3 expansions ......really?

[rjshae]

Hopefully the game will hold up well even without the expansions. I'll probably play them during a future replay, so for me their purchase depends on whether it is worth a replay. If I never feel the urge to finish it, then probably I won't bother with the add-ons.

[Amentep]

Fun is fun.  Taking random potshots at users, whether overtly or in a covertly passive aggressive way isn't fun.

 

I just trimmed a lot of swipes at other users out of this thread as well as some spam.  Play nice.

[Voss]

 

Im all for supporting games like deadfire so they are profitable to ensure they are continually made but three expansions? im a but suss on that

 

really they have just chopped the main game up and split it into 4 different sales (the main game and the three expanions)

 

i m praying the main game is big enough to enjoy without the expansions

 

I dont view these expansions as expansions really i view them as a revenue raising tool that has split up the game

Obsidian isn't EA last time I checked......Never have I played their main game, and felt it was unfinished before....

 

And even in PoE 1. WM DLC's were completely separate from the main game.

Hmm. All of obsidians games have felt unfinished to me, a terribly short 3rd act wrapped around a terrible, dull bullet-spongey boss fight.

With most of the interesting plot threads abandoned elsewhere, to boot.

 

But the meat (particularly side quests and exploration) are usually worth sticking around for.

 

But that has little to do with 3 dlc. If they're anything like white march, they'll be significantly better than the main game. As long as they aren't like dead money: a railroad through bad combat to a pointless conclusion and a bar on just leaving and skipping all the garbage.

[Jayngo]

Throne of Bhaal was a revenue raising tool. Fight me.

Lol. Great post. This is the one form of "extra content" I always go back to since the inception of the DLC model.

 

ToB was a true Expansion. It was made because the fans wanted more. And it wasn't some crap like extra skins, or more weapons, or a 2 hour "story" mission. It was an honest to god expansion; something like 40 hours long.

 

Unfortunately, many publishers have used the DLC model to milk money out of gamers and include crap like extra skins and weapons (which used to always be unlockable within the game); or worse, actually have the content already created and "locked" on the disc in some instances.

 

When it comes to a company like Obsidian, I trust them. They are old school. And while they have "jumped on the DLC bandwagon" so to speak, I'm not worried to throw more money at them because:

 

1) Their history of expansion/DLC content is above average to great.

2) They are a small developer who have "stuck to their guns" and not got sucked into a wretched contract with a AAA publisher.

3) CRPG's history of "extra content" usually means MANY more hours of enjoyment.

 

 

Anyway, there are my two cents.

 

EDIT: Reason 4) CRPG's are inherently long (50-100 hours), so I always feel like I've not been cheated by "cut content." I do not believe Obsidian cut content in the case of Deadfire.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Jayngo

[Voss]

ToB was also rather terrible, both in terms of writing and having to cope with high level D&D (and failing).

 

So as expansions go, it's a pretty poor example.

 

 

On the other hand, obsidian's recent expansions (for Tyranny) have been absolute garbage tier, short missions with little content at all. Or even portrait packs.

 

 

So these are probably going to be a crap shoot in terms of quality. Hpepfully at least two will be White March rather than Bastard's Wound (or tales from the tiers...)

[SonicMage117]

Yeah, I have no problem with a game having "meaningless" dlc like outfits, weapons, etc. Many of the community do not realize that meaningless doesn't necessarily mean they can't be good.

 

In fact, if a story is long enough, I'd much rather have purely aesthetic dlc options/packages than more story dlc. I'm one of those people

 

 

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

[JerekKruger]

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

 

Is there a good reason to imagine these DLCs were cut content? If so, what is it? If not, why suggest it?

[malchiorita]

I strongly prefer true expansion over small dlcs but i'm not against them either...

 

My only big concern is that most of the time they "break" the pace of the game if you know what i mean... Cause often you get dlc content you can play before the main game ending, so 1 it somewhat break the linearity/immersion of the game and 2 it remove the challange of the main game content when you resume it cause you got "imba" items from dlc content...

