Companion/Sidekick Class Options Revealed

[Nanawatzin]

Well I guess we sound like people who just don't see this fact as fitting in the lore. 

 

Also... Pallgina's endings are crucial to her paladin order. Only that. She's still a paladin. When we speak about one out of three endings for Eder which may imply the fact that he would be a priest, this is not something that would work for all of the players. Why? Even if people have different endings for Pallegina, she still will be a paladin with two possibilities for multiclassing. In Eder's case, we have Edere as a fighter, rogue or fighter/rogue. In that case, Obsidian would have to create third path for him, only for people who chose this ending. And then what? He could be a fighter, priest or fighter/priest for some people? And what about people who did not chose this ending? There would be no lore wise infortmation for that. No suggestion that he grown much more in his faith and became a priest. The rogue - at least for me - is more fitting in the role of the leader of the Night Market. That's all.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Nanawatzin

[JerekKruger]

Night *Market*

 

The name precludes priests how exactly?

 

Yes, he is going to be in conflict with Xoti. Does it make more sense for that conflict to stem from a completely different take on religion or does a nerd-fight between two priest sound like more fertile ground?

 

 

Because two priests can't have completely different takes on their religion? Particularly not when they're from different parts of the world and one follows a different aspect of their god to the other (Gaun).

 

Look, as others have already pointed out, they wanted to do one thing but ended up doing another. Are you going to get over this and move on or do you think complaining here is actually going to accomplish something? The game ships in a few weeks. I don’t think you can look forward to a major shift on multiclass in that time. 

 

 

Over it? I merely gave my opinion that I want to multiclass my Eder as a Priest of Eothas and then I'm told that I'm wrong to want that so I explain why I disagree. The fact that he probably won't be able to in the base game doesn't bother me particularly since I'm confident I'll be able to mod it to allow him. Doesn't mean I have to think the choice Obsidian have made is a good one.

[JerekKruger]

Well I guess we sound like people who just don't see this fact as fitting in the lore. 

 

No, you sound like people who don't want other people to interpret the lore differently to yourselves.

[Nanawatzin]

 

Well I guess we sound like people who just don't see this fact as fitting in the lore. 

 

No, you sound like people who don't want other people to interpret the lore differently to yourselves.

 

 

And look who's saying that.

[Guest]

 

Night *Market*

The name precludes priests how exactly?

You keep calling it “Night Garden”

[JerekKruger]

 

 

Well I guess we sound like people who just don't see this fact as fitting in the lore. 

 

No, you sound like people who don't want other people to interpret the lore differently to yourselves.

 

 

And look who's saying that.

 

Erm.... what? I am more than happy for you to not multiclass Eder as a Priest. I'd just like the option. That's the great thing about options: you can choose not to pick them.

 

You keep calling it “Night Garden”

 

Hah! That's a children's TV show here in the UK. Blame my nephew.

[Gromnir]

am not seeing anything 'bout edér teylecg which would preclude him possible joining the clergy, though am honest not knowing what is the actual requirements for such admission.  priesthood admission o' formal religions typical also have rules and duties for those who would minister as other than a lay person.  am not knowing the lore o' such to comment.  if is no such lore, then you got a new problem eh?  edér "taking up the cloth" or whatever is the eothasian equivalent, would be significant and noteworthy.  add rogue or fighter or mixture o' both is hardly narrative essential material as difference 'tween two is simple chosen style o' combat skill, neither o' which is mutual exclusive.  however, add priest to edér and have writers not address the spiritual metamorphosis would be more than a little curious.  failure o' the writers to address such a change for edér 'tween  poe and deadfire would no doubt raise the dreaded immersion hobgoblin, albeit with some justification.  sure, writers could complete ignore the priest aspect and have edér address eothas issues same as his lay character, but failure to make note o' his change from lay status would be, at minimum, a curious and salient oversight for many players o' deadfire.

 

if deadfire writers don't feel comfortable in their ability to elegant avoid the sacrament o' holy orders, we got some sympathy for such concerns.  a simple one-off dialogue inclusion for edér which recognizes his status as a priest would suffice?  feels cheap and unworthy. no mention would be potential more jarring than would the one-off.  keeping in mind just how limited is the character development opportunities in a crpg such as poe or deadfire, take on holy order admission w/o addressing or changing edér would nevertheless linger much like chekhov's gun for many players.  so obsidian writers choose not to complicate?  fine.  am aware edér has orlan bigotry issues which the obsidian writers is gonna explore to some degree, and game development writing is not novel writing-- is zero sum.  can't pragmatic simple add more writing to answer more questions. got things you wanna achieve with eder and as such it makes sense to avoid any unnecessary distractions and clutter.  may simple not have time to do priest bit justice.

