Politics Thread: Edge of Seventeen

[Guard Dog]

@Gromnir: Don't worry, your knowledge of history is above reproach in my book. And I did not shrug off his role in the Klan. I mentioned it as fact and really did not dig into it. I did however shrug off the Ft. Pillow massacre as a qualification. If you want to include that then there were a lot of evil bastards running around in blue & gray uniforms. If you'd agree to that I'd go along with you there. All the more reason to not put up statues IMO. If were going to honor any of them then honor the ones who gained some credit from the whole bloody mess. The six names I mentioned before were good examples. There are others I'm sure but those are the ones that come to mind.

 

As far as statues go, get rid of all of them. But for God's sake start with this one:

 

 

That is just... just...

 

 

Leave this one though:

 

[smjjames]

I think I've heard of that woman statue, I forget who it was of, but it was so terribly done that the residents nearby called it an eyesore and wanted it gone.

[Guard Dog]

I think I've heard of that woman statue, I forget who it was of, but it was so terribly done that the residents nearby called it an eyesore and wanted it gone.

It's supposed to be Lucille Ball. It doesn't look anything like her. It looks like one of those horror movie statues that's in a slightly different position every morning.

 

The story behind the dog statue is quite cool though: https://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/3625

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Then one day you are out of work through no fault of your own, tough luck!

Logical fallacy, if you are good worker you would not loose a job, and if it was really, really not your fault you would get a new one the second you became available on the market. 

 

 

 

Apparently, in Sharpie's world, no skillset ever becomes obsolete.

 

Man, I'd love to live there.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Then one day you are out of work through no fault of your own, tough luck!

Logical fallacy, if you are good worker you would not loose a job, and if it was really, really not your fault you would get a new one the second you became available on the market. 

 

 

 

Apparently, in Sharpie's world, no skillset ever becomes obsolete.

 

Man, I'd love to live there.

 

 

to be fare, hand never becomes obsolete...

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Then one day you are out of work through no fault of your own, tough luck!

Logical fallacy, if you are good worker you would not loose a job, and if it was really, really not your fault you would get a new one the second you became available on the market.

 

 

 

Apparently, in Sharpie's world, no skillset ever becomes obsolete.

 

Man, I'd love to live there.

 

I'd prefer to live in a world where machines doing ****ty jobs wouldn't mean plunging half the world into poverty.

[213374U]

And what do you contribute? If I remember correctly you are on welfare and uneducated. I may confuse you with someone else though.

The thought of you, of all people, calling someone else, anyone, uneducated, is Monty Python-quality absurd comedy. Keep at it though... it's one of the few things I don't see a sweatshop in Shenzhen outcompeting you at anytime soon. I also chuckled at your confusing "logical fallacy" with "economic facts I am ignorant of". If anyone, it's you who's committing a logical fallacy.

 

Been working since before I finished high school, by the way. Current stretch (after being laid off due to corporate "restructuring") is three years where I'm now, no vacations (got that sweet sweet $$$ instead), turned down promotions because **** that ****, while moonlighting as a personal trainer. But that's cool because it's my choice. A choice that sadly not everyone can make.

[Blarghagh]

Cool it with the personal attacks, guys.

[Gfted1]

...while moonlighting as a personal trainer.

That's pretty cool. Does that gig bring in some decent monies?

[213374U]

 

...while moonlighting as a personal trainer.

That's pretty cool. Does that gig bring in some decent monies?

...enough to pay for my vices, at least. I'm sitting at 35 merkels per session which is towards the cheap end. Honestly I'd do it for free, but you know...

 

 

Most importantly, people generally will take training much more seriously (and therefore see results) if they are paying for it than if it's free. Whether it's a cause-effect thing or a result of people only being willing to pay if they are already serious, I don't know, but that's how it is.

[Malcador]

Eh, I will be nice

Edited April 20, 2018 by Malcador

[213374U]

Yeah, and the contention that tech unemployment doesn't really exist as evidenced by some engineer learning AutoCAD is pretty lulzy when we're talking about things like lawyers possibly becoming obsolete as a profession thanks to machine learning.

 

Haha, guess they should have studied compsci instead. Who's the math nerd now huh?

 

Wait. What do you mean by machines that can program machines?!