 

I hugely prefer dlcs you can only play after the main game ending

[SonicMage117]

 

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

 

 

Is there a good reason to imagine these DLCs were cut content? If so, what is it? If not, why suggest it?

I don't know, I'm not on the Obsidian development team so I cannot really say if there is or not (as I imagine is the case is for every other member as well), perhaps it would be best for someome to ask Obsidian employees on the next Q&A stream.

 

There is always the pretty weak outlook of "It wasn't cut content, it was content they wish they could have put in but didn't have the time to do so, so they made it into dlc later" that we see on forums usually try to justify cut-content with. That in itself proves the community is not so easy at accepting these things. Thing is that cut content is often looked at as a negative thing but there are so many reasons why cut content can be a positive thing too. It really depends on the situation, the game and the writing.

[Skazz]

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

 

I really dislike this widespread narrative that every single piece of extra content that comes out for any game nowadays is "cut content". At best, it's just harmless internet blather. At worst, it's taking a giant dump on the creative efforts of great many people just because someone in charge had, maybe, perhaps, the gall to draft and/or plan some concepts in advance. That's not cut content, that's just good development practice.

 

I can't recall who, but one of the posters in this thread (I think, I have a terrible memory, and these outraged topic titles tend to blur in my mind) correctly pointed out that developing video games is a process that involves multiple tempos. Writers typically conclude their work earlier than some other members of the development team. It's really not a stretch to imagine that they may be directed to brainstorming DLC ideas while the main product is still in the oven.

 

EDIT: I mean, how is, say, Carrie Patel going to contribute to fixing bugs? What is she supposed to be doing in that time? Streaming her playthroughts of Arcanu--no, wait, that's Chris Avellone.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Skazz

[JerekKruger]

I don't know, I'm not on the Obsidian development team so I cannot really say if there is or not (as I imagine is the case is for every other member as well), perhaps it would be best for someome to ask Obsidian employees on the next Q&A stream.

 

So you don't have a good reason to assume these DLCs were cut content?

 

Would you agree or disagree that different aspects of game development finish at different stages in the development cycle, freeing up some of the development team before the game is released?

[rjshae]

 

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

 

Is there a good reason to imagine these DLCs were cut content? If so, what is it? If not, why suggest it?

 

More likely they started off with a broad set of options for suggested content, figured out what they could prioritize and still meet the schedule, then preserved selected other potential content as options for future expansions. That's just business at work. What we're getting is very likely what they could accomplish given the resources and time constraints, so I'm not clear why there would be some sort of conspiracy at work. If the original game doesn't hold up well, there's no way the added content is going to help sell it. They know that. What we're getting with the DLC probably isn't even the full list of potential additions.

[SonicMage117]

 

I don't know, I'm not on the Obsidian development team so I cannot really say if there is or not (as I imagine is the case is for every other member as well), perhaps it would be best for someome to ask Obsidian employees on the next Q&A stream.

So you don't have a good reason to assume these DLCs were cut content?

 

Would you agree or disagree that different aspects of game development finish at different stages in the development cycle, freeing up some of the development team before the game is released?

When did I say they were?

 

I said there's NO way to prove if they are or aren't. There's no reason (right now) for anyone to assume the dlc's are comprised of cut content or not. In other words, both sides of the argument are faulty at best.

 

As for the argument of "purposely left out" content to be sold at a later date, there's no really way to prove or disprove that theory since we are behind closed doors.

I really dislike this widespread narrative that every single piece of extra content that comes out for any game nowadays is "cut content". At best, it's just harmless internet blather. At worst, it's taking a giant dump on the creative efforts of great many people just because someone in charge had, maybe, perhaps, the gall to draft and/or plan some concepts in advance. That's not cut content, that's just good development practice.