 

if edér became a priest, we would expect mention.  if any o' Gromnir's close friends became a priest, we would have questions for 'em.  avoidance o' such a topic would be a bit unnatural.  if the writers genuine don't feel comfortable writing while pretending to ignore the elephant in the room, such is a good enough reason for 'em to not try.  am hoping for deeper and more complex characters than poe.  if the obsidian writers see priestliness as an obstacle to a well-written character, then am preferring they don't try and force such an alloy into existence. deadfire is not an exercise for undergrad creative writing aspirants.  give us best effort, or don't do.  

 

and keep in mind if you genuine want a fighter/priest or rogue/priest o' eothas, you can make a hireling who fits the bill.  everybody wins.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am gonna observe how if not edér, then another priest option woulda been nice.  dump pallegina and instead offer a unique paladin/priestess o' woedica?  now that sounds like win to us. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Gromnir

[Yosharian]

Well I guess we sound like people who just don't see this fact as fitting in the lore. 

 

Also... Pallgina's endings are crucial to her paladin order. Only that. She's still a paladin. When we speak about one out of three endings for Eder which may imply the fact that he would be a priest, this is not something that would work for all of the players. Why? Even if people have different endings for Pallegina, she still will be a paladin with two possibilities for multiclassing. In Eder's case, we have Edere as a fighter, rogue or fighter/rogue. In that case, Obsidian would have to create third path for him, only for people who chose this ending. And then what? He could be a fighter, priest or fighter/priest for some people? And what about people who did not chose this ending? There would be no lore wise infortmation for that. No suggestion that he grown much more in his faith and became a priest. The rogue - at least for me - is more fitting in the role of the leader of the Night Market. That's all.

 

Eder being a priest wouldn't mean that he couldn't do any of the things in his endings.

 

All it would mean is that his priestly aspects wouldn't be reflected in them.

 

I believe that isn't a big deal given the gameplay benefits that would come from allowing free multiclassing.

 

Even if it was, it could be an option, something that players could opt in to, knowing that the game lore might not fit exactly as it might otherwise do.

 

This is about you trying to force your preconceptions on how the game should function from a lore perspective, on other players who care less about that and more on exploring the deep gameplay possibilities that would come from fully utilizing the multiclassing system with companions.

 

My request for larger multiclassing options wouldn't impact on your game at all.

 

And 'lol just use mods' is a bull**** response.

 

So is 'lol just use a custom character'.  Using a custom character means we miss out on the benefits that a fully-integrated companion brings, which is a huge loss.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Yosharian

[Gromnir]

is nothing wrong with choosing to abandon internal coherence.  un chien andalou is kinda a  mind %$*&, but am s'posing there is a place for such. 

 

am actual not having a personal problem with players voluntarily choosing to abandon any semblance o' internal coherence for their game if they so choose.  sadly. 'cause this is a crpg, a considerable % o' players is gonna complain if the game doesn't react to their choices.  the main character is gonna be written so vague as to embrace any class combo, race or gender, which is why crpg protagonists is usual boring. the writers can't do such with the companions w/o making 'em similar dull. the npcs is where crpg stories with vague protagonists is actual developed, and try and make companions infinite malleable ciphers (not the poe class) would be a serious handicap to storytelling.  

 

give choice and people is gonna complain when game doesn't react reasonable, or at all.  Gromnir, for example, were kinda cheesed off when game only reacted to our priest o' wael at one point in the game, and only if we had two tiers o' honest disposition. companions is gonna be written far more specific than the player-- is essential.  pallegina keeps responding to disalogues as if she is the monotonous paladin she were in poe, but bob is playing his pallegina as a bleak walker/berserker, and is complaining to obsidian 'bout lack o' reactivity.

 

is pretty standard for players to have limited capacity to customize companions in story-driven crpgs.  likely gonna alienate fewer folks by simple adopting custom in the genre as 'posed to throwing open companion customization and then needing deal with crpg grognards who bemoan lack o' choice and consequences... and yeah, if you don't like the perfect viable companions as-is, you do have the option o' creating hirelings.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Yosharian]

is nothing wrong with choosing to abandon internal coherence.  un chien andalou is kinda a  mind %$*&, but am s'posing there is a place for such. 

