Big patches after release?

[BijaT]

Do you guys belive they will bring out big patches after release?

 

The main thing that got me stop playing the first game was when a system that one or more of my party members relied upon totaly changed and i woud have to scrap the character or accept a gimped character.

 

I do realize that a expansion may throw the balance off and i do guess i have to accept that. I am however worried that the might/reslove change may lead to major patches after released if they don´t properly fix it in beta. I also hope the multi class feature won´t lead to needed major patches aswell...

 

Otherwise it seems most basic systems are the same, most stats/abilitys/classes do similar things.

 

I do realize the best way to go about this problem is simply wait a year or two before starting to play the game. Started play the first one first a few month after last expansion.

 

Ppl may say that i will be done before the big patches roll out, but im often slow with these games and often play maby 1/4th, wait a few months then play another 1/4th etc and i do have a full time job and other stuff so even when i game i can´t dedicate that mutch time allways.

 

The reason i am alright with this stuff for the most part in MMO´s and other games with similar mechanics is becuse the new patch prob made your gear worthless and let you respec fully (not beeing able to respec attribute point´s make the respec partly garbage).

[dukeisaac]

If POE's development is any indication, its fairly certain there will be significant patching post-release. Probably not in the vein of patch 3.0, where lots of (welcome) change was introduced, but there will be at a minimum quite a bit of balancing. If this is an issue for you, I suggest waiting a bit. It would be a shame to drop a game because of a bit of necessary patching.

[rjshae]

My heuristic is to wait until the third patch release before playing a new game. By then most of the big rocks should have been cleared.

[Boeroer]

Patches after release? Count on it!

[TheisEjsing]

There absolutly will be. Sawyer is a big fan of post release tinkering with his games, and he has clearly stated, that if you don't want games that are rebalanced after release, then don't play his games.

Edited January 21, 2018 by TheisEjsing

[Boeroer]

I think it also adds a bit of motivation for replaying.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, and wisely, I've learned to hurry up with any playthrough that matters to me, so that no patch gobbles it up and spits it out.

Edited January 21, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[algroth]

If POE's development is any indication, its fairly certain there will be significant patching post-release. Probably not in the vein of patch 3.0, where lots of (welcome) change was introduced, but there will be at a minimum quite a bit of balancing. If this is an issue for you, I suggest waiting a bit. It would be a shame to drop a game because of a bit of necessary patching.

It did happen for Tyranny too, so I reckon there may be a future "3.0"-style patch lining up with the release of a DLC as well, depending on any player criticism the game may get (say this bit or that is underdeveloped and so on). Maybe even to add some features from stretch goals that were planned but not reached either, like fishing and new sea monsters, potentially. Though I also reckon that the devs aren't planning on making such a patch per se either - ideally it would of course be best to release a game as complete and bug-free as possible right out of the gate, instead of trickling the final touches over the next few patches instead.

[Ninjamestari]

A changing system is a sign of a lack of vision, so it all depends on how strong their vision for the classes are. I'm not in the beta, but judging from the Might/Str+Res discussion going on it seems that they've got no more vision than a blind-folded... blind thing. So expect them to screw up with something and change stuff early and often.

[algroth]

A changing system is a sign of a lack of vision, so it all depends on how strong their vision for the classes are. I'm not in the beta, but judging from the Might/Str+Res discussion going on it seems that they've got no more vision than a blind-folded... blind thing. So expect them to screw up with something and change stuff early and often.

 

My experience indicates the exact opposite is true: a vision is an ideal and the ideal doesn't always translate upon its first execution; trial and error, all whilst adapting and changing the approach, brings the product closer to the author's vision and original intention. If something is not working the way it is intended, trying out a new approach can be just the right way to solve the problem. I don't see how the Might/STR+RES discussion is a sign of lack of vision, merely an adaptation for the attributes system to work as closely to the desired goal as possible.

Edited January 21, 2018 by algroth

[Sedrefilos]

I bet they'll be. That said, I played the 1st one the moment it came out and had no problem whatsoever, no bugs no nothing.

[Wormerine]

I would have more of an issue if they wouldn’t patch it couple times. Better is good.

.

[BijaT]

I hope they allow you to run unupdated verson of the game then and don´t build the updating system into the game itself. If i recall correctly this is how most of ther other games are so i hope it still will be but lets see...

 

Then you can update whenever you want to =). Done this with some games and shoud had with PoE 1 but it totaly slipped my mind at the time.