 

I can't recall who, but one of the posters in this thread (I think, I have a terrible memory, and these outraged topic titles tend to blur in my mind) correctly pointed out that developing video games is a process that involves multiple tempos. Writers typically conclude their work earlier than some other members of the development team. It's really not a stretch to imagine that they may be directed to brainstorming DLC ideas while the main product is still in the oven.

 

EDIT: I mean, how is, say, Carrie Patel going to contribute to fixing bugs? What is she supposed to be doing in that time? Streaming her playthroughts of Arcanu--no, wait, that's Chris Avellone.

Exactly. We don't really know what variables are going on within the company, what it changing. It's uncommon for developers to gain or lose people in the middle of a project or while in development (usually they wait) but it does happen and when it does, fresh minds bring about new ideas. Other variables consists of focus, but I'm not going to say that one applies here because Deadfire's development process hasn't been focused or is constantly shifting focus in certain aspects.

 

On the other hand, I think it's strange for any community to deny that story dlc is cut-content, specifically when a dev says in an interview "We wanted to put this in the base game but didn't have a chance or ran out of time. So we wanted to refine it" That's a nice way of saying it was cut-content.

 

We'll just have to wait to see exactly what Obsidian says about the dlc specifics in order to form a wholesome conclusion.

Edited April 25, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Yenkaz]

KOTOR2 is a good example of a game that suffered badly from a game with too much cut content made by Obsidian. I do not, however, think POE was one - I mainly know of one cut NPC and changes to some characters.

 

It's kind of pointless to discuss now anyway. Without the released game on hand, how are we to know if there's a sense of cut content as with KOTOR2? I only think release day DLC with plots are malignant since, in this day of downloaded releases, they could have been included in the main release. Going by their description they are also of the WM 'and now for something completely different as the Watcher goes on an unrelated adventure!' variety

Edited April 25, 2018 by Yenkaz

[SonicMage117]

It's kind of pointless to discuss now anyway. Without the released game on hand, how are we to know if there's a sense of cut content as with KOTOR2? variety

Indeed.

[rjshae]

KOTOR2 is a good example of a game that suffered badly from a game with too much cut content made by Obsidian. I do not, however, think POE was one - I mainly know of one cut NPC and changes to some characters.

 

Remember why that happened though: LucasArts forced Obsidian to finish KOTOR2 within a very short time frame of 14-16 months. Presumably that isn't the case here.

[Skazz]

On the other hand, I think it's strange for any community to deny that story dlc is cut-content, specifically when a dev says in an interview "We wanted to put this in the base game but didn't have a chance or ran out of time. So we wanted to refine it" That's a nice way of saying it was cut-content.

 

Sure, content gets cut all the time. I'm reasonably confident that most of the major releases, especially complex RPGs, have loose strings dangling under the hood - but not necessarily due to malevolent business decisions. It's not always about pilfering the customer, much as the internet echo chambers would like you to believe otherwise.

 

Sometimes, stuff gets left out for a tangible reason: it's bad, or too time-consuming to implement, or meandering, or doesn't really fit the rest of the game. It's a question that some restoration mods (like the unofficial VTMB patches) struggle with, the question being: was this particular piece of content meant to be restored? Is there anything of substance here, really?

 

Not everything is Capcom-grade on-disc embezzlement scam. And refining an omitted concept from the original pitch for the purposes of DLC doesn't make it lazy pre-packaged "cut content".

 

EDIT: Some corrections here and there.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Skazz

[Tanjaxxx]

 

On the other hand, I think it's strange for any community to deny that story dlc is cut-content, specifically when a dev says in an interview "We wanted to put this in the base game but didn't have a chance or ran out of time. So we wanted to refine it" That's a nice way of saying it was cut-content.

 

Wait, this actually happened? xD 

 

Can someone link me? 

[SonicMage117]

 

 

On the other hand, I think it's strange for any community to deny that story dlc is cut-content, specifically when a dev says in an interview "We wanted to put this in the base game but didn't have a chance or ran out of time. So we wanted to refine it" That's a nice way of saying it was cut-content.

Wait, this actually happened? xD

 

Can someone link me?

That didn't have anything to do with Deadfire, that was a general example that's happened before within the industry (as in other games, unrelated to Deadfire/Obsidian.) Edited April 25, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Tanjaxxx]

 

 

On the other hand, I think it's strange for any community to deny that story dlc is cut-content, specifically when a dev says in an interview "We wanted to put this in the base game but didn't have a chance or ran out of time. So we wanted to refine it" That's a nice way of saying it was cut-content.

Wait, this actually happened? xD

 

Can someone link me?

That didn't have anything to do with Deadfire, that was a general example that's happened before within the industry.

 

 

Ah...alight. 

[JerekKruger]

When did I say they were?

 

When did you say what were? I asked if you agreed or disagreed with a statement.

 

But don't worry about it, I don't think this is going to go anywhere

[injurai]

****ing hell. DLC largely exists because you need to make content freezes in order to establish the project's scope. A ton of potential content is devised during pre-planning, content that looks to be increasingly un-viable is cut as the project advances.

 

Josh Recently had a great discussion about crunch and over-time and how you can actually loose productivity from Crunching. So to avoid those scenarios you need to establish a realistic scope of the project and design the project in a way where you can cut away content in order to salvage the major and most important parts of a project.

 

Once the artists and designers are done with the main-game and the game is moving into it's final development and testing stages. They can then jump back into the production pipeline on either new content (so they aren't idle) or pickup where they left off on cut content (once again, to not be idle.) That content will never be ready for the final game, but it was selectively cut because it was some form of side-content.

 

Obsidian also knew in advance that they we're making DLC for this game, so it's no surprise that they might over-plan side content, with the the anticipation that some of it would be cut and would be reworked into sizable meaty chunks of content that could come out later. At least this way whatever future content that they come out with, it's gone through a degree of work and refinement during the largest pre-planning stages. Just as all world builders should do, you design more than you write about.

 

Let's not imply cutting content is a way to create "to be sold later DLC content." Let's not wax-concerns over some none-existent dubious nature of Obsidian's development.

[Skazz]

****ing hell. DLC largely exists because you need to make content freezes in order to establish the project's scope. A ton of potential content is devised during pre-planning, content that looks to be increasingly un-viable is cut as the project advances.

 

Let's not imply cutting content is a way to create "to be sold later DLC content." Let's not wax-concerns over some none-existent dubious nature of Obsidian's development.

 

This, exactly this. injurai put it to words way better than I could.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Skazz

[JerekKruger]

This, exactly this. injurai put it to words way better than I could.

 

Seconded.

[dukeisaac]

****ing hell. DLC largely exists because you need to make content freezes in order to establish the project's scope. A ton of potential content is devised during pre-planning, content that looks to be increasingly un-viable is cut as the project advances.

 

Josh Recently had a great discussion about crunch and over-time and how you can actually loose productivity from Crunching. So to avoid those scenarios you need to establish a realistic scope of the project and design the project in a way where you can cut away content in order to salvage the major and most important parts of a project.

 

Once the artists and designers are done with the main-game and the game is moving into it's final development and testing stages. They can then jump back into the production pipeline on either new content (so they aren't idle) or pickup where they left off on cut content (once again, to not be idle.) That content will never be ready for the final game, but it was selectively cut because it was some form of side-content.

 

Obsidian also knew in advance that they we're making DLC for this game, so it's no surprise that they might over-plan side content, with the the anticipation that some of it would be cut and would be reworked into sizable meaty chunks of content that could come out later. At least this way whatever future content that they come out with, it's gone through a degree of work and refinement during the largest pre-planning stages. Just as all world builders should do, you design more than you write about.

 

Let's not imply cutting content is a way to create "to be sold later DLC content." Let's not wax-concerns over some none-existent dubious nature of Obsidian's development.

Word. That's simply how project management works. Deal with it