 

am actual not having a personal problem with players voluntarily choosing to abandon any semblance o' internal coherence for their game if they so choose.  sadly. 'cause this is a crpg, a considerable % o' players is gonna complain if the game doesn't react to their choices.  the main character is gonna be written so vague as to embrace any class combo, race or gender, which is why crpg protagonists is usual boring. the writers can't do such with the companions w/o making 'em similar dull. the npcs is where crpg stories with vague protagonists is actual developed, and try and make companions infinite malleable ciphers (not the poe class) would be a serious handicap to storytelling.  

 

give choice and people is gonna complain when game doesn't react reasonable, or at all.  Gromnir, for example, were kinda cheesed off when game only reacted to our priest o' wael at one point in the game, and only if we had two tiers o' honest disposition. companions is gonna be written far more specific than the player-- is essential.  pallegina keeps responding to disalogues as if she is the monotonous paladin she were in poe, but bob is playing his pallegina as a bleak walker/berserker, and is complaining to obsidian 'bout lack o' reactivity.

 

is pretty standard for players to have limited capacity to customize companions in story-driven crpgs.  likely gonna alienate fewer folks by simple adopting custom in the genre as 'posed to throwing open companion customization and then needing deal with crpg grognards who bemoan lack o' choice and consequences... and yeah, if you don't like the perfect viable companions as-is, you do have the option o' creating hirelings.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

> the writers can't do such with the companions w/o making 'em similar dull. the npcs is where crpg stories with vague protagonists is actual developed, and try and make companions infinite malleable ciphers (not the poe class) would be a serious handicap to storytelling.  

 

I can't think of a single line of dialogue from Eder in POE1 that would prevent me from imagining him as any number of different classes.

 

So your assertion doesn't hold up.

 

Never mind the fact that we're not even asking for Eder to no longer be a fighter, but rather for him to be able to choose from the Fighter and Rogue subclasses, or have the option of multiclassing him to a Fighter/Priest.

 

If we were making him into a pure Cipher, then I could see more of an issue as he'd no longer have any kind of Fighter archetype about him, but even then, all we're asking is for it to be optional for people who are happy to have lore inconsistencies in their game.

 

And you won't even give us that.

 

> if you don't like the perfect viable companions as-is, you do have the option o' creating hirelings.

 

This has already been addressed.

 

I don't know how you can even write this with a straight face.  It's extremely obvious why players want to be able to customize companions over creating their own hirelings.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Yosharian

[Boeroer]

Gromnir was arguing from the developer's perspective and made some valid points why Obsidian better not include Priest into Edér's portfolio.

 

I also would have liked to be able to chose Fighter/Priest of Eothas for him or even Fighter/Fellow of St. Waidwen Martyr - but I understand that covering the writing for those options would be a pain in the oops.

[Yosharian]

Gromnir was arguing from the developer's perspective and made some valid points why Obsidian better not include Priest into Edér's portfolio.

 

I also would have liked to be able to chose Fighter/Priest of Eothas for him or even Fighter/Fellow of St. Waidwen Martyr - but I understand that covering the writing for those options would be a pain in the oops.

All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why the writing would have to change if Eder was say, an Unbroken, as opposed to a standard Fighter.

[Messier-31]

It's extremely obvious why players want to be able to customize companions over creating their own hirelings.

 

Wait, what? Companions shouldn't be customizable too much. Do you customize people you meet in real life? No, they are people with minds of their own, just like companions in a game. Do whatever you want with their inventory, change their colours, pick out of 3 possible class options (this is a lot!)... what more do you want? Hirelings, this is what you want.

[Yosharian]

 

It's extremely obvious why players want to be able to customize companions over creating their own hirelings.

 

Wait, what? Companions shouldn't be customizable too much. Do you customize people you meet in real life? No, they are people with minds of their own, just like companions in a game. Do whatever you want with their inventory, change their colours, pick out of 3 possible class options (this is a lot!)... what more do you want? Hirelings, this is what you want.

 

 

Why shouldn't we have the option of customizing them if we want?  How does me having the option ruin your game experience in any way?

 

> Hirelings, this is what you want.

 

Jesus wept.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Yosharian

[Valmy]

 

 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't we have the option of customizing them if we want?  How does me having the option ruin your game experience in any way?

 

 

 

Entirely depends on how that option is implemented and what impact it has on the rest of the game. It may. I don't know.

 

Personally I am not a huge fan of being able to designate the class of characters that are, not strictly speaking, my characters but NPCs. But hey we can already choose what they take when they level up. Since we do have it, I actually kind of like the fact the choice is limited as it adds a strategic and RP consideration, I will think about how each one suits the character as I know him or her vs. what I need from a party composition perspective.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Valmy

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why shouldn't we have the option of customizing them if we want?  How does me having the option ruin your game experience in any way?

 

 

 

Entirely depends on how that option is implemented and what impact it has on the rest of the game. It may. I don't know.

 

Personally I am not a huge fan of being able to designate the class of characters that are, not strictly speaking, my characters but NPCs. But hey we can already choose what they take when they level up. Since we do have it, I actually kind of like the fact the choice is limited as it adds a strategic and RP consideration, I will think about how each one suits the character as I know him or her vs. what I need from a party composition perspective.

 

I, on the other hand, am a huge fan of it, because I can choose characters based on whether I like their personality or not rather than whether they fit into my party mechanically.

[Messier-31]

Why shouldn't we have the option of customizing them if we want?  How does me having the option ruin your game experience in any way?

 

Why shouldn't we have the option to customize the NPC's? The antagonists? The level design? The lore?

 

Spoiler alert: because it's prederetmined by the developers, locked, a given thing. Deal with it.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Messier-31

[Boeroer]

All I'm asking for is an explanation as to why the writing would have to change if Eder was say, an Unbroken, as opposed to a standard Fighter.

Yes, I get that. But that was not was Gromnir was talking about. He adressed the priest thing. And I think he made some valid points why this is not happening.

 

I think a fighter subclass for Edér would be no problem. Can't say why this shouldn't be a possibility as long as it doesn't interfere with the character. Edér being an Assassin or Trickster is a pretty far stretch - but Devoted, Unbroken, Black Jacket or Street Fighter - why not?

Maybe there's some (yet unrevealed) lore connected to the subclasses (like: where they stem from) which lets them collide with the character of Edér.

 

Also I didn't see any concrete statement from Josh that subclasses for companions like Edér or Aloth are generally out. I mean sure: other companions will have fixed unique subclasses because it's an integral part of their writing, like Pallegina, Xoti and others. But I didn't read anything about that Edér can't pick a fighter subclass. But maybe I missed that. Or: maybe he has an unique subclass as well - like Serafen has. I doubt it, but that would be nice.

Edited February 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[Yosharian]

 

Why shouldn't we have the option of customizing them if we want?  How does me having the option ruin your game experience in any way?

 

Why shouldn't we have the option to customize the NPC's? The antagonists? The level design? The lore?

 

Spoiler alert: because it's prederetmined by the developers, locked, a given thing. Deal with it.

 

 

My what a lovely straw man.  Are you going to give him a name?

[Yosharian]

Also I didn't see any concrete statement from Josh that subclasses for companions like Edér or Aloth are generally out.

 

 

It was in one of the links Blotter posted

[Boeroer]

Ok thanks, I have to look into it.

 

Edit: I read it. Maybe they change their minds about some non-unique subclasses that wouldn't interfere with the writing (like Streetfighter instead of plain rogue as I said).

Edited February 27, 2018 by Boeroer

[JerekKruger]

Wait, what? Companions shouldn't be customizable too much. Do you customize people you meet in real life? No, they are people with minds of their own, just like companions in a game. Do whatever you want with their inventory, change their colours, pick out of 3 possible class options (this is a lot!)... what more do you want? Hirelings, this is what you want.

So it's okay to choose which of three different class combinations a companion has, what abilities they learn at level up, and what weapons and armour they use, but going beyond that crosses some invisible line of character autonomy?

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

Edit: I read it. Maybe they change their minds about some non-unique subclasses that wouldn't interfere with the writing (like Streetfighter instead of plain rogue as I said).

 

i'm here as hell for streetfighter Iselmyr

[Messier-31]

 

Wait, what? Companions shouldn't be customizable too much. Do you customize people you meet in real life? No, they are people with minds of their own, just like companions in a game. Do whatever you want with their inventory, change their colours, pick out of 3 possible class options (this is a lot!)... what more do you want? Hirelings, this is what you want.

So it's okay to choose which of three different class combinations a companion has, what abilities they learn at level up, and what weapons and armour they use, but going beyond that crosses some invisible line of character autonomy?

 

From a designers point of view: yes.

[JerekKruger]

Gromnir's point is a good one. The way I've interpreted priests in Pillars is not (necessarily) as a formal clergy but rather any character whose faith becomes the channel for their power. In this case I wouldn't envisage Eder going through an initiation in a formal church but rather that his faith is so strengthened that his prayers start to have effects.

 

If, however, the devs don't see it this way then I can understand why they'd to preclude the option. Doesn't explain why they'd disallow, say, subclasses though.

 

In any case I'll mod my game if I want to (both for priesthood and subclasses). Not a big deal really, though people's objection to other people's wants is plain bizarre to me.