Edited April 20, 2018 by 213374U

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yeah, and the contention that tech unemployment doesn't really exist as evidenced by some engineer learning AutoCAD is pretty lulzy when we're talking about things like lawyers possibly becoming obsolete as a profession thanks to machine learning.

 

Haha, guess they should have studied compsci instead. Who's the math nerd now huh?

 

Wait. What do you mean by machines that can program machines?!

They need to pull themselves by their bootstraps and become machines.

[Deadly_Nightshade]

Cool it with the personal attacks, guys.

 

 

 

 

I thought that was the sole reason that this thread existed? Because who needs well thought out arguments when you can jump to the ad hominem? 

 

/s - in case that wasn't obvious.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Deadly_Nightshade

[Raithe]

[Malcador]

 

Cool it with the personal attacks, guys.

 

 

 

 

I thought that was the sole reason that this thread existed? Because who needs well thought out arguments when you can jump to the ad hominem? 

 

/s - in case that wasn't obvious.

 

I've yet to be convinced arguments are really worth it as people just talk past each other in these threads. It's the COD of the forums, each one pretty much same as the last one

[Guard Dog]

That's not true. I've had some of my opinions changed from coming here. I think a few others too. Besides, that isn't really the point. The discussion is it's own reward IMO.

[Raithe]

And since most of it tends to be American politcs under discussion, I like to lurk and throw popcorn over those colonial traitors.

 

Well, that and throw in political jokes.

 

On a random sideline, for the mix of history and politics, I saw an interesting discussion which posited that no revolution in history has ever succeeded on its own. The only revolutions that have worked, have been those that are supported by some outside power. Then as part of that discussion, the point was raised that on certain grounds, the American War of Independence was not an actual revolution per se, but actually a civil war - due to the fact that the organisers and leaders of the American side of things were in the majority cases those people who were in the positions of power in the Americas, and not the underclass that revolutions are made up of.

[majestic]

For example when I was getting my Masters in engineering the mandatory standard was drawing projects on papers with pencil followed by inking. Computer programs were supporting the process. Then making 2D projects on computer, then 3D and with ever expanding programs/systems and standards to learn and master.

According to your logic I should just stop learning and go on welfare when hand drawn was replaced by digitalization. I should cry and claim that my skillset is no longer needed and that system is cruel and unfair and society needs to care for poor me.

 

You do know that what you're describing isn't your skillset becoming obsolete but rather the tools with which to apply it changing, right? That's not exactly the same as being replaced by a machine or being outperformed by a sweatshop at the ass end of the world.

 

 

Yeah, and the contention that tech unemployment doesn't really exist as evidenced by some engineer learning AutoCAD is pretty lulzy when we're talking about things like lawyers possibly becoming obsolete as a profession thanks to machine learning.

 

Haha, guess they should have studied compsci instead. Who's the math nerd now huh?

 

Wait. What do you mean by machines that can program machines?!

They need to pull themselves by their bootstraps and become machines.

 

You just need to realize that apparently Poland is like 15 years behind the "West", when he got his master's degree they were still hand-drawing and inking design projects. Unless he graduated from university like Sheldon Cooper that would put the timeframe somewhere from 2008 to 2010. The last time I've seen someone hand-drawing anything was in '97 during a summer job at our municipal office - and those were drafts from an architect.

Edited April 20, 2018 by majestic

[Elerond]

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-to-end-basic-income-experiment-2018-4?r=UK&IR=T

 

Finland is killing its experiment with basic income

 

I wonder why it didn't work. Just because that failed doesn't mean that the concept is a fail, we'd need to know why they pulled out of it before making any judgement. As with anything, there are ways to do it that work and ways to do it that simply don't, or it could be factors completely unrelated to the concept of basic income.

 

 

Because our government didn't give it a change in first place, as they didn't even really do a experiment as they only did small scale selection where they replaced some people's unemployed benefit with basic income and then they started immediately to write new unemployed benefit model which they activated in start of this year which failed completely and now they try to fix it with idiotic quick fixes that don't really do anything productive or beneficiary to anybody, but at least we get thousands short courses for unemployed people so that government can pretend that they have activated unemployed seek jobs that doesn't exist.

[Vaeliorin]

You guys make me laugh. Acting like jobs disappear overnight replaced by big bad robots. "I swear I got to my work and there were those machines everywhere and one fired me".

You need to keep up with times and learn new things, develop new skills etc.

 

For example when I was getting my Masters in engineering the mandatory standard was drawing projects on papers with pencil followed by inking. Computer programs were supporting the process. Then making 2D projects on computer, then 3D and with ever expanding programs/systems and standards to learn and master.

According to your logic I should just stop learning and go on welfare when hand drawn was replaced by digitalization. I should cry and claim that my skillset is no longer needed and that system is cruel and unfair and society needs to care for poor me.

Get a grip and learn a useful skill or two.

So my father, 2 or 3 years from retirement, should have had to learn an entirely new skill set when his highly skilled position (what my father did was basically the manual version of Photoshop) was replaced by a computer program most high school dropouts could use?

 

No, he didn't end up on welfare or anything, but expecting people to just learn a new skill set instantly without any assistance when theirs is entirely obsoleted is ridiculous, particularly for younger people who aren't likely to have much in the way of savings they can fall back on to support themselves while learning a new craft.

[injurai]

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-to-end-basic-income-experiment-2018-4?r=UK&IR=T

 

Finland is killing its experiment with basic income

 

I wonder why it didn't work. Just because that failed doesn't mean that the concept is a fail, we'd need to know why they pulled out of it before making any judgement. As with anything, there are ways to do it that work and ways to do it that simply don't, or it could be factors completely unrelated to the concept of basic income.

 

 

Because our government didn't give it a change in first place, as they didn't even really do a experiment as they only did small scale selection where they replaced some people's unemployed benefit with basic income and then they started immediately to write new unemployed benefit model which they activated in start of this year which failed completely and now they try to fix it with idiotic quick fixes that don't really do anything productive or beneficiary to anybody, but at least we get thousands short courses for unemployed people so that government can pretend that they have activated unemployed seek jobs that doesn't exist.

 

 

How could Finland manage to "give it a chance" though, without it just being some temporary experiment? Unless it's some sort of nationalized fund, that money is just going to come from indebted future generations. Already most entitlements are stipulated on consistent growth.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/finland-to-end-basic-income-experiment-2018-4?r=UK&IR=T

 

Finland is killing its experiment with basic income

 

I wonder why it didn't work. Just because that failed doesn't mean that the concept is a fail, we'd need to know why they pulled out of it before making any judgement. As with anything, there are ways to do it that work and ways to do it that simply don't, or it could be factors completely unrelated to the concept of basic income.

 

 

Because our government didn't give it a change in first place, as they didn't even really do a experiment as they only did small scale selection where they replaced some people's unemployed benefit with basic income and then they started immediately to write new unemployed benefit model which they activated in start of this year which failed completely and now they try to fix it with idiotic quick fixes that don't really do anything productive or beneficiary to anybody, but at least we get thousands short courses for unemployed people so that government can pretend that they have activated unemployed seek jobs that doesn't exist.

 

 

How could Finland manage to "give it a chance" though, without it just being some temporary experiment? Unless it's some sort of nationalized fund, that money is just going to come from indebted future generations. Already most entitlements are stipulated on consistent growth.

 

 

It cost aren't as big as they seems from first look, because most of that money comes back to country's coffer via multilevel taxation, which is how we keep our social benefit systems running already. Basic income would have move lots of different benefits under one benefit, removed most of the welfare traps, which keeps people in benefit circle.

 

Biggest obstacles to taking it to use are that there are some optional benefits that are necessary to keep addition to it and that it needs massive starting capital which either needs increase in government debt or taking massive cut from our pension funds. Even though those can be paid back relatively soon after system starts its economic system it is still something that politician like to avoid doing.

 

But by giving chance  I mean testing would it increase economic circulation as low income workers would have more money to spend, which would mean that companies cash flow would increase and that increase for their goods and services could increase number of jobs they can offer, which would decrease our big unemployment population, which would help in economic growth. But our government was not interested any of such experiments so basic income talks will move to next government as current is failing in all their job creation attempts. 

[smjjames]

That sounds pretty self explainatory, if the government isn't interested in experiments such as basic income, then of course it won't go well if they don't take it seriously.

[injurai]

I'm a big proponent of increasing cash flows. I still think UBI unless mandated to maintain a proportional level of purchasing power would end up diluted by inflation and quantitative easing.