[BijaT]

Also i am in no way agenst the design decision to patch the game and i do like it for the most part. Only i felt in PoE some updates really nerfed/buffed some builds and becuse you have no way of respecing etc i feel like i don´t want to continue. I do agree with 95% of you guys tho.

[smjjames]

I'd fully expect a few patches to come out to catch the inevitable bugs that get missed. I didn't play PoE1 at release, so, I didn't experience it when it was in it's early days.

[huang]

I for one love great patch support. I only hate the opposite. Gotta be honest, so far it never happened to me that a patch made my experience with a game worse.

 

But as far as Pillars 2 is concerned, I have a feeling that the sequel will have fewer bugs. 1 was so much tougher for them, having to build the engine alongside developing the game and learning everything from scratch. So there is the potential this time around, that at least the basics will be more solid.

 

I'm going to play it day 1 anyway, just can't wait for the game to come out.

[CottonWolf]

Plus, there's DLC, so they'll want post-release support to keep people playing so they'll buy it when it comes out. And if they have plans for a PoE3 (divine campaign, please), they'll want to keep goodwill.

[daven]

Plus, there's DLC, so they'll want post-release support to keep people playing so they'll buy it when it comes out. And if they have plans for a PoE3 (divine campaign, please), they'll want to keep goodwill.

Divine DLC for Dead Fire, and PoE3 just somewhere else in the world with new characters.

[Ninjamestari]

 

A changing system is a sign of a lack of vision, so it all depends on how strong their vision for the classes are. I'm not in the beta, but judging from the Might/Str+Res discussion going on it seems that they've got no more vision than a blind-folded... blind thing. So expect them to screw up with something and change stuff early and often.

 

My experience indicates the exact opposite is true: a vision is an ideal and the ideal doesn't always translate upon its first execution; trial and error, all whilst adapting and changing the approach, brings the product closer to the author's vision and original intention. If something is not working the way it is intended, trying out a new approach can be just the right way to solve the problem. I don't see how the Might/STR+RES discussion is a sign of lack of vision, merely an adaptation for the attributes system to work as closely to the desired goal as possible.

 

 

Or perhaps your analysis of your experience is just completely wrong. In fact, your argument sounds like it's not backed up by experience at all, rather just worthless rationalization. If you don't see how the Might/STR+RES debacle is a sign of lack of vision, then you really don't even see what the hell is vision. If you have a strong vision, you don't *need* to adapt it, because everything else naturally adapts to *it*. If you ever see true vision manifest, you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

EDIT: the teasing aside, you honestly don't seem to understand what vision is. Vision is sight, if you have vision you can *see* the answer, you don't have to experiment. Experimentation is precisely what you do when you don't have vision, because experimentation is a tool specifically aimed at *gaining* vision. What you're doing here is just "hmm, Vision is good, experimentation is also good, therefore vision is experimentation", and you're completely and utterly wrong.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

 

 

 In fact, your argument sounds like it's not backed up by experience at all, rather just worthless rationalization. If you don't see how the Might/STR+RES debacle is a sign of lack of vision, then you really don't even see what the hell is vision. If you have a strong vision, you don't *need* to adapt it, because everything else naturally adapts to *it*. If you ever see true vision manifest, you'll know what I'm talking about.

 

In the dev team and project sense of "vision", I suspect you are wrong. What you mistake for "vision" then so easily slips into those rather murky waters of single-mindedness, tunnel vision, and myopia, clouded deep down by even worse stuff, like prejudices and fanaticism. "My way or the high way" is rarely a great creative hotbed for a big team coming together and encouraging their various strengths. Sure, your take on it happens now and then, but the results vary, to put it very diplomatically. On the other hand, a creative genius composing a single piece of music or painting, or a scientist thinking outside the box, then your idea of vision at least has some merit, but even in those cases, there are many horrific examples in history of "true visions manifest" that rather was all about a strong individual superposing herself/himself onto others, and then a "true vision" cult starts doing their leader's bidding, and yeah, you get the picture. And those who don't fit in, soon get to be the scapegoats. "It's their fault 'our' vision's not working!"

Edited January 22, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[TheisEjsing]

That sounds really nice. Clean and easy in an objectivist kind of way. In real life experimentation, and adaptability are often necessary if you are to execute any implementation of your visions. 

Edited January 22, 2018 by TheisEjsing

[Ninjamestari]

In the dev team and project sense of "vision", I suspect you are wrong. What you mistake for "vision" then so easily slips into those rather murky waters of single-mindedness, tunnel vision, and myopia, clouded deep down by even worse stuff, like prejudices and fanaticism. "My way or the high way" is rarely a great creative hotbed for a big team coming together and encouraging their various strengths. Sure, your take on it happens now and then, but the results vary, to put it very diplomatically. On the other hand, a creative genius composing a single piece of music or painting, or a scientist thinking outside the box, then your idea of vision at least has some merit, but even in those cases, there are many horrific examples in history of "true visions manifest" that rather was all about a strong individual superposing herself/himself onto others, and then a "true vision" cult starts doing their leader's bidding, and yeah, you get the picture. And those who don't fit in, soon get to be the scapegoats. "It's their fault 'our' vision's not working!"

 

I take it that you've never seen true vision then, and I see that you *really* are clueless about vision if you think historical ideologies have anything to do with it. I know that explaining vision to the blind is futile, Plato's cave comes to mind, but a vision *is* sight, you do not need to experiment to know if the grass is green, because you can *see* if it is. It's true that there are plenty of people who *think* they have vision, like the 'horrific examples of history' you mentioned that have pretty much always been the blind leading the blind. That's the problem for blind people, everyone can say they have vision, but if you do not have vision yourself, there's no way for you to tell which of those claims is true and which one is false, that's why you need to experiment.

 

That's the key to understanding vision, the more basic the things are you need to experiment with, the less you can pierce with your vision. In math for example, there are people who can just see the results a certain system will produce because they understand math, and then there are people who do not and therefore need to experiment and collect data to compensate their lack of vision. And in math, it's easier to test whether a vision is true or not. The same concept applies to game design, because games are essentially just logic and math: If you have vision then you can *see* what needs to be done and you do not have to experiment, if you don't have vision, you do have to experiment. What you're talking about is not experimenting even when you don't have vision, which is even worse than simply having no vision in the first place. So yay for experiments, they're a sign of no to low vision, but they're the right thing to do in such a situation. Although I suspect that Mr. Sawyer actually would have a good vision, based on what I've heard him say on his YouTube channel, he just doesn't trust in it enough to fully go through with it and that's why we get half-measures and compromises, or the others in the company don't trust his vision enough and he isn't strong enough to take charge.

 

EDIT: so in concrete terms, the stats and how they work and what they represent are the very basis of gameplay that everything else is build upon, they are the variables you play with, and in an RPG you cannot get on a more fundamental level than that. If you need to experiment on that level then you really are completely and utterly lost.

Edited January 22, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[Boeroer]

[algroth]

Ninja, if you ever come across an artist that has a vision as fully realized and absolute as the one you describe, where *every* decision has been thought out preemptively and *every* detail forethought before a production stage, you let me know, because in my years of experience so far working with artists in several media as well as in my own personal incursions into each I have yet to meet even *evidence* of such an artist existing. Both between people I have met and worked with, and with the artists I know about merely from consuming and learning about each medium. When people speak of artistic vision, they speak of an individual or collective perspective that guides and informs the decisions made regarding a certain work so as to define and configure the aesthetic, narrative and discourse of a work around that perspective and what is wished to be told. And by guiding and informing them I mean determining whether doing X or Y is a good idea or the right thing to best approach that ideal, and what might be a bad idea - but you get to trying "X or Y" through experimentation, and determining whether they work or not through trial and error. They *never* mean "this artist knows exactly what to do every time ever" - that is quite simply *not* how vision or any artistic process I've encountered works, at all.

 

Moreover, the Might/STR+RES debate is such a *minor* element in the greater scheme of things that it's hardly worth framing a discussion on the presence or lack of vision in this project around at all. Josh's goals with regards to the attribute system in Pillars have been thoroughly explained in this video. With the new concentration system being implemented, resolve's overall impact feels negligible compared to the rest of the attributes and thus has become a dump stat, exactly what Josh wants to avoid. The ideal as per his vision is to create a system with no clear dump stats, and thus the change, even if it marks a departure from the original game, is in fact *informed* by this ideal. Ultimately however, the point is simply that whether "might" or "strength" make it into the game, this aspect is hardly so critical so as to say the game is "lacking vision" or any such thing.

Edited January 22, 2018 by algroth

[daven]

A guy named William Shakesman once said, 'Brevity is the soul of wit'.