The Political Quinceañera Thread

[Ben No.3]

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/opinion/my_view/what-are-commonsense-gun-laws/article_426e1958-3e0b-534b-b539-3403e4ae0816.html

 

"Common sense means quit attacking the gun, which is just a tool, and go after the person (or people) responsible for the violence. Enforce the laws that already exist. Lock up the felons in possession of firearms for life with no parole. Elect judges who aren’t soft on criminals and are willing to punish the perpetrators harshly and with lengthy prison sentences.

Bring back the death penalty and execute the worthless scum plaguing our streets. Quit giving them the luxurious accommodations of prison life paid for by hard-earned American tax dollars."

 

I know this technically is a pars pro toto-fallacy, but I don't quite trust a news outlet that considers American prison life to be luxurious, even if this is a opinion article. Plus, it doesn't seem like that great of an idea to make gang members as afraid as possible from the state. Shouldn't there rather be efforts to help rehabilitate them? Ultimately, I'd assume the vast majority of criminals are more tragic than evil characters. To be honest, I don't think there'd be many cases where criminals are criminals not due to either surroundings or mental illness; though the latter is, of course, most likley, a result of the former. But if criminality is something that happens to people, rather than that they choose to become criminally active, then that indicates significant structural problems. But the race- and povertydrums have been beaten.

[Gromnir]

"Quit giving them the luxurious accommodations of prison life paid for by hard-earned American tax dollars."

 

 

 

...

 

had to double check to make sure we read correct.  if the American prisons which is housing violent offenders is deserving "luxury" description, then am thinking we found the root o' most crime in the US.  if for the ordinary citizen life nowadays is so harsh, so soul crushing such that pelican bay and folsom is comparative luxurious, then we weep for the American dream, 'cause is already dead.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps "guns kill people" bit largely ignores the reality o' lack o' viable deterrent, particular for massacre shooters, but also for the largest identifiable segment o' gun violence victims: suicides.  add accident?  moment o' passion or stupidity? etc.  is many gun deaths which would be impacted not at all if sentence were a one billion year term in the pit o' despair And have your lips chewed off by robot weasels with jagged rusted teeth. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

:LOL, I didn't realize Ben was quoting in the first paragraph. All I could think is "OK who's got Ben's password?"

 

Now then, on to what brings me here today. I'm not going to dive into the minutia of gun control and stuff. It's been done to death. We all know where we stand and no one is budging. We were having a conversation about the student perpetrated school shooting  at work this morning and our department head (who is the smartest person in any room she walks into IMO) brought up a point. All of the students who did this had something in common: they were socially isolated and were not well treated, and often bullied, by their peers. Her take on it is the lesson to be learned here is for kids to treat each other with kindness and respect. That treating the kids that "don't fit in" with inclusion, friendliness, and respect will go a long way to alleviating social isolation.

 

I have to say she has a point. The problem is kids are nasty little S.O.B.s by nature. To change that would be the undertaking of a generation or more. Humans often don't treat each other well. When you get to adulthood it's a little better. People are not naturally friendly but they are usually polite. Not talking about online... that's a whole other thing. I am certain teaching kids to treat each other with kindness and respect might actually help. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you"... I'm certain I've read that somewhere. But I'm pretty sure that book is banned from schools, more is the pity.

 

On thing about her idea, it costs nothing, takes freedom and property from no one, and might help kids turn into better adults. If you think about it, the firearms have always been there. And they used to be a LOT easier to get. But school mass shootings, by students in particular, is new. It does beg the questions "What has changed?"

[Hurlshort]

Just to note, the bible is not banned in schools. I have a couple different versions in my class. Judeo-Christian principals are part of the curriculum, as are Islamic and Buddhist ones.

[Guard Dog]

Well, that was meant to be more sarcastic than factual

[smjjames]

Pretty sure that proverb isn't restricted to the bible, theres probably similar meaning proverbs if you just look around.

[Chilloutman]

you can´t rehabilitate someone who don´t want to be rehabilitated

[Gfted1]

Cain slew Abel over jealously. Coincidence?

[Gromnir]

The problem is kids are nasty little S.O.B.s by nature. 

 

pretty much explains the root problem, which ain't actual changed much since Gromnir were in school.  

 

as for school violence and sob kids, am thinking is worth observing how many o' the adolescent school shooters is from families which ain't norman rockwell fodder.  hardly a surprise, eh? single parents. absent parents. working parents. a couple generations past and it would be typical for mom to be stay-at-home, and divorce were far less common.  parenting were not a weekend and evenings gig a mere 30 years past.  some 21st century parents maybe see their kids one weekend a month and perhaps a bit longer during summer vacation.  no nightly sit down dinners where mom or dad ask billy "what happend at school today?" 

 

is not a shock when the sob kids is functional rearing themselves and often flubbing the job. am actual a bit surprised so many 21st century kids turn their lives 'round rather than ending up in prison, or worse, as millennials with entitlement issues.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

"The problem is kids are nasty little S.O.B.s by nature."

 

Then why give them guns.

[Maedhros]

Kids are awesome. Kids want nothing more than to have fun, explore, play, and learn about the world. That's my experience as a kindergarten teacher.

 

It's the grownups who are the problem. Far too many parents don't know anything about parenting, even though many of them mean well. Modern kindergarten pedagogy makes sense, but most people seem to not be able to set positive boundaries for their kids. Too many refuse to acknowledge any sort of negative feeling the child has, it's no wonder they grow up to be so stressed as youths. Worst of all are the ones who just give them an iPad at the first sign of trouble...

[Guard Dog]

Kids are awesome. Kids want nothing more than to have fun, explore, play, and learn about the world. That's my experience as a kindergarten teacher.

 

It's the grownups who are the problem. Far too many parents don't know anything about parenting, even though many of them mean well. Modern kindergarten pedagogy makes sense, but most people seem to not be able to set positive boundaries for their kids. Too many refuse to acknowledge any sort of negative feeling the child has, it's no wonder they grow up to be so stressed as youths. Worst of all are the ones who just give them an iPad at the first sign of trouble...

Forget licensing guns, you should have to take a training course and get a license to have a kid!

[Ben No.3]

I haven’t visited school in the US, but I have spend some time in the UK (which I’ve heard has a similar climate) and, of course, Germany. So I might as well rant a bit about the flaws of schooling.

 

There is a special kind of tragedy surrounding school work. The subjects tackled are all important, have the potential to spark our interests or even touch us deeply. The people sitting in a classroom will, in all likelihood, never again spend this much time understanding literature, philosophy, history, the sciences, etc. And this makes sense - adolescence is an extremely important time, as many of life’s great questions appear here for the first time. So one might hope that school takes the chance to educate the pupils accordingly, allowing them to gain great insight at an early age. And looking at the topics or the authors talked, one might even get the impression that this is indeed the case.

 

It isn’t, however. It is true that the students spend considerable time with complex subjects, yet the subject at hand is de facto irrelevant, because it is not the reason why students are at school. Instead, grades rule. Everything else at school must subordinate itself to these masters. And the masters are sovereign - that is to say, disconnected from whatever subject claims to be taught. But the subjects are little more than empty shells. They serve merely as a mean to an end; when, in fact, the should be both. But the emptiness of the subject is translated into an emptiness of work. Whatever the student learns appears ultimately irrelevant to him, because it is. Students spend hours with Shakespeare solely for the sake of grades. Of course, this makes Shakespeare irrelevant - they might as well be studying molluscs. What matters is their ability to reproduce what they learn according to arbitrary standards. Yet, this judgement is all that ever counts in school.

 

When the work is done for the grade, the students work is no longer his work; that is, an expression of his ability, talent or character. It is merely a method to archive a grade he is dependent upon. A grade which can’t help but to fail to represent the genuine value of the students work (a flaw inherent in the arbitrariness of the grading system). His work is thus no longer part of the student. Instead, it is a product, that he has produced yet that he holds no power or influence above. On the contrary, the product, through the grade, is immensely powerful. Summarised in one sentence, school work is highly alienated, devoid of any sense or meaning.

 

This Problem extents further. It affects every aspect of school, because it affects what school fundamentally consists of: the work students do. Grades can’t help but to be competitive. In a sense, the competition replaces the meaning the work has lost due to grading. A grade on its own means nothing, but in comparison to other grades, one is capable to interpret meaning into it. Mind you, the grades are still essentially arbitrary, but that doesn’t matter. The grades don’t have to mean anything to gain meaning through competition. We could say that competition gives grades a self serving purpose. A purpose that is of course gladly accepted by everyone - meaningless work is unbearable - but that does nothing but to force children and young adults into a fierce competition; if only for lack of alternative.

 

Adolescents find themselves in a place where their work is devoid of any meaning other than to be better than others for the sake of being better. Frankly, I do not find it remotely surprising that such a bleak life breaks people. There is a very good German drama called Woyzeck. Its about a young, poor soldier who ultimately falls victim to humiliating circumstances. In an act of desperation, he kills his girlfriend, the mother of his son. Yet, if we examine the drama closely, we have to admit that Woyzeck is innocent, that he never had a chance and that this random spike of violence was the unavoidable reaction to his powerlessness in the face of a cruel world.

Perhaps we ought to look at the school shooters not as evil, but as tragic characters. Victims themselves, just as much as those they shoot. The violence may well be just a failed attempt to affirm ones own power to act outside of the bleakness of education, after years of exposure to and suffering under its system. If a shooter is a broken individual, that what breaks him is at fault.

[Gfted1]

/feelsgoodman

[Ben No.3]

Me personally, I am somewhat teaching myself how to learn for its own sake. Having some degree of success with it, so I’m genuinely happy in school. At times, anyway.

[Guard Dog]

Ben I was more referring to the social pressures rather than academic pressures. But you do bring up an interesting point. However, the world we live in is an outcome driven machine. I don't know any other way to quantify a student's understanding of a subject other than testing with a result that counts. How else do they demonstrate they have mastered a subject? We could dump the graduated grading system for a simple Pass or Fail grading system I guess? It would serve the same purpose.

 

 

Perhaps we ought to look at the school shooters not as evil, but as tragic characters. Victims themselves, just as much as those they shoot. The violence may well be just a failed attempt to affirm ones own power to act outside of the bleakness of education, after years of exposure to and suffering under its system. If a shooter is a broken individual, that what breaks him is at fault.

 

OK, right here you went completely off the rails. Shooting people who are not at present harming you or yours IS just evil. There is only one reason that justifies the use of deadly force, the defense of self, family, home against an imminent threat. Even the play you cited as an example, the protagonist created his own downfall. He murder's his wife because she cheated on him. It's been done a million times and not once was there any virtue or sympathy in it. There is one obligation we all have to each other. Just one. And the obligation is not to batsht crazy and kill your fellow humans. 

[Ben No.3]

Na, the play isn’t a simple jealously drama. Büchner, the author, was a hard leftist and believed people to be heavily influenced by society. His aim for Woyzeck was, as I recall, to create a piece in which one can argue for Woyzecks innocence.

 

And what I am trying to say is that no one simply “is” evil. Every act of evil, or good, has traceable causes in the actors psychology, his social condition, etc. If a society produced gun shootings Oma regular basis, saying there might be a problem with the society doesn’t seem like too far of a fetch.

[Hurlshort]

You can be a tragic character and be evil at the same time. I'd imagine it would be hard to get to the latter without the former. 

[Guard Dog]

I don't see how Woyzeck could be seen as innocent by anyone. Yeah he's has some s----y things happen. Having your wife cheat on you is bad. Getting you ass kicked by the man she's cheating with is worse. But when he pulled a knife on her he wasn't doing it because "society" forced him. He did because he was selfish. His anger and his humiliation meant more to him than her life. He left his own child an orphan because he was selfish. Some might call that tragic. For the wife and child certainly. But for Woyzeck? F--k him.

 

Same thing with the Parkland shooter. Yes he had been dealt a s-----y hand. The only people who loved him apparently passed away.The people at the school were not nice to him. He was an altogether sympathetic figure until he took  a rifle to a school and shot 17 people, 16 of which he didn't even know. Society didn't make him do it. He did because he was selfish SOB and he's gonna go show them! F--k him.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Guard Dog

[Ben No.3]

Maybe I should clarify: I’m not denying actions can be evil (as in, morally wrong), I’m just questioning wether there is such a thing as a fundamentally evil person.

[Gromnir]

Kids are awesome. Kids want nothing more than to have fun, explore, play, and learn about the world. That's my experience as a kindergarten teacher.

 

 

hogwash.  w/o constant parental supervision and correction, your kindergarten is  lord o' the flies meets hieronymus bosch painting by the second missed nap time. is a Fact that kids brain develop in stages, albeit some reach stages quicker than others. little kids is not all sunshine and smiles.  got it reversed. adults tend to project goodness onto children, and they do indeed have the potential for goodness, but particular for little crumb snatchers, even the capacity for ethical decision making doesn't develop until teens and even tweenties.

 

we will agree many parents don't know how to parent, but a large part o' that is 'cause the current generation o' parents were themselves raised so fundamental different.  kids ain't born with parenting skills, and the last couple generations has been learning increasing less 'bout parenting for reasons we already identified.  tv and internet is increasing raising kids more than is working moms and absentee dads. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps edit:  were unfair o' us to claim "most" parents don't know how to parent.  were indulging in the kinda hyperbole we frequent chastise others.  corrected. 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Gromnir

[Guard Dog]

I'd say yes there are, but they are rare. There are people that delight in the misery of other people. That find enjoyment in sadism (the real kind not the kinky kind) and that do harm or worse to others purely for their own pleasure.  If that isn't evil I don't know what is.

 

Maybe that bastard in Parkland isn't irredeemably evil. I certainly don't think he should be executed. But we certainly don't want him among us anymore. What he did, he did because he wanted to. No one compelled him.

[HoonDing]

"Adolescents find themselves in a place where their work is devoid of any meaning other than to be better than others for the sake of being better."

 

Good thing adult life is a whole lot different.

[Ben No.3]

I'd say yes there are, but they are rare. There are people that delight in the misery of other people. That find enjoyment in sadism (the real kind not the kinky kind) and that do harm or worse to others purely for their own pleasure. If that isn't evil I don't know what is.

 

Maybe that bastard in Parkland isn't irredeemably evil. I certainly don't think he should be executed. But we certainly don't want him among us anymore. What he did, he did because he wanted to. No one compelled him.

„want“ seems like a very socially driven instinct to me

[Guard Dog]

 

I'd say yes there are, but they are rare. There are people that delight in the misery of other people. That find enjoyment in sadism (the real kind not the kinky kind) and that do harm or worse to others purely for their own pleasure. If that isn't evil I don't know what is.

 

Maybe that bastard in Parkland isn't irredeemably evil. I certainly don't think he should be executed. But we certainly don't want him among us anymore. What he did, he did because he wanted to. No one compelled him.

„want“ seems like a very socially driven instinct to me

 

As a noun maybe. As a verb (in English at least in Deutsche I believe they are two separate words) want is the epitome of self.