Awful tree talents.

[Amentep]

I was hoping this thread was about a set of talents called "awful tree" for Druids and that we'd be discussing it.  Possibilities fired in the imagination, alas.

 

I haven't played the beta, but as long as you have some option in the picking of talents, I don't really see an issue in having less talents.  The problem would be if you had so few talents that you had no choice (at which point, what's the point of having a choice, just design the class to pick-up the talent at a particular level-up).

[Boeroer]

That was the impression in former betas: no real choice (obviously mostly for single class characters).

[Sedrefilos]

I was hoping this thread was about a set of talents called "awful tree" for Druids and that we'd be discussing it.  Possibilities fired in the imagination, alas.

 

I haven't played the beta, but as long as you have some option in the picking of talents, I don't really see an issue in having less talents.  The problem would be if you had so few talents that you had no choice (at which point, what's the point of having a choice, just design the class to pick-up the talent at a particular level-up).

It's about quality not quantity. What I get is that even though there enough choices right now, many seem boring or uninteresting or not worthwile. It's a valid point, though I have to say, as a non-hardocore player (meaning I don't do multiple playthroughs) I found many talents of Pillars 1 not that useful too and others almost mandatory. But I can imagine experimenting players could use many of those felt useless to me.  

Edited April 4, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[Amentep]

I suppose I should amend my statement as I was thinking of a small talent pool of equally useful talents.  If it were a small pool of one really, extremely useful talent and a bunch of useless ones then you really don't have a talent pool, but a talent and some detritus, which is not terribly different from having a large pool with only a handful of useful choices.

[SonicMage117]

That seems to be an ongoing struggle in the genre, being confident in the balance of talents/skills trees. It's a shame but it happens. If all talents could be measurably equal, it would be a miracle but it's a shame that the players who want to play with certain talents have a lesser experience because they go a different route....

 

Such is the fault of builds in rpg's in general. Wanna play the smart way? We'll punish you for it. Wanna play your way in an rpg game? We'll punish you for that as well

Edited April 4, 2018 by SonicMage117

[Gromnir]

For example the warriors second update of focus ability - the choosing between 50% gazes to hits and 50% to crits and +5 intelligence? Seriously?

 

is not as great an example as one might believe it to be.  is numerous tank builds which we do not much care 'bout doing weapon damage and am preferring tactical barrage to disciplined strikes.  yes, for many fighter builds intellect is o' negligible importance, but particular for multiclass tanks, or any multiclass which relies on powhaz with a duration, tactical will be the win choice over disciplined.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sedrefilos]

I usually don't get all mad about it unless a game really really sucks. If some class doesn't feel interesting (like playing a fighter in any DnD crpg) I just pick something else (sorcrers and druids are usually fun). In a story driven game class design is only a fraction of the enjoyment imo. If the game is good in general I can easily overlook a not so well design.

 

Now if someone is so glued to a particular class/playstyle in every rpg that refuses to play anything else, and it just so happens it's the one (among numerous others, though) that doesn't feel all that well developed in Deadfire, well, it's half their fault imo

Edited April 4, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[Murp]

I give this thread a 6/10 on the salt chart. I've seen worse.

[Guest]

Just a friendly reminder that we’ve seen about 40% of the game. I’m sure the +50,000 damage passive that everyone agrees is totally balanced and not game breaking at all will be available at level 10.

 

In the mean time, the low level passives are...available at lower levels.

[hilfazer]

If you are talking about multiclass why cant you add somehing like gamechanging mechanics to talents, like furious warrior (just an example) that gives you +to damage for a short time but a loss of accracy, or spellsword when your damage becomes modified by intelligence vs might? Is it so hard?

Yes, that is hard to balance, but this is interesting!

 

In PoE2 we're not getting interesting and gamechanging, we're getting balanced and boring.

 

Have a look at Carnage. In PoE1 it was interesting, in PoE2 it is boring.

[rjshae]

Is the complaint that the majority of the talents are uninteresting, or not powerful enough? From my perspective a talent tree is useful if it allows you to tailor your character to be noticeably different from another build. They don't really need to be super novel or very powerful to be useful in game play terms.

[Guest]

Is the complaint that the majority of the talents are uninteresting, or not powerful enough? From my perspective a talent tree is useful if it allows you to tailor your character to be noticeably different from another build. They don't really need to be super novel or very powerful to be useful in game play terms.

Great post

[Sedrefilos]

40% of the game mechanics-wise maybe, 'cause I doubt we've seen even 10% of the overall product.

[Guest]

40% of the game mechanics-wise maybe, 'cause I doubt we've seen even 10% of the overall product.

Yep. I assumed that would be obvious but it’s good to clarify.

[ShadySands]

Playing casters exclusively, I don't like that I have to choose between a talent or a spell. I wish they were separate.

 

Guess it doesn't really matter as I can just cheat 

[Guest]

My Pillars experience was this:

 

1) take or get access to lots of spells

2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them

3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

 

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

Edited April 4, 2018 by Achilles

[Gromnir]

Playing casters exclusively, I don't like that I have to choose between a talent or a spell. I wish they were separate.

 

Guess it doesn't really matter as I can just cheat 

is worth noting how powerful is the functional free talents provided by a wizard's grimoire.  am suspecting by mid-late game you will have more spells than you actual typical use, but regardless, thanks to grimoires you need not actual acquire all o' your spells during the level-up process.

 

as an aside, am suspecting grimoire location and content meta-knowledge will quickly be one o' the basic and almost unavoidable "exploits" in the game.   

 

HA! Good Fun!

[SonicMage117]

We as the players should never settle for builds we don't want to play or excuse games for not being able to be who we want to be. Sacrifice of player freedom for sake of lack of balance in talent/skills tree is no difference.

 

It is a firm belief that any rpg player should be able to play how they want, where they want, when they want. Then again, Pillars games are more restricted and more casual then other rpg's which allow more freedoms to the given player. Divinity: OS2 is a perfect example which allows for players to play how they want, and it's comparable to Pillars games because the same guidelines were applied. It's just a matter of some games doing it better than others is all.

[MortyTheGobbo]

My Pillars experience was this:

 

1) take or get access to lots of spells

2) only ever use 4 or 5 of them

3) never use potions or scrolls because they do the exact same thing as spells

 

I don’t think the limited selection is going to sting nearly as much as people think it’s going to. I get that our psychology is such that we really don’t like it when we think things are being taken away, but I actually think this works better

 

Having just finished a full PoE run as a druid, I have to agree. I had a few spells that I liked to use because they were strong or just suited my preferred tactics. Everything else was used on a rainy day, or in specific circumstances.

 

I do worry about no-brainer choices in Deadfire, mind you.

Edited April 4, 2018 by MortyTheGobbo

[topologista]

lol pillats

[Darkmind]

Yo. Im not really interested in some forum holy-wars or kinda of that things. I just want one of my favorite games to shine properly. 
I didnt mention at the first message about casters talents. That is even more funny. For example in older DnD games you could always affect of modify your spells, take some other offensive or def talents and choose your spells. In new PoE2 casters dont even have talents. Their perks is 70% are spells from previous game and some bonuses like +10mental#reflex def. That is even more funny than melee and ranged specs. 
You had a great spell ideas in Tyranny with all that runes and spell modifications. Why PoE2 is so badly desined? I dont get it. 

[Darkmind]

It is not even about balance guys. For example clerics runes were incredibliy broken even in the final versions of PoE. Or some cypher spells like reaping knives of mental beams, like battle-wizzards. But you had your own choice what to use and what to not use. Im mostly scared of linearity instead of bad balance.

[SonicMage117]

True both are at risk right now, especially when comparing to the first game. If we're being real, this wasn't expected by the player-base/backers but should have been. In any game, the more ambitious it is, the more trouble there is bound to be (this isn't an excuse). I'm really hoping everything doesn't go south quickly after launch.... Everyone has been disagreeing on how the game should be balanced so I really hope that Obsidian plays it smart and instead of listening to the fans, just go with their heart and make the game a better game. That is the only thing that needs to happen here.

[Wormerine]

It is a firm belief that any rpg player should be able to play how they want, where they want, when they want. Then again, Pillars games are more restricted and more casual then other rpg's which allow more freedoms to the given player. Divinity: OS2 is a perfect example which allows for players to play how they want, and it's comparable to Pillars games because the same guidelines were applied. It's just a matter of some games doing it better than others is all.

Gameplaywise though, especially combat - I felt Divinity to be quite restrictive. It has a “feeling” of choice, because it’s a classless system. Instead of deciding if you are a ranger, or wizard, or priest type character you decide more as you go on. However, within one archetype I found the choices to be quite limited.

 

Ambition of PoE1 was creating a class system and still provide a bit of flexibility of a classless system. That came with complaint of classes to being distinct enough. Deadfire made each class more restrictive and trusted in multiclassing to allow for hybrid builds. Complaints came that it is not possible to build hybrids when playing singleclass characters (mostly desiring weapon buffs of fighters). They made a lot of martial passives available to everyone and complaints are that they are not unique, or always desirable, or are underpowered, as if those passives are required to be picked when levelling up.

 

Madhouse.

[SonicMage117]

True.

 

It really ruined some things, now Obsidian is scattered so close at launch. For me, it's kinda painful to see, as a backer. I'm praying for a miracle that all will turn out well but given Obsidian's past hiccups upon release, this just might be their messiest one yet (sadly).

 

I just wanted the best for the game and for Obsidian make it the best that it can be. When I backed the game, I saw a focused vision, a steady goal and a sure plan to get ther. Josh and the team seemd so confident, but I never imagined the road to be so... rocky? Perhaps this is the common shortcomings of developing such games of magnitude in the industry, I don't know but launch date strikes the match a little closer and closer every day. While we twiddle our thumbs and wait for a what could be rushed product... or maybe it will actually be okay.

 

Things that make you go... "Hmmmm"