Trying to figure out how faith/religion works in Pillars. (POE1 spoilers)

[Bionick]

I know this forum says "NO SPOILERS," but I assume that is for POE2 spoilers. right? I included the tag just in case.

 

I am just trying to figure out how religion works in the Pillars universe. I know the backstory; the gods are artificial manifestations of philosophical ideals created to inspire and unite kith. They are real in the sense that they have power in the world and can bless their favor onto mortals whom they like.

 

So, this is a universe where one can know positively that the gods are real and that the afterlife absolutely exists; these are not matters of faith. Does this mean that to have "faith" in any particular god simply means one is hoping that a chosen deity is aware of and cares about an individual's existence enough to intervene on their behalf, either in their current life or in guiding their soul to a more promising reincarnation?  

 

Note: I am separating faith from the potential misapprehension that gods are creators and anything more than the constructs that they are. 

 

Is this correct and complete?

 

Thanks in advance. 

[geala]

Interesting question. Additional question: what/who created the gods?

 

Generally gods in games are quite often strange entities and the systems not well thought out. However, Latin "religio" in the original sense meant  "thinking of" or "to regard" or "to pay attention" in the way of following some given rules. In this sense it can also (or even better) work for the common superhero-game-gods which are not results of human imagination but "real".

[Wormerine]

Whatever the nature of Gods they exist and can influence faithful. I doubt they “guide” a cycle, they are rather a subject of it. What is their range of influence is something we might learn more in Deadfire. Gods are capable of interacting with the world (Thaos constantant reincarnation, Ondra’s attempt to wipe Engwith, stopped by Abydon) but they have a pact not to. But they don’t run the world.

 

I doubt Berath oversees death and rebirth in a way a Hades in Greek mythology would. He represent and strive towards an ideal or rebirth and cycles. I wonder what Eora’s people believe. I don’t remember Berath being represented as guy who makes those things happen in PoE. It doesn’t seem like Gods in Eora have a clear heaven/hell dogma enforcing certain values.

[Wormerine]

Interesting question. Additional question: what/who created the gods?

 

Well, that is explained in PoE1, no? I would recommend giving it a go if you didn’t already. In case you do want a massive spoiler:

 

 

A long long time ago a culture of Engwith flourished and they were worried by pogan nations, all worshiping their made up gods and doing horrible things in their name. They set out to find the one true god. They explored the nature of the soul (often by morally questionable experiments) and in the end discovered that there is no answer - there is no god, and if he ever was he isn’t to be found.

 

So, for the greater good, they decided to make their own Gods. They build big soul sucking adra machines and by sacrifice of many Engwith gave life to Gods, all designed after Engwith ideals. After that one of the surviving Engwith, Thaos, gathered followers and started spreading the true faith.

 

At some point Thaos struck a deal with one of the Gods, Woedica, who granted him an ability to constantly rebirth without loosing his memories. At the time when PoE1 action takes place, the Gods are widely accepted and Thaos acts as a leader of Leaden Key, a secret group which ensures that truth about the gods will never be known.

 

 

[Bionick]

Interesting question. Additional question: what/who created the gods?

 

The ending of POE1 quite thoroughly explicates that. 

 

Whatever the nature of Gods they exist and can influence faithful. I doubt they “guide” a cycle, they are rather a subject of it. What is their range of influence is something we might learn more in Deadfire. Gods are capable of interacting with the world (Thaos constantant reincarnation, Ondra’s attempt to wipe Engwith, stopped by Abydon) but they have a pact not to. But they don’t run the world.

 

I doubt Berath oversees death and rebirth in a way a Hades in Greek mythology would. He represent and strive towards an ideal or rebirth and cycles. I wonder what Eora’s people believe. I don’t remember Berath being represented as guy who makes those things happen in PoE. It doesn’t seem like Gods in Eora have a clear heaven/hell dogma enforcing certain values.

 

That is all pretty neat, but I am not actually asking about the gods themselves in POE. My question is what does it mean to have faith in the gods. 

I am sure that I would have a better idea about this if I had ever recruited Eder, but I never did. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Bionick

[Selky]

Much like in the DnD universe, the concept of faith is more about your devotion to a god or the gods as a whole. If you're considered "faithless" then it means you refuse to worship any god.

 

I think you're right when it comes to using the word in a "I have faith in Berath" type of way. It just means that you believe he'll guide your soul to the next life smoothly or reward your worship in him. You'd use it the same way you might use it with a person e.g. you have faith that your husband won't cheat on you.

[Madscientist]

When we look at the people´s faith we should consider one thing: Most people do not know the truth about the gods.

The leaden key did a good job to hide the origins of the gods and spread the faith into them.

So basically most people believe what the leaden key wants them to believe, even though most people do not know that the leaden key exists.

Also most members of the leaden key do not know what they are doing and why.

 

The game could also be calles "Pillars of Ignorance".

Most people do whatever they do because of "tradition" and they do not know where this tradition comes from and what it is good for.

Those who question those traditions are called heretics and they get lots of problems which may include getting killed.

The people who invented those traditions do it to keep people dumb and increase their own power.

The leaden key fights everyone who wants to investigate gods, especially animancers.

The hand occult changes historical records and there may be other organisations who do similar things.

[Bionick]

Much like in the DnD universe, the concept of faith is more about your devotion to a god or the gods as a whole. If you're considered "faithless" then it means you refuse to worship any god.

 

I think you're right when it comes to using the word in a "I have faith in Berath" type of way. It just means that you believe he'll guide your soul to the next life smoothly or reward your worship in him. You'd use it the same way you might use it with a person e.g. you have faith that your husband won't cheat on you.

 

It seems very transactional. Though I suppose faith could be either an explicit or implicit transaction (good behavior for reward) in the minds of many people today, and there definitely was an overt transaction in the "religious" (though that word is somewhat anachronistic) practices of pagan societies (sacrifice and tribute for reward). 

 

It is interesting to consider how faith operates when the universe is set up as such that you know incontrovertibly that there are real gods and an afterlife. 

 

I always play my characters as atheists (as they they are usually some form of Nietzschean will to power). In the first game I had a priest in my main party, and reconciled that as my character doing thus purely for the utility of it. Now that I am thinking about it more, I am not sure if that would fit his character. I think that if he knew that there were gods that would make him even more of an atheist (insofar as he would resent and defy them, since it would be irrational to not believe in their existence in such a setting). But priests are so much more useful than druids. 

 

Role-playing dilemmas. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by Bionick

[Wormerine]

That is all pretty neat, but I am not actually asking about the gods themselves in POE. My question is what does it mean to have faith in the gods. 

I am sure that I would have a better idea about this if I had ever recruited Eder, but I never did.

 

Well, figuring out what people think gods can do for them is kinda central to figuring it out, no? People in Eora know that these Gods exist and rightfully so, because they do. What they do with that knowledge seems to vary. Many NPCs in the world seem to do what they do (research, farming, craft) and get drawn to Gods whose ideals are closest to their own. Some people use faith as an excuse to do what they do, some rely on faith to make sense of the world around them.

[fortuntek]

There is no true answer to this; it is, presumably by intention, left up to the player to interpret. Therefore, we can debate real world interpretations of faith, or speculate as to what it means to characters in the PoE universe, but there's no definitive answer.

 

Tldr; Wael shenanigans

[Trogdor]

It is a terrible prospect really, definitive proof that the gods exist. I don't think fantasy settings touch upon this nearly enough. In our world, religions invented various 'outs', you can have your sins forgiven and whatnot. I imagine the Pillars universe would be similar, and you wouldn't be forever destined for some hell like domain if you took a wrong turn. You'd end up with some sad world filled with zealots and anarchists that way. Those clinging to the "true path" by any means, and those that have had a misstep realize they have nothing more to lose, so why not go all out and making the most out of life before you suffer for eternity..

 

Of course, with souls being reborn and the Leaden Key doing their best to hide the truth I'd imagine the Pillars universe would have all sorts of philosophical sects as well. What determines who you are reborn as? Some sort of Karma system? Random chance? Is there an end to the cycle?

[JerekKruger]

I always play my characters as atheists (as they they are usually some form of Nietzschean will to power). In the first game I had a priest in my main party, and reconciled that as my character doing thus purely for the utility of it. Now that I am thinking about it more, I am not sure if that would fit his character. I think that if he knew that there were gods that would make him even more of an atheist (insofar as he would resent and defy them, since it would be irrational to not believe in their existence in such a setting).

 

How about this: your character has learnt the truth behind the creation of, what the kith call, gods. Not believing in them would indeed be irrational, however are they really gods? What really sets them apart from simply being just another (admittedly extremely powerful) creature like the dragons and arch mages that already inhabit Eora. In particular there's really no reason your character needs to worship them, or even hold them in high regard. However just like any other powerful entity your character might want to temporarily ally himself with them, make use of their power while it serves his purposes.

[Alljix]

 

I always play my characters as atheists (as they they are usually some form of Nietzschean will to power). In the first game I had a priest in my main party, and reconciled that as my character doing thus purely for the utility of it. Now that I am thinking about it more, I am not sure if that would fit his character. I think that if he knew that there were gods that would make him even more of an atheist (insofar as he would resent and defy them, since it would be irrational to not believe in their existence in such a setting).

 

How about this: your character has learnt the truth behind the creation of, what the kith call, gods. Not believing in them would indeed be irrational, however are they really gods? What really sets them apart from simply being just another (admittedly extremely powerful) creature like the dragons and arch mages that already inhabit Eora. In particular there's really no reason your character needs to worship them, or even hold them in high regard. However just like any other powerful entity your character might want to temporarily ally himself with them, make use of their power while it serves his purposes.

 

Well it depends on how you define "god," does it has\ve to fit the Abrahamic concept of God or is it just any being who's powers is far beyond the general human race? Or does it have to be a "creator god?" If so than many gods in myths would not qualify either. Personally, I would just define them as a powerful being that a large number of people worship and revere, anything else is WAY too subjective a definition.

 

Interestingly, since there is actual proof that the gods exist in this game's world, it is possible to have a committed follower of a god who does not have any religious faith and is a skeptical empiricist. By this I mean that he knows the god exist and agrees with the general philosophy and goals of the god and the god's followers but will still doubt any claims or actions by that group/god if he finds them faulty or unsubstantiated. He does not get his morals and convictions primarily from the religion but he follows the religion because their philosophy aligns with his.

 

I find it kinda funny that despite being the leader of the "rationalist movement," Iovara came off as being too religious thinking. She is obsessed with the nature and origins of the gods, and while such things are important, she seems TOO obsessed with it, and seem to have far less concerns about the actual consequences of following these gods or believing in their lies or believing in things with no rational basis. Seems like she was so religious that she felted absolutely devastated to learn that all those beliefs were just concocted lies and backlashed more out of a personal sense of betrayal than of advocacy of rationalism. Though there are certainly real life atheists who didn't come to their atheism through what they believe to be rational, skeptical, and objective inquiry, but more because they felt their religion failed them.

[JerekKruger]

I agree that it depends largely on your definition of god. I suppose my point was that if you want to play a rational atheist in a setting where the 'gods' demonstrably exist you can (at least in Eora's case).

 

It's all a bit semantic I guess. In a sense so I'd real world atheism in the sense that we have a specific term for it. Dragon's exist in Eora and not on earth yet we don't have a special term for not believing in dragons. That's because, I think, of the priveleged place gods have in our societies. Since the gods have a similar place in Eoran societies, and demonstrably exist, I'd say the way to rationally be atheist is to deny their godhood. Treat them like any other powerful entity.

 

Not sure if that makes sense. I'm typing this on my phone so can't edit it as well as in my PC.

[Messier-31]

So, this is a universe where one can know positively that the gods are real and that the afterlife absolutely exists; these are not matters of faith. Does this mean that to have "faith" in any particular god simply means one is hoping that a chosen deity is aware of and cares about an individual's existence enough to intervene on their behalf, either in their current life or in guiding their soul to a more promising reincarnation?  

 

I say it means that they have faith in god's agenda. That their god knows what it's doing, what needs to be done on deity level.

 

It's vague, I know.

[aksrasjel]

About that god's agenta thing...

Apologies in advance if my rant seems out of topic or nonsensical, but I've always found this concept interesting.

I always assumed that religion plays at least some part in the culture of a given nation/society. As OP mentioned, gods in Eora are universal philosophical ideas made "flesh" meant to unify the kith races. But those are philosophical ideas universal by *Engwithan* standards and may not (and will not) be compatible in a different culture. I don't expect Dyrwood and White that Wends for example, to have much cultural overlap. But - as I assume - Engwithans forcefully inflicted their cultural/moral/philosophical system upon the entire world - Holy Crusades to nth degree, supported by literal divine fire. So, does this mean, that, thousands of years later we ended up in this very homogenized world, where every race, nation and society on Eora has a very similar and narrow belief and cultural system - you know, beacuse other less compatible cultures were most likely eradicated by angry gods? You may develop your "culture", as long as in isn't too different on a conceptual level from the established norm - we have godlike beings on our side and you don't. Isn't that tad villanous no matter how you're trying to spin it? So I wonder if the "big reveal" with Iovara at the end of PoE 1 was not literally meant to be "gods are man-made, therefore there can be no absolutes", but "the entire society, entire philosophy and belief system I was raised in was artificial and forced upon my ancestors against their will for "their own good""? Just a food for thought, I guess.

 

...I also haven't replayed Pillars 1 in a while and a lot of details may elude me - so if I missed the mark, sorry.

Edited April 17, 2018 by aksrasjel

[Fiaryn]

Given the time period of PoE1, the Gods and the truth behind them seems to be an elaborate metaphor for the Enlightenment and the social forces acting against it. Which is to say, by creating the Gods the Engwithans created an extremely elaborate form of cultural imperialism. The propagation of Engwithan values on the whole world by creating divine authority figures to assert those values as correct. Skaen and Woedica are the best example of this, Skaen seems to have been created for the express purpose of delegitimizing rebellion against despotic monarchy/aristocracy and to serve as a sort of pressure release valve. The aristocrat does not need to say "Hail Woedica" in every breath to demonstrate that aristocracy/despotic monarchy derives legitimacy from Woedica, it is simply an understood fact of life. By virtue of Woedica's very existence, the notion of a world without despotic monarchy/hierarchical aristocracy is one the majority of the world cannot conceive of. Consider Nietzsche's meditations on the end of God as a foundation for moral philosophy, and how that terrified him/how it seemed an impossible feat to articulate a system of ethics without God, and you start to grasp the ramifications of the final revelation of Pillars of Eternity.

 

The greater significance of the revelation of the Gods as artificial is not really about them, but rather that the ideas and social concepts they embody are not eternal and necessary if the Gods are man made.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Fiaryn