started making console games, or they focused on a giant MMO i had little interest in.  I use to talk to my friends about the four "B"s of PC games.  Bioware, Black Isle, Blizzard, and Bethesda.  They were the only PC companies I bought games from day 1 at the time.  Man I miss those days.  All of them around 2003 closed, made an MMO empire, or went 3d. 

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I though DA Origins and NWN 2 were great, at least as good as Shadows of Amm.... Shock, horror. But then I also liked the Icewind Dale series.

Bit worried about Deadfire to be honest, hope they haven't stretched themselves thin, and the writing is up to their usual standard. 

But it wouldn't be the first ( or last ) time I'm wrong. So here is to holding thumbs.


"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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In the beginning the forum will sing its praises as is their usual play. But the metacritic rating will not exceed or match Pillars (89). Nor will its steam rating be as high (85% positive)

 

A game can change its setting, it can change its tone, it can change its mechanics, but it will lose fans when it does all 3 in its very next sequel. Many non super fans who did not follow it for weeks or months on end will not understand the need for changes on many mechanics. They will be looking for pillars and will be getting something very different. Many of the reviewers like IGN will probably punish the game's review score for the change in tone.

 

I feel like sales will be similar to the first game but it will not grow the IP in popularity. In the start the game will be great for the beta super fans (Boeroer) who will love it no matter what, and it will be mediocre to the people who liked Pillars but do not like all the changes (myself). I dont think anyone will think its bad well maybe (Sonicmage)

 

I think you have jumped the gun a bit here. You are speaking as though you have a crystal ball witch you obviously dont. 

 

From what i can tell the only noticeable changes are the casting system and resting (mainly how resting affects casting).

 

Yes i do wish they left casting alone but i may possibly be thinking that way because " I would rather stick with what i know", eg now i have to go through the hassle of relearning the casting system again and finding out how it works best. This will take time and could be considered work that i wouldn't have to do had they not changed the casting system hence why im pissed off.

 

Only time will tell if i am happy with the new changes. Even after playing the BETA my mind is not entirely made up on the new changes.

 

Having said that i cant see OBS going backwards with this. They have definitely improved on the narrative, graphics and not included stupid mistakes like they did in pillars one with that second "big " city that was a complete flop. They will have one big "Athkatla" style city now.

 

In my humble opinion what will make Deadfire will be the story and narrative. Will it be as immersive as BG2. This will be the absolute test.

 

The only thing they did was change armor, dual wield pistols, added mechanics like penetration, slowed everything down especially magic with up to 6 seconds of recovery, increased interruption, created subclasses, created multiclasses,  changed most talents into class abilities, remove a character slot, change the tone from a dark corpse littered child soul stolen game into a pirate game with talking swords and bright colorful trees. Thats not much at all. Wait